a question for the atheists

[Gipper]

And I would say that anyone who takes this list of ridiculous "criteria" seriously. . .can't be too smart!
But, you have the right to your opinion as I have mine!

Are you going to hide from your beliefs or not? Tell me which of those statements you do NOT believe and which you do?

From your many posts on this forum, it is clear you believe it is okay to kill in the womb, deficit spending is not your concern, that socialism is effective, and you do not believe in the Constitution since you demand gun control.

So, please tell me where I am wrong?

 

[Openmind]

Are you going to hide from your beliefs or not? Tell me which of those statements you do NOT believe and which you do?

From your many posts on this forum, it is clear you believe it is okay to kill in the womb, deficit spending is not your concern, that socialism is effective, and you do not believe in the Constitution since you demand gun control.

So, please tell me where I am wrong?

You are wrong in EVERYONE of your statements. You are just using circular thinking and bad faith,so, since one can't argue with bad faith ( notice, I didn't say what I really wanted to say, because I didn't want to insult you. . . ) I let you play your games with your bright, like minded friends!

 

[Gipper]

You are wrong in EVERYONE of your statements. You are just using circular thinking and bad faith,so, since one can't argue with bad faith ( notice, I didn't say what I really wanted to say, because I didn't want to insult you. . . ) I let you play your games with your bright, like minded friends!

Why do you ran from your beliefs? Why is it you libs never admit your kooky beliefs? Oh...cause they are kooky....right?

 

[Lagboltz]

...
I have always believed that one could be a believer or a non-believer, but that if one follows his/her conscience, he/she will embrace true morality, whether or not it fits exactly with religious dogmas.

I agree. In following one's conscience, one follows some deeply ingrained instincts. My feeling is that evolutionary survival of the fittest caused Neolithic Man to be endowed with instincts for the survival of their clan, or tribe. Keeping the tribe together is paramount for survival, so they are obligated by instinct to treat each other fairly, otherwise ostracism would cause the tribe to fall apart.

Because of this, many religions hold the same precepts on how man treats each other. That means Christianity has no monopoly on virtue. It also carries a lot of baggage. Taoism is purer in the sense that it addresses the personal instinctual precepts directly, rather than have an external God that tells you what they should be.

 

[Openmind]

Why do you ran from your beliefs? Why is it you libs never admit your kooky beliefs? Oh...cause they are kooky....right?

I have NEVER had any problem expressing my belifs. In fact, that's why your little tribe has been trying to get me to shut up or to leave this forum, just about since the day I registered!

And if I had not expressed my beliefs, if I had "ran away" from my beliefs, how can you make a judgment that my beliefs are "kooky" to begin with?

Note that I never called YOUR KOOKY beliefs . . . . kooky. . .until just now, because I really believe you are losing all reason! I think you need to take a couple of days to calm down, manage your frustration, regain your ability to think logically, and regroup!

I know it is difficult to see so many of your delusions about " a Romney landslide" and about "no tax increase". And about " rescending Obamacare on January 21st 2013,". And about "gun control laws over my dead body". . . . . But it's time to put on your big boys' pants and deal with it. . .before you lose your sanity!

 

[Openmind]

My, how you are so unconcerned with what Washington and our other founders believed and said. You and most other liberals prefer to have things the way you feel they should be, rather than what our founders intended things to be. That said, please proceed to debate.

Have you ever noticed my "signature?"

These are the REAL world of George Washington:

"I wish the Constitution which is offered, had been made more perfect; but I sincerely believe it is the best that could be obtained AT THIS TIME. And, as a constitutional door is opened for amendment hereafter, the adoption of it, under the present circumstances of the Union, is in my opinion desirable."
George Washington, letter to Patrick Henry, September 24, 1787

And these are the REAL world of Thomas Jefferson:

"The Constitution is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please"
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Judge Roane, September 6, 1819."

And, from the same source:
"The execution of the laws is more important than the making of them"
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Abbe Arnoux, July 19, 1789


And from the same wise man:

"I like dreams of the future better than the history of the past"
Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, August 1, 1816

Doesn't seem to me that these wise men expected us to be stuck in the 1776 era or to remain there for ever more!

 

[Lagboltz]

"The Constitution is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please"
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Judge Roane, September 6, 1819."
"The execution of the laws is more important than the making of them"
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Abbe Arnoux, July 19, 1789

"I like dreams of the future better than the history of the past"
Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, August 1, 1816

These three quotes yank the rug from under the strict constitutionalists who insist on clinging to the past.

 

[dogtowner]

Have you ever noticed my "signature?"

These are the REAL world of George Washington:

"I wish the Constitution which is offered, had been made more perfect; but I sincerely believe it is the best that could be obtained AT THIS TIME. And, as a constitutional door is opened for amendment hereafter, the adoption of it, under the present circumstances of the Union, is in my opinion desirable."
George Washington, letter to Patrick Henry, September 24, 1787

And these are the REAL world of Thomas Jefferson:

"The Constitution is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please"
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Judge Roane, September 6, 1819."

