Abortion doctor shot to death

Pandora said in reply to Mare: I don’t know what mood you were in when you typed this but its strange I can feel like a caring tone. A feeling I never get from anyone else on either side. I know my posts are blunt and harsh when talking about this topic and most people on the other side are also. Something felt different when reading your post, something I liked

Blunt/harsh...full of myth/lies and just plain biased bigotry and yet you rarely are correct and never ever apologize for your ignorant posts that defame a doctor who wasn't doing anything illegal, who was dragged through the muck/mire by someone wanting to take issue with his medical records that they were not entitled too and add to that the numerous physical/personal attacks that he had suffered in the past to continue to provide a medical service for women who had no where else to go. Jeez it must be nice up there on that 'pillar of righteousness'!!!

You judge so harshly and yet who anointed you with the 'JOB'???
 
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I am sure some of the babies had health issues. Some of them had downs syndrome but not all. Some were perfectly normal babies. His records were not accessible,
I don't mean to argumentative, but if his records have not been accessible, then how do you KNOW the status the babies involved?

I don’t know what mood you were in when you typed this but its strange I can feel like a caring tone. A feeling I never get from anyone else on either side. I know my posts are blunt and harsh when talking about this topic and most people on the other side are also. Something felt different when reading your post, something I liked :)
My mood was one of recognition that this is a devisive issue with a huge amount of pain and suffering on both sides. I'm not involved here to demonize anyone, I largely agree with you, but I also know that there are well-meaning people on the other side of the issue. You say you don't understand and the truth is that neither side can truly understand the other. I'm sorry for this clash of perceptions, but I am not in a position to tell anyone that they are completely wrong. There is no good answer here, it's like sending your son off to war for what you see as a good cause--maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but no matter what there is going to be a lot of misery on both sides.

I drove across the Sellwood bridge today and saw the teddy bear and flowers on the center span tied to a lamp post, and on the east end of the bridge there is a large collection of rememberances and flowers. It made me sad, it made me realize how little we know of the internal lives of others and what drives them to make the decisions they make. I felt enormous pity for the woman who was so (fill in your own word) that she threw her children off a bridge into the river. I tried to imagine what it would take to make me do that, and I couldn't. I was very sad for all the people involved.

I have a huge respect for women and I admire them for their fortitude and compassion. No matter what my personal feelings are I have to give them the right to control their own bodies. For too many centuries women have been chattel with no control, no autonomy, and no right to self-determination. I've never been pregnant, I can't possibly know what drives a woman to abort a child--so how can I tell her that her reason isn't good enough?
 
I don't mean to argumentative, but if his records have not been accessible, then how do you KNOW the status the babies involved?


Not argumentative at all, a good question actually.

Some of the Women, who had abortions through tiller later regretted it, and spoke out. That is how they knew there were no second opinions and the reasons were often faked in the paperwork. Some of their stories are sad.

Lots of people change their mind about abortion after they learn more about it.

The original woman in Roe vs. Wade marches faithfully and speaks out at many pro life events.
 
Not argumentative at all, a good question actually.

Some of the Women, who had abortions through tiller later regretted it, and spoke out. That is how they knew there were no second opinions and the reasons were often faked in the paperwork. Some of their stories are sad.

Lots of people change their mind about abortion after they learn more about it.

The original woman in Roe vs. Wade marches faithfully and speaks out at many pro life events.

and many pro life people change there mind, big deal. so your proof is the word of a few? well that is enough to justify killing right? I mean they said...thats all the proof need
 
I don't mean to argumentative, but if his records have not been accessible, then how do you KNOW the status the babies involved?


My mood was one of recognition that this is a devisive issue with a huge amount of pain and suffering on both sides. I'm not involved here to demonize anyone, I largely agree with you, but I also know that there are well-meaning people on the other side of the issue. You say you don't understand and the truth is that neither side can truly understand the other. I'm sorry for this clash of perceptions, but I am not in a position to tell anyone that they are completely wrong. There is no good answer here, it's like sending your son off to war for what you see as a good cause--maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but no matter what there is going to be a lot of misery on both sides.

