Abortion

Abortion must always come down to a legal discussion and that being the case, the issue of personhood is not the weakest, but one of the most iron clad.

No. I meant that personhood based on the human genome is the weakest.

In a court of law, if a dispute arises between sides over what a word means, the legal dictionary comes out and the matter is decided based on what the dictionary says. Refer to any legal dictionary and look up the word person. The definition invariably states that a person is a human being (or a particular type of corporate entity that is treated like a human being). Since, in the eyes of the law the terms human being and person are interchangable, there is little argument to be made on the subject of personhood.

I direct you to post #579.

On another note, propositional logic may either be rhetorical or mathematical. Paradoxes occur mostly from the rhetorical variety precisely because of the ambiguity inherent in the human language.

So, it is not at all unreasonable to require the application of logical rigor in the meaning of 'person', whether in the legal or common sense.

Philosophical slight of hand with regard to personhood as practiced by the pro choice side of the argument is no more than a dodge designed precicely to distract from the fact that in a court of law where this issue will ultimately be decided, the issue of personhood has already been decided.

No philosophical sleight of hand, I assure you.

I am talking about a fundamental epistemological criterion - a criterion even the law is obliged to conform to.
 
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No. I meant that personhood based on the human genome is the weakest.

There is no need to try to make the argument that personhood is based on the genome so that is not the basis for my position.

My position is much like a tripod. The first leg is the proposition that this nation was founded on the idea that we come into being with certain rights and the right to live is the first and foremost of them and it is the responsibility of the government to protect those rights, not dole them out. If one lives in a nation in which one's rights come from government, then this position might be hard to grasp, but here, in the US, the principle purpose of government is to protect the rights that we came into being with.

The second leg of my position is biological. We are human beings from the time we are concieved. This is not a point that can be argued against with anything that even resembles credibility. We are human beings no matter how young and immature we are.

The third leg of my position is based in the law. In the eyes of the law, the terms person and human being are interchangable and all persons/human beings in the US are entitled to the protection of the 14th amendment. Roe was decided on faulty information and in his majority decision, justice blackmun acknowledged that should a case for the personhood of the unborn ever be made, that roe will collapse in upon itself as unborns, being persons, would be protected by the 14th amendment. Not only do all legal dictionaries state explicitly that person and human being are one in the same, but a growing body of legal precedent exists that establishes the personhood of the unborn. People are in jail today having been charged, tried for, and convicted of killing unborns in the course of killing their mothers. In this country, one can not be convicted of either manslaughter or murder unless one has killed a person. This may be an unintended consequence of those decisions, but it is what it is.

If I had to make my argument on nothing more than the genome, I probably wouldn't involve myself in it as my case would be as much a house of cards as the pro choice side's.

On another note, propositional logic may either be rhetorical or mathematical. Paradoxes occur mostly from the rhetorical variety precisely because of the ambiguity inherent in the human language.

Which is precisely why my position isn't philosophical in nature. The leg of my position that is founded upon the idea that we come into being with certain rights may have been philosophical at the time of the founding of the country, but at this point, an entire government and set of laws is built upon it and to deny the idea at this point would be to deny everything that has been built upon the idea. In short, it would be to deny the very legitimacy of the US.

So, it is not at all unreasonable to require the application of logical rigor in the meaning of 'person', whether in the legal or common sense.

Only if your position is one that requires that you attempt to unilatarally redefine words. Logical rigor was thoroughly applied to the word person before it ever showed up in the first legal dictionary as a synonym for "human being". An "logical rigor" applied at this point in an attempt to redefine the word is sophistry at best.

No philosophical sleight of hand, I assure you.

Of course it is. If there were a real and valid argument to be made on the pro choice side, words would not need to be redefined to support this particular case. Feel free to prove that there is no philosophical slight of hand on the pro choice side of the argument if you wish. You can do that by fashioning an argument that denies the right to live to unborns that would equally apply to those who are already born and be as widely accepted.

I am talking about a fundamental epistemological criterion - a criterion even the law is obliged to conform to.

