Abortion and Morality

[heyjude]

There is one big problem I have with your posts palerider. 'You' would deny. 'You' would ban. Who gave 'you' the right to deny or ban anything? Did someone die and leave you in charge? I'll send 'you' an E-mail the day I give you the right to make decisions for me.

 

[palerider]

There is one big problem I have with your posts palerider. 'You' would deny. 'You' would ban. Who gave 'you' the right to deny or ban anything? Did someone die and leave you in charge? I'll send 'you' an E-mail the day I give you the right to make decisions for me.

Do you have a problem with the fact that you are denied the "right" to kill your neighbor because he lets his dog dig up your daisies every day? How about being denied the "right" to burn down a McDonalds because they forgot to put ketchup in your order?

Every law denies you the right to do one thing or another or bans you from something. Do you have a problem with all of them or only one that would deny women the right to kill their unborn children?

And do you have no problem with any law or policy presently in effect by the government or are you being hypocritical in your complaint that I have a problem with a policy while ignoring your own complaints about other policies?

 

[USMC the Almighty]

Oh goody. I am interested in seeing specific points she made that you believe have invalidated the basis of my position. I really am, please bring them forward.

Apparently calling you Catholic and saying you hate women constitutes being run over.

Mare, I'm willing to consider your position if only you would address his points instead of attacking him personally.

 

[Coyote]

Aborting a pregnancy that is the result of rape is not a matter of "convenience".

 

[Coyote]

And again, I have no problem with whatever women do to their bodies, but abortion is not an issue about women's bodies, it is an issue about children's bodies.

No. It is an issue about women's bodies as well. Pregnancy is a unique situation that involves two sets of competing rights and two bodies, one of which is dependent on the other.

To say otherwise is disengenous and insulting to the woman.

 

[palerider]

Aborting a pregnancy that is the result of rape is not a matter of "convenience".

What is it if not a matter of convenience. The only reason you might give is that it would be a constant reminder of her rape.

Would you accept this argument if it were your life on the line?

"Your honor, we move that coyote be summarily executed because he reminds my client of a terrible time in her life. We realize that killing him won't erase that time from my client's life, and that the terrible memories will remain, and that he is guilty of nothing, but your honor, my client says that he deserves to die none the less.

Would you meekly let them insert the needle on the validity of such an argument?

 

[palerider]

No. It is an issue about women's bodies as well. Pregnancy is a unique situation that involves two sets of competing rights and two bodies, one of which is dependent on the other.

To say otherwise is disengenous and insulting to the woman.

All rights are secondary to the right to live.

 

[top gun]

No. It is an issue about women's bodies as well. Pregnancy is a unique situation that involves two sets of competing rights and two bodies, one of which is dependent on the other.

To say otherwise is disengenous and insulting to the woman.

This is of course correct.


There are two interpretations. One is at the split second of conception (2 cells) that is a full blown human being that deserves 100% the rights of a born individual and anything anyone does that interferes with it's development is murder. The Birth Control Pill creates an environment that is not hospitable to the fertilized egg so even that is abortion & murder. So taking Birth Control Pills or no matter what criminal act has been perpetrated against the woman... no matter what her mental, economic, or physical condition is (bar dieing) or the condition of the fetus a pregnant woman must be forced to incubate and deliver a child or go to prison for at least (Pale's own words) manslaughter.

The good news is that a vast majority do not go along with this overly zealous interpretation... i.e. 65% of the American people do not want to see Roe (Pro-Choice legislation) overturned and only 29% do. On a global scale...Currently, over 60% of the world's people live in countries where induced abortion is permitted either for a wide range of reasons or without restriction as to reason. In contrast, about 26% of all people reside in countries where abortion is generally prohibited.