I drove across the Sellwood bridge today and saw the teddy bear and flowers on the center span tied to a lamp post, and on the east end of the bridge there is a large collection of rememberances and flowers. It made me sad, it made me realize how little we know of the internal lives of others and what drives them to make the decisions they make. I felt enormous pity for the woman who was so (fill in your own word) that she threw her children off a bridge into the river. I tried to imagine what it would take to make me do that, and I couldn't. I was very sad for all the people involved.

I have a huge respect for women and I admire them for their fortitude and compassion. No matter what my personal feelings are I have to give them the right to control their own bodies. For too many centuries women have been chattel with no control, no autonomy, and no right to self-determination. I've never been pregnant, I can't possibly know what drives a woman to abort a child--so how can I tell her that her reason isn't good enough?

The woman had to have mental problems, a Bad combo of meds or something. It is not normal to throw your kids off bridges. I have pity for the woman too. I hurt just as much for her 4 year old son who died as I do other babies who were killed in a partial birth abortion. I don’t see them as human because their head came through a birth canal without being killed. To me both are equally human and deserving of life.

As for the abortion part of the topic, what do you think about at least making it more humane, I mean can’t we at least kill them as painless as we do a dog?
 
Blunt/harsh...full of myth/lies and just plain biased bigotry and yet you rarely are correct and never ever apologize for your ignorant posts that defame a doctor who wasn't doing anything illegal, who was dragged through the muck/mire by someone wanting to take issue with his medical records that they were not entitled too and add to that the numerous physical/personal attacks that he had suffered in the past to continue to provide a medical service for women who had no where else to go. Jeez it must be nice up there on that 'pillar of righteousness'!!!

You judge so harshly and yet who anointed you with the 'JOB'???

Was your post comedy?

You (as usual) spent your entire post bashing and judging me because you don’t agree with what I say, yet giving no real information on the actual topic...
Then at the end of your judging me, you complain I judge. Can you offer anything to the conversation besides bashing me?
 
Was your post comedy?

You (as usual) spent your entire post bashing and judging me because you don’t agree with what I say, yet giving no real information on the actual topic...
Then at the end of your judging me, you complain I judge. Can you offer anything to the conversation besides bashing me?

Could you bring anything to the forum that is a 'FACT/FACTUAL' regarding your continual posting {not only here but other topics} about Dr. Tillers ILLEGAL activity???

WHAT, NO! Your not able to do so; you just defame/post continual B.S./speak about the women that have had to call upon his services as if you know each and every one and you knew their 'REAL' motives.

YET YOU HAVE NO PROOF...Cease & Desist the B.S. about this Doctor and you'll have nothing from me but a discussion about the facts. YOU bring upon your own bilge water response by continuing on with your ignorance and obfuscating the truth!!!
 
I am sure some of the babies had health issues. Some of them had downs syndrome but not all. Some were perfectly normal babies. His records were not accessible, but now that he is dead we might be able to see some of the medical records with numbers instead of the women’s names.
Whew!.....no conflicting-statements, here.......

:rolleyes:
 
You should check to see if FAUX Noise is hiring interns.

:rolleyes:

OMG...ROLTFLMAO>>>>BINGO<<<< :D

Now that is a corporation that could/would be able to put those 'grandiose/falsehood/absurd' opinions that are totally baseless and asinine in their ability to defame and accuse without one iota of FACT...well, she would be highly sot after and could free lance with the 'National Enquirer' too!!! ;)
 
Could you bring anything to the forum that is a 'FACT/FACTUAL' regarding your continual posting {not only here but other topics} about Dr. Tillers ILLEGAL activity???

WHAT, NO! Your not able to do so; you just defame/post continual B.S./speak about the women that have had to call upon his services as if you know each and every one and you knew their 'REAL' motives.

YET YOU HAVE NO PROOF...Cease & Desist the B.S. about this Doctor and you'll have nothing from me but a discussion about the facts. YOU bring upon your own bilge water response by continuing on with your ignorance and obfuscating the truth!!!

Here you are doing it again. You are just bashing me for having an opinion that does not match yours and not giving any real information to the actual topic.

This is a political forum of opinion, if there were only right and wrong there would be nothing to talk about. We are talking about our opinions.