Once again, fashion an argument that denies the right to live to the unborn that you can apply equally to all human beings. An inability to fashion such an argument exposes the specious nature of the entire line of thought. Or demonstrate conclusively that there is some point at which the offspring of two human beings is something other than a human being, in which case, you would be relieved of the necessity to fashion an argument that applies equally to all human beings.
 
There is no need to try to make the argument that personhood is based on the genome so that is not the basis for my position.

My position is much like a tripod. The first leg is the proposition that this nation was founded on the idea that we come into being with certain rights and the right to live is the first and foremost of them and it is the responsibility of the government to protect those rights, not dole them out. If one lives in a nation in which one's rights come from government, then this position might be hard to grasp, but here, in the US, the principle purpose of government is to protect the rights that we came into being with.

As I said - jurisprudence is based largely on natural law.

No political philosophy advocating natural law - neither john locke's treatise on civil government nor montesque's natural rights of man - ever gave a rigorous attempt to define person within the context of natural law. It is accepted intuitively. The most compelling basis of natural law, ironically, comes from st thomas acquainas in his summa theologia. For him, natural law is an immutable order in creation - which is exactly like saying 'because god made it so'.

The second leg of my position is biological. We are human beings from the time we are concieved. This is not a point that can be argued against with anything that even resembles credibility. We are human beings no matter how young and immature we are.

As I said, this is circular. It attempts to prove that the offspring of human beings is a human being WITHOUT actually defining what a human being is.

And since natural law has taken the definition for granted, suggesting that it is 'self-evident' or 'intuitive', then the question necessarily reverts to an epistemological inquiry.

What is the STANDARD for which we KNOW the existence of a human being? What ever standard is reached, it certainly cannot come from the human genome, as you candidly admitted here.

In the absence of a clearer retort, we are left with the cartesian epistemological standard of cogito ergo sum.

The third leg of my position is based in the law. In the eyes of the law, the terms person and human being are interchangable and all persons/human beings in the US are entitled to the protection of the 14th amendment. Roe was decided on faulty information and in his majority decision, justice blackmun acknowledged that should a case for the personhood of the unborn ever be made, that roe will collapse in upon itself as unborns, being persons, would be protected by the 14th amendment. Not only do all legal dictionaries state explicitly that person and human being are one in the same, but a growing body of legal precedent exists that establishes the personhood of the unborn. People are in jail today having been charged, tried for, and convicted of killing unborns in the course of killing their mothers. In this country, one can not be convicted of either manslaughter or murder unless one has killed a person. This may be an unintended consequence of those decisions, but it is what it is.

I understand legal precedent. I also know that it is not only dependent on a particular interpretation, it is also subject to judicial review. So, the more legal precedent only means the possibility that the courts erred is smaller, not that it is itself infallible proof.

And of course there are tons of absurd and archaic laws in existence today that no one even bothers to repeal or correct. Surely, they are considered legal precedents as well.

If I had to make my argument on nothing more than the genome, I probably wouldn't involve myself in it as my case would be as much a house of cards as the pro choice side's.

Which is precisely why my position isn't philosophical in nature. The leg of my position that is founded upon the idea that we come into being with certain rights may have been philosophical at the time of the founding of the country, but at this point, an entire government and set of laws is built upon it and to deny the idea at this point would be to deny everything that has been built upon the idea. In short, it would be to deny the very legitimacy of the US.

I am not denying the idea of human rights. I am questioning the CRITERIA by which you KNOW human existence. And if the entire legal system is built on the idea of the natural rights of man, it is all the more imperative that this criteria is defined infallibly.

Only if your position is one that requires that you attempt to unilatarally redefine words. Logical rigor was thoroughly applied to the word person before it ever showed up in the first legal dictionary as a synonym for "human being". An "logical rigor" applied at this point in an attempt to redefine the word is sophistry at best.

Im sorry but I have never encountered a political philosophy that subjected the idea of personhood to logical rigor. If I am simply misinformed, then you wouldn't mind posting it here, would you?

Of course it is. If there were a real and valid argument to be made on the pro choice side, words would not need to be redefined to support this particular case. Feel free to prove that there is no philosophical slight of hand on the pro choice side of the argument if you wish. You can do that by fashioning an argument that denies the right to live to unborns that would equally apply to those who are already born and be as widely accepted.