And, from the same source:
"The execution of the laws is more important than the making of them"
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Abbe Arnoux, July 19, 1789


And from the same wise man:

"I like dreams of the future better than the history of the past"
Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, August 1, 1816

Doesn't seem to me that these wise men expected us to be stuck in the 1776 era or to remain there for ever more!

if you are satisfied thst the amendment process is the proper means to recognize a changing world then how can you support infringement of the right to keep and bear arms via mere law ?

 

[Gipper]

I have NEVER had any problem expressing my belifs. In fact, that's why your little tribe has been trying to get me to shut up or to leave this forum, just about since the day I registered!

And if I had not expressed my beliefs, if I had "ran away" from my beliefs, how can you make a judgment that my beliefs are "kooky" to begin with?

Note that I never called YOUR KOOKY beliefs . . . . kooky. . .until just now, because I really believe you are losing all reason! I think you need to take a couple of days to calm down, manage your frustration, regain your ability to think logically, and regroup!

I know it is difficult to see so many of your delusions about " a Romney landslide" and about "no tax increase". And about " rescending Obamacare on January 21st 2013,". And about "gun control laws over my dead body". . . . . But it's time to put on your big boys' pants and deal with it. . .before you lose your sanity!

Do you deny that you believe the following???
- abortion is okay
- income redistribution is okay
- gun control is okay
- the Constitution should be flexible to fit the times
- the welfare state is okay
- liberalism/socialism works
- W was the worst president
- BO is a good president
- our debt is not a major problem

 

[Openmind]

if you are satisfied thst the amendment process is the proper means to recognize a changing world then how can you support infringement of the right to keep and bear arms via mere law ?

And show said I was supporting an "infringement of the right to keep and bear arms via mere law?"

First, I believe it is the current laws that have expended the right to bear arms to almost ANY weapons in existence today (and. . worse yet, in the future), when this "right to bear arms" in no way could have predicted the type of weapons that mere individuals could access in the 21st century. . .or beyond. I truly do not believe that our founders EVER intended for mini drones, chemical weapons, or mini nuclear war heads to be in the hand of ANY private citizens!

Second, the "right to bear arms" is qualified by the second amendment by the first part of that second amendment: "A WELL REGULATED MILITIA" which is obviously NOT what is happening today, when everyone and his neighbor has access to deadly firearms (including rocket launchers, as was demonstrated recently when 2 were turned in to the police in California in exchange for "credit cards") that are too often used to KILL American Citizens, including children.

I am ALL for using the amendment process and get rid of the whole second amendment. BUT I know this will never happen, so I will be satisfied with a new law that would make it more difficult for ALL, but especially for people with bad judgement and/or deadly intent to obtain those killing machines.

 

[dogtowner]

And show said I was supporting an "infringement of the right to keep and bear arms via mere law?"

First, I believe it is the current laws that have expended the right to bear arms to almost ANY weapons in existence today (and. . worse yet, in the future), when this "right to bear arms" in no way could have predicted the type of weapons that mere individuals could access in the 21st century. . .or beyond. I truly do not believe that our founders EVER intended for mini drones, chemical weapons, or mini nuclear war heads to be in the hand of ANY private citizens!

Second, the "right to bear arms" is qualified by the second amendment by the first part of that second amendment: "A WELL REGULATED MILITIA" which is obviously NOT what is happening today, when everyone and his neighbor has access to deadly firearms (including rocket launchers, as was demonstrated recently when 2 were turned in to the police in California in exchange for "credit cards") that are too often used to KILL American Citizens, including children.

I am ALL for using the amendment process and get rid of the whole second amendment. BUT I know this will never happen, so I will be satisfied with a new law that would make it more difficult for ALL, but especially for people with bad judgement and/or deadly intent to obtain those killing machines.

you said you supported proposed gun laws being floated. is the constitution says shall not be infringed then you seek to violate it.

the scotus doesnt see it your way.

 

[Openmind]

you said you supported proposed gun laws being floated. is the constitution says shall not be infringed then you seek to violate it.
the scotus doesnt see it your way.

Dear, I do not answer to the SCOTUS for my opinions!
And I believe the first amendment gave me some other rights?

Thank you for respecting them!

 

[TheJPRD]

It amazes me when liberals try to use our founders’ words in attempts to justify leftist positions. As I said before, liberals are wrong virtually 100% of the time. I suppose I must choose my words carefully in this post, for we Conservatives seem to be held to higher standards of civility here than those on the left; as evidenced by my recently deleted post in response to a religious bigot! Therefore, I’ll attempt to discuss the liberals’ wrongness in a manner that doesn’t offend their tender sensibilities. Hopefully, just pointing-out that they’re wrong, and providing justification for my claim won’t be seen as “incivility”???

In her post #231, openmind states:

Have you ever noticed my "signature?"