So I type my opinion of abortion and tiller and you reply with rants on me as a person.

Why can’t we just have a normal conversation?

I say something like this…

I do not believe it’s possible for a woman to have a partial birth abortion for the reasons of saving a woman’s life. Then I give my reasons…

No point in making a woman have a breech baby because having a baby breech is dangerous to the body of the woman, and there is no point in killing the child before its head comes out because that can do nothing to save a woman’s life. If a person needed a baby of 7 or 8 months out of their body ASAP, the doctor would induce labor or give a C Section and then get the child into an incubator. I give examples as to why my thinking is what it is and opinions about what I believe. Then you come back with stuff like what you typed above. Just crazed personal attacks.

Every post you make to me is just personal attacks if I bother you that much then don’t read my posts, or make points about the topic that helps your opinion and makes me have to re think mine. But just personally attacking me isn’t going to do anything but waste space in the forum.

Have you ever considered instead of attacking me as a person saying something like… I think you are wrong… I think that a woman can easily have a partial birth abortion to save her life and let me explain why I think this.. Then go on to explain why you think its possible, probable or what ever.
 
Sorry, Pandora...you can sugar coat your asinine posts about defaming/slandering the good Dr. Tiller all you wish too...but it doesn't nor will it ever change the FACT that you have called him some seriously heinous names and accused him of being a murderer and continue to slander him more by saying that his practice is/was illegal.

You have...NONE/NADA...fact to back any of that up and yet you continue to RANT and SPEW your form of vile B.S. and expect other adults to discuss this issue with you. ARE YOU OUT OF YOU MIND???

Never mind that was a purely rhetorical question. You are quite capable of ignoring my posts as well...but to counter balance your insane lies...I will not back down...you are wrong and your statements are lies.

Want an open discussion about this topic of Dr. Tiller...hmm

Seems as though I've tried to keep you on point before and that rabbit hole that you fall though when you can't explain your lying/lack of facts just as I attempted to do with the other topic that you could not / nor would you stay on point about...you seem oblivious to your own statements and the fallacies that you plaster in them!!!
 
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Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (Pub.L. 108-105, 117 Stat. 1201, enacted November 5, 2003, 18 U.S.C. § 1531[1], PBA Ban) is a United States law prohibiting a form of late-term abortion that the Act calls partial-birth abortion. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the term "partial-birth abortion" in the act pertains to a procedure that is medically called intact dilation and extraction.[2] Under this law, "Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both." The law was enacted in 2003, and in 2007 its constitutionality was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court, in the case of Gonzales v. Carhart.


This statute prohibits a method of abortion in the United States that it names "partial birth abortion". The procedure described in the statute is usually used in the second trimester,[3] from 18 to 26 weeks, some of which occur before and some of which occur after viability. The law itself contains no reference to gestational age or viability. The present statute is directed only at a method of abortion, rather than at preventing any woman from obtaining an abortion.[4]

The statute includes two findings of Congress:
“ (1) A moral, medical, and ethical consensus exists that the practice of performing a partial-birth abortion... is a gruesome and inhumane procedure that is never medically necessary and should be prohibited. (2) Rather than being an abortion procedure that is embraced by the medical community, particularly among physicians who routinely perform other abortion procedures, partial-birth abortion remains a disfavored procedure that is not only unnecessary to preserve the health of the mother, but in fact poses serious risks to the long-term health of women and in some circumstances, their lives. As a result, at least 27 States banned the procedure as did the United States Congress which voted to ban the procedure during the 104th, 105th, and 106th Congresses.



Despite its finding that "partial-birth abortion ... is ... unnecessary to preserve the health of the mother", the statute includes the following provision:

“ A defendant accused of an offense under this section may seek a hearing before the State Medical Board on whether the physician's conduct was necessary to save the life of the mother whose life was endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself. ”

This may have been a precaution in case the courts reject Congress's findings of fact. As Hadley Arkes commented, in an editorial in the National Review, "[t]hat provision went even further than the law was obliged to go, for as the American Medical Association testified during the hearings, a partial-birth abortion bore no relevance to any measure needed to advance the health of any woman."[5]

Citing the Supreme Court case of Doe v. Bolton, some pro-life supporters have asserted that the word "health" would render any legal restriction meaningless, because of the broad and vague interpretation of "health."[6] This was of particular concern when it came to anticipated arguments that such a definition would encompass "mental health," which some thought would inevitably be expanded by court decisions to include the prevention of depression or other non-physical conditions. Pro-choice groups object to this statute primarily because there is no exemption if the health of a woman is at risk.[7] Health is one of several reasons why women have chosen to get second trimester abortions, and then this particular procedure has been chosen for additional reasons.