I have already demonstrated that your definition of personhood is at best paradoxical and at worst an outright fallacy. If you are familiar with rhetorical paradoxes, you would be aware that most of them arise from self-referencing statements - your definition being a good example of it.

In mathematical logic, self-referencing statements are easily seen and are NEVER allowed except, perhaps, for stating identity axioms.

Once again, fashion an argument that denies the right to live to the unborn that you can apply equally to all human beings. An inability to fashion such an argument exposes the specious nature of the entire line of thought. Or demonstrate conclusively that there is some point at which the offspring of two human beings is something other than a human being, in which case, you would be relieved of the necessity to fashion an argument that applies equally to all human beings.

I am employing dialectics in your argument. The question of personhood is an 'or' proposition or what is known in mathematics as excluded middle.

Exposing the weakness in your argument validates the opposite position.
 
numinus - the wheels are falling off your argument right here:

"As I said, this is circular. It attempts to prove that the offspring of human beings is a human being WITHOUT actually defining what a human being is. "

Are you really suggesting that you are not quite sure what a human being is? If you need a definition, one is readily available. Most common dictionaries as well as those of the scientific ilk define "human being" as a member of the genus Homo and the species Sapiens and the sub species Sapiens.
 
numinus - the wheels are falling off your argument right here:

"As I said, this is circular. It attempts to prove that the offspring of human beings is a human being WITHOUT actually defining what a human being is. "

Are you really suggesting that you are not quite sure what a human being is?

Do not be surprised with the question, since this the standard of logical rigor - the same logical rigor which you claim personhood was previously subjected to.

If you need a definition, one is readily available. Most common dictionaries as well as those of the scientific ilk define "human being" as a member of the genus Homo and the species Sapiens and the sub species Sapiens.

So, your epistemological basis is, in fact, the genome? A basis for personhood, that, form your own admission, is indefensible?

We are talking of a FUNDAMENTAL IMPERATIVE arising from the operation of natural law. Naturally, the word needs to be defined in the most logical manner. Otherwise, we may have left out other species arising from a common ancestor with homo sapiens. You are aware, of course, that in the level of genetic sequence, the line between genus and species are blurred.
 
Palerider,

Here is a thought experiment to subject your 'legal dictionary definition' to logical rigor.

Suppose you clone yourself, a procedure that is a form of asexual reproduction. This thought experiment is entirely plausible, the technology for which is available at the present time.

The question - is your clone a person?

From your 'legal definition', your clone is a person, an organism of the genus homo and specie sapiens.

But from the argument you have presented in this thread, your clone is NOT a person, since it is NOT the offspring of two human beings, and is GENETICALLY IDENTICAL to your sperm or a piece of skin from your butt.

Instantly, the epistemological standard of your whole argument is torn assunder - since your definition has led to a PARADOX OF THE EXCLUDED MIDDLE - something that IS AND ISN'T AT THE SAME TIME.
 
Palerider,

Here is a thought experiment to subject your 'legal dictionary definition' to logical rigor.

Suppose you clone yourself, a procedure that is a form of asexual reproduction. This thought experiment is entirely plausible, the technology for which is available at the present time.

The question - is your clone a person?

From your 'legal definition', your clone is a person, an organism of the genus homo and specie sapiens.

But from the argument you have presented in this thread, your clone is NOT a person, since it is NOT the offspring of two human beings, and is GENETICALLY IDENTICAL to your sperm or a piece of skin from your butt.

Instantly, the epistemological standard of your whole argument is torn assunder - since your definition has led to a PARADOX OF THE EXCLUDED MIDDLE - something that IS AND ISN'T AT THE SAME TIME.


Since, for a very short period of time, each and every one of us is capable of asexual reproduction, the clone is a person in the same manner as an identical twin which is also the product of asexual reproduction.

You are all over the board. Either we are discussing abortion or we are discussing cloning. If we are discussing abortion, the onus is upon you to fashion an argument for abortion that denies the right to live to all human beings equally and if we are discussing cloning, you need to start another thread.