Abortion is illegal in these countries (some make an explicit exception to save a woman's life). You'll notice many are very small, third world and/or Muslim countries. (Bolded some easily recognizable)


Afghanistan
Andorra
Angola
Antigua & Barbuda
Bangladesh
Bhutan
Brazil
Brunei Darussalam
Central African Rep.
Chile
Congo (Brazzaville)
Côte d'Ivoire
Dem. Rep. of Congo
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Egypt
El Salvador
Gabon
Guatemala
Guinea–Bissau
Haiti
Honduras
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Ireland
Kenya
Kiribati
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Libya
Madagascar
Malawi
Mali
Malta
Marshall Islands
Mauritania
Mauritius
Mexico
Micronesia
Monaco
Myanmar
Nicaragua
Niger
Nigeria
Oman
Palau Panama
Papua New Guinea
Paraguay
Philippines
San Marino
Sao Tome & Principe
Senegal
Soloman Islands
Somalia
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Suriname
Syria
Tanzania
Tonga
Tuvalu
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
Venezuela
West Bank & Gaza Strip
Yemen

Abortion is legal on various grounds in all these countries. Notice the mix of religions and that the large industrialized & many more highly educated countries are on this list. (Bolded some that would be easily recognizable)

Argentina
Bahamas
Benin
Bolivia
Burkina Faso
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
Comoros
Costa Rica
Djibouti
Ecuador
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Grenada
Guinea
Jordan
Kuwait
Liechtenstein
Maldives
Morocco
Mozambique
Pakistan
Peru
Poland
Qatar
Rep. of Korea
Rwanda
Saudi Arabia
Togo
Uruguay
Vanuatu
Zimbabwe
Algeria
Botswana
Colombia
Gambia
Ghana
Hong Kong
Israel
Jamaica
Liberia
Malaysia
Namibia
Nauru
New Zealand
Northern Ireland
Saint Kitts & Nevis
Saint Lucia
Samoa
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Spain
Swaziland
Thailand
Trinidad & Tobago
Australia
Barbados
Belize
Cyprus
Fiji
Finland
Great Britain
Iceland
India
Japan
Luxembourg
Saint Vincent & Grenadines
Taiwan
Zambia
Albania
Armenia
Austria
Azerbaijan
Bahrain
Belarus
Belgium
Bosnia
Herzegovina
Bulgaria
Cambodia
Canada
Cape Verde
China
Croatia
Cuba
Czech Rep.
Dem. People's Rep. of Korea
Denmark
Estonia
France
Fmr. Yugoslav Rep. Macedonia
Georgia
Germany
Greece
Guyana
Hungary
Italy
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Latvia
Lithuania
Moldova
Mongolia
Montenegro
Nepal
Netherlands
Norway
Portugal
Puerto Rico
Romania
Russian Fed.
Serbia
Singapore
Slovak Rep.
Slovenia
South Africa
Sweden
Switzerland
Tajikistan
Tunisia
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam

In this much larger group of countries both in number & population it has been recognized that early development (early stages of human life that it might be) it is still under the discretion of the person who would be charged with incubation to decide if that is what she would want to do, or not. So what it comes down to is... Yes it's life. But it cannot live on its own. At that early limited development it is not given the same standing as a born individual... hence abortion is not murder... manslaughter or any other crime.

 

[vyo476]

What is it if not a matter of convenience. The only reason you might give is that it would be a constant reminder of her rape.

It's a constant reminder of a severe physical and psychological trauma and your likening it to "convenience" is a very clear sign that you have absolutely no idea of the depth of that trauma. Or you just don't care.

All this time Mare's been calling you a misogynist and I didn't agree with her until this post.

 

[palerider]

The good news is that a vast majority do not go along with this overly zealous interpretation... i.e. 65% of the American people do not want to see Roe (Pro-Choice legislation) overturned and only 29% do. On a global scale...Currently, over 60% of the world's people live in countries where induced abortion is permitted either for a wide range of reasons or without restriction as to reason. In contrast, about 26% of all people reside in countries where abortion is generally prohibited. [/COLOR]

Still with the dishonest polls? If you include options for termination when the mothers life or long term health is in danger, the majority want to see abortion on demand stopped. The only way to get a majority in favor of roe is to frame the questions in such a way as to not allow termination even if the mother's life or health is in danger.

 

[palerider]

It's a constant reminder of a severe physical and psychological trauma and your likening it to "convenience" is a very clear sign that you have absolutely no idea of the depth of that trauma. Or you just don't care.

All this time Mare's been calling you a misogynist and I didn't agree with her until this post.

Tell me vyo, how many other situations can you name that you feel you should be allowed to kill someone that reminds you of a severe physical and psychological trama committed against you by ANOTHER person?

Take your time.

And by all means, tell me how suggesting that one should not be allowed to kill someone for the crimes of someone else equals misogyny.