Since it was first coined in 1995 by pro-life congressman Charles T. Canady, the term "partial birth abortion" has been used in numerous state and federal bills and laws, although the legal definition of the term is not always the same. The Partial-Birth

Abortion Ban Act defines "partial-birth abortion" as follows:

“ An abortion in which the person performing the abortion deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother, for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus; and performs the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living fetus. (18 U.S. Code 1531) ”

In the 2000 Supreme Court case of Stenberg v. Carhart, a Nebraska law banning "partial-birth abortion" was ruled unconstitutional, in part because the language defining "partial-birth abortion" was deemed vague.[8] In 2006, the Supreme Court in Gonzales v. Carhart found that the 2003 act "departs in material ways" from the Nebraska law and that it pertains only to a specific abortion procedure, intact dilation and extraction.[2] Some commentators have noted that the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act's language was carefully crafted to take into account previous rulings.[9] Although in most cases the procedure legally defined as "partial birth abortion" would be medically defined as "intact dilation and extraction", these overlapping terms do not always coincide. For example, the IDX procedure may be used to remove a deceased fetus (e.g. due to a miscarriage or feticide) that is developed enough to require dilation of the cervix for its extraction.[10] Removing a dead fetus does not meet the federal legal definition of "partial-birth abortion," which specifies that partial live delivery must precede "the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living fetus."[11] Additionally, a doctor may extract a fetus past the navel and then "disarticulate at the neck", which could fall within the terms of the statute even though it would not result in an intact body and therefore would not be an intact dilation and extraction.[12]

Legislative and judicial history

Congress first passed similar laws banning "partial-birth abortion" in December 1995, and again October 1997, but they were vetoed by President Clinton.[13]

In the House, the final legislation was supported in 2003 by 218 Republicans and 63 Democrats. It was opposed by 4 Republicans, 137 Democrats, and 1 independent. Twelve members were absent, 7 Republicans and 5 Democrats.[14] In the Senate the bill was supported by 47 Republicans and 17 Democrats. It was opposed by 3 Republicans, 30 Democrats, and 1 independent.[15] Two Senators were absent, Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-Tx.), a supporter of the bill, and Sen. John Edwards (D-NC), an opponent of the bill.

The only substantive difference between the House and Senate versions was the Harkin Amendment expressing support for Roe v. Wade.[16] A House-Senate conference committee deleted the Harkin Amendment, which therefore is absent from the final legislation.[1] On November 5, 2003, after being passed by both the House and the Senate, the bill was signed by President George W. Bush to become law.

The constitutionality of the law was challenged immediately after the signing. Three different U.S. district courts declared the law unconstitutional.[17][18][19] All three cited the law's omission of an exception for the health of the woman (as opposed to the life of the woman), and all three decisions cited precedent set by Roe v. Wade (1973) and Stenberg v. Carhart (2000). The federal government appealed the district court rulings, which were then affirmed by three courts of appeals.[20][21][22] The Supreme Court agreed to hear the Carhart case on February 21, 2006,[23] and agreed to hear the companion Planned Parenthood case on June 19, 2006.[24]

On April 18, 2007 the Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision, Gonzales v. Carhart, held that the statute does not violate the Constitution. Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the majority which included Justices Samuel Alito, Clarence Thomas, Antonin Scalia, and Chief Justice John Roberts. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg wrote the dissent which was joined by Stephen Breyer, David Souter, and John Paul Stevens.[25]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial-Birth_Abortion_Ban_Act

Congress describes partial birth abortion as "gruesome and inhumane"

And congress agreed after being presented with the evidence that it was not done to save the life of the mother and in fact could cause more damage to the mother by having the partial birth abortion.
 
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