And I never suggested that we are persons only because we are the offspring of two human beings. I stated that the offspring of two human beings is never anything but a human being. Quite a different statement. That is not to say that a human being can not come to being by any other route as in cloning or the asexual reproduction that results in identical twins.

I am afraid that you aren't going to be able to crack this nut. I have already tried to crack it from every angle imaginable. You see, I am a converted pro choicer and I tried every means possible to invalidate the very position I hold and it simply can't be done while remaining intellectually honest.

The thought experiment above is an example of the sort of intellectual dishonesty that is required. Your experiment is based on the idea that I have argued that we are human beings/persons because we are the offspring of two parents; but I never made any such argument. You set up a straw man argument that I never made and shot it down and then claim that you have defeated my argument. The only argument that I ever made with regard to personhood is the fact that according to every legal dictionary that I have been able to find, the word person is synonomous with human being.

Could it be that "paradox of the excluded middle" is a new term you have recently learned and are trying desperately to work it into a sentence?
 
Bravo. I love the logic of the argument.

Then you didn't notice that the logic was applied to a straw man erected by him for the express purpose of being shot down? And you give it a "bravo"? Before you congratulate a person on his logic, it is always advisable to check to see if said logic is indeed worthy of congratulations.
 
What??? No reputation points for the post???? Shame on you!

Just kidding.

Reputation points for shooting down a strawman of your own making?

Ok, I will give you a reputation point. It is a negative one, but since you specifically asked for it, here it is.
 
Since, for a very short period of time, each and every one of us is capable of asexual reproduction, the clone is a person in the same manner as an identical twin which is also the product of asexual reproduction.

You are all over the board. Either we are discussing abortion or we are discussing cloning. If we are discussing abortion, the onus is upon you to fashion an argument for abortion that denies the right to live to all human beings equally and if we are discussing cloning, you need to start another thread.

Actually, we are discussing the epistemological standard of human existence as it pertains to personhood - since it involves a fundamental imperative as an operation of natural law.

And I never suggested that we are persons only because we are the offspring of two human beings. I stated that the offspring of two human beings is never anything but a human being. Quite a different statement. That is not to say that a human being can not come to being by any other route as in cloning or the asexual reproduction that results in identical twins.

I really have no intention of going back on this thread to demonstrate what you did or didn't suggest. I distinctly remember you expounding on the difference between a chicken and an egg. The chicken, according to you, has a genetic makeup that is different from the hen, while the grocery store egg, is entirely that of the hen.

I would imagine that a debater of your caliber wouldn't resort to dishonesty yourself.

I am afraid that you aren't going to be able to crack this nut. I have already tried to crack it from every angle imaginable. You see, I am a converted pro choicer and I tried every means possible to invalidate the very position I hold and it simply can't be done while remaining intellectually honest.

There is no need to editorialize what is a simple and honest academic discussion.

The thought experiment above is an example of the sort of intellectual dishonesty that is required. Your experiment is based on the idea that I have argued that we are human beings/persons because we are the offspring of two parents; but I never made any such argument. You set up a straw man argument that I never made and shot it down and then claim that you have defeated my argument. The only argument that I ever made with regard to personhood is the fact that according to every legal dictionary that I have been able to find, the word person is synonomous with human being.

No. It was your claim that the idea of personhood has been subjected to logical rigor - proof of which you offered a dictionary definition 'genus homo, specie sapien, sub-specie sapien'.

Now, I have asked for an epistemological standard for human existence and you have not given any. Do I take it that your idea of logical rigor is nothing more than and intuitive assertion?

Could it be that "paradox of the excluded middle" is a new term you have recently learned and are trying desperately to work it into a sentence?

Philosophy 101, 22 years ago.

Is the paradox entirely unrelated to the discussion?
 
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Then you didn't notice that the logic was applied to a straw man erected by him for the express purpose of being shot down? And you give it a "bravo"? Before you congratulate a person on his logic, it is always advisable to check to see if said logic is indeed worthy of congratulations.

Well then, have you provided a clear standard for personhood, aside from a circular statement and innuendos about chicken, eggs and sperm, hmmm?

Where is the logical rigor in the statement 'the offspring of human beings is a human being', eh? Or do you suppose to conclude your argument with nothing but the premise you just stated?
 
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