 

[palerider]

In this much larger group of countries both in number & population it has been recognized that early development (early stages of human life that it might be) it is still under the discretion of the person who would be charged with incubation to decide if that is what she would want to do, or not. So what it comes down to is... Yes it's life. But it cannot live on its own. At that early limited development it is not given the same standing as a born individual... hence abortion is not murder... manslaughter or any other crime. [/COLOR]

Murder is one human being killing another human being with intent. Demonstrate that the offspring of two human beings is ever anything but a human being and you have a point. Fail to do that and the only thing you demonstrate is that generally speaking, if people are more highly educated, or have a higher standard of living, they are more likely to accept a lie if the lie is more convenient than the truth.

 

[top gun]

Still with the dishonest polls? If you include options for termination when the mothers life or long term health is in danger, the majority want to see abortion on demand stopped. The only way to get a majority in favor of roe is to frame the questions in such a way as to not allow termination even if the mother's life or health is in danger.

There was nothing deceptive or tricky to understand about the poll question on Roe. It was... Do you support the overturning of Roe v. Wade (a woman's right to chose to have an abortion) 65% NO... 29% YES.

On the world stage the quote I made is the exact overall world breakdown. If you break it down into catagories still a large majority allow abortion for multiple reasons other than life of the mother... which is your position Pale is it not...THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE REASON? At least that's what you've posted hundreds of times?

25.9% No abortion at all or just to save the life of the mother.

9.4% To help ensure a woman's current & future physical health. (Basically means a doctor just has to agree with the womans decision)

4.2% To avoid even a woman's mental distress.

21.3% For even just socioeconomic reasons.

39.3% The lions share (the group from the list from Albania down and the group that has much of the largest and most educated populations) no restrictions on demand up to viability.

So it is easy to see only 25.9% are totally anti-choice. Even if you add in the 9.4% to help ensure a woman's current & future physical health (which in most cases is a purposful medical loophole for consent that only requires a woman to pick the right doctor) you'd still only be @ about 35%.

Everything from that down is even just mental distress 4.2%... socioeconomic reasons 21.3% and without restriction 39.3%... or 64.8% total.

So obviously even the world too IS against you...

 

[top gun]

Murder is one human being killing another human being with intent. Demonstrate that the offspring of two human beings is ever anything but a human being and you have a point. Fail to do that and the only thing you demonstrate is that generally speaking, if people are more highly educated, or have a higher standard of living, they are more likely to accept a lie if the lie is more convenient than the truth.

Fortunately for the world you do not frame what must be the required question.

There are different interpretations in law of many very similar things. Choice is one of those things. Mainly because it directly effects, in essence controls, another person in a medical way against her will. Where in law can an individual force another to remain sick, force another to gain huge amounts of weight, force another into surgery, possibly even under the best but unforeseen conditions even cause death?

These are just some of the reasons why there is a distinction between born or at least "viable" and not.

I don't think many will agree with you that more educated means easier fooled. I know I don't.

 

[vyo476]

Tell me vyo, how many other situations can you name that you feel you should be allowed to kill someone that reminds you of a severe physical and psychological trama committed against you by ANOTHER person?

Take your time.

And by all means, tell me how suggesting that one should not be allowed to kill someone for the crimes of someone else equals misogyny.

Should be allowed to kill someone that reminds me of that trauma? None. That make me feel like killing someone for that trauma? Quite a few, although there aren't any of them I'd care to discuss.

The misogyny lies in likening a woman's desire to abort a child produced by rape to a simple matter of convenience. It has nothing to do with whether or not that abortion ought to be allowed and has everything to do with understanding the motivation.

What is it if not a matter of convenience.

Lumping abortion in rape cases in with abortion in cases of, say, forgotten condoms is an incomplete likeness. The two cases are similar in that abortions are being performed, and you say abortions are wrong, so that is enough for you. However, the two cases are wildly different for the people who experience them - in the latter, it is a matter of convenience, whereas in the former, it is a matter of deep trauma and mental health. To liken the two without an acknowledgment of the extreme difference between them is to disregard the thoughts and feelings of women - after all, there is an extreme difference in the thoughts and feelings of rape victims versus those of women who just couldn't be bothered with using protection one night.

It is an oversimplification simply sit back and say, "This is wrong. Don't do it," without taking into consideration some of the motivations for the action. Those motivations don't necessarily make it right, but if you truly wish to solve a problem, you must understand it.