Yes I've noticed your "signature". I understand it too! Since you apparently don't understand it, allow me to explain. Read on, try to comprehend, and then we can discuss it further if you wish?

These are the REAL world of George Washington:

"I wish the Constitution which is offered, had been made more perfect; but I sincerely believe it is the best that could be obtained AT THIS TIME. And, as a constitutional door is opened for amendment hereafter, the adoption of it, under the present circumstances of the Union, is in my opinion desirable." George Washington, letter to Patrick Henry, September 24, 1787

The above are indeed the real words of George Washington. The following are also the real words of George Washington, and these words describe the process that MUST be used if future generations believe a portion of our Constitution is imperfect: "If in the opinion of the People the distribution or modification of the Constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed."

We Conservatives here have taken the exact position that Washington himself expressed in both of his above quotes! We Conservatives have never argued that the Constitution is “perfect”. We have argued, and rightfully so, that when any part of our Constitution is determined to be “imperfect”, the change MUST be implemented legally via the Amendment process. If you recall your history, you know that slavery was Constitutional at the time it was adopted. Future generations didn't appoint a Justice who RULED that slavery was un-Constitutional. We fought a Civil War, and in accordance with our Constitutional law, we then AMENDED the Constitution to prohibit slavery!

Washington’s words have once again supported our present-day Conservative position! I make this claim knowing that I may be called “arrogant” for stating the TRUTH! I’m prepared for the slings and arrows of disgruntled leftists.

And these are the REAL world of Thomas Jefferson:

"The Constitution is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please"
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Judge Roane, September 6, 1819."

The above words are indeed those of Thomas Jefferson, and the source is correct also. You just know there’s going to be a “However” coming, don’t you? “However”, Jefferson’s use of the phrase, “is a mere thing of wax”, is used in a derogatory manner. Jefferson was a critic of the Judiciary’s use of “Judicial Review” as established in the SCOTUS decision Marbury v. Madison! The above quote is Jefferson’s way of saying that the courts have too much power, power not given them in the Constitution, and as such, the courts have usurped the power that was to be equally shared by all three government branches. You can test the veracity of my conclusion by reading the entire letter to Judge Roane that you referenced, and following-up by reading the Enquirer article that’s referenced and being discussed in that letter. As additional support for my claim, I offer the following quote from Jefferson’s letter to William Jarvis one year after the one written to Roane. In this letter, Jefferson states his position more clearly and even more emphatically:

"To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions [is] a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy. Our judges are as honest as other men and not more so. They have with others the same passions for party, for power, and the privilege of their corps. Their maxim isboni judicis est ampliare jurisdictionem [good justice is broad jurisdiction], and their power the more dangerous as they are in office for life and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. It has more wisely made all the departments co-equal and co-sovereign within themselves." --Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820. ME 15:277

Although we Conservatives seldom argue the practice of “Judicial Review” these days, like Jefferson, we do see Judicial power being misused by corrupt, leftwing Justices who possess more love for the Democrat Party than for the Constitution. Such judges create “Rights” and delete “Rights” on political whim rather than by Constitutional Amendment! Once again, however, Jefferson’s words support our Conservative positions and principles, not those of the leftwing-Democrat Party.

And, from the same source:

"The execution of the laws is more important than the making of them"
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Abbe Arnoux, July 19, 1789

We Conservatives fully agree with Jefferson’s quote! We wish that the corrupt administration now in power WOULD execute the laws properly! We have a President and an Attorney General who enforce those laws they like (Gun Control and Environmental etc.), ignore those laws they don’t like (Immigration and Voter Fraud etc.), “selectively” apply other laws in accordance with WHO they feel deserves justice and who doesn’t (Civil Rights), all while ignoring the original intent of the Constitution.

And from the same wise man:

"I like dreams of the future better than the history of the past".
Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, August 1, 1816

I found this quote attributed to Jefferson, to Patrick Henry, and to anonymous. I’ve searched in vain for a copy of Jefferson’s letter to Adams of August 1, 1816. Regardless, I don’t see anything politically earthshaking in the quote, regardless of who said it. Most folks who see a future full of great things would prefer to dream of it rather than the past. One must ask oneself in today’s world, do we really see a prosperous and peaceful future?

Doesn't seem to me that these wise men expected us to be stuck in the 1776 era or to remain there for ever more!

Doesn’t seem to me that the quotes you posted detract from any political positions other than those embraced by the American left.

 

[TheJPRD]

These three quotes yank the rug from under the strict constitutionalists who insist on clinging to the past.

You're wrong again, most-illustrious physicist! Please read my post #238. Use your typical objectivity, and you’ll see that the only folks having a rug pulled from under them are you, openmind, and the illustrious dawkinsrocks. No surpirse to me, yet I was very respectful and civil while PULLING it!!

 

[Pandora]

we Conservatives seem to be held to higher standards of civility here than those on the left

Very sad but very true. It is better though to hold yourself to a higher standard so it all works out