Should we be allow to celebrate Christmas

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openmind You saeem to think there is no need for Bishps or Popes. That is your opinion but I think in merely human terms someone has to be in charge.

I am not aware of the Catholic Church position over money in the USA. I know many protestant churches ask for 10% of income which is far higher than $5 a week, This is the average contribution in Australia and is not compulsoary
Dawinrocks. You statement needs evidence. The contraction of aids has fallen and there is little evidence that lack of condoms prevent it.
 
Most of the high ranking nazis were roman Catholics

Only one has ever been ex communicated by the church and it was Goebbels

For marrying a Protestant!
 
Aus22 said:
openmind You saeem to think there is no need for Bishps or Popes. That is your opinion but I think in merely human terms someone has to be in charge.

I am not aware of the Catholic Church position over money in the USA. I know many protestant churches ask for 10% of income which is far higher than $5 a week, This is the average contribution in Australia and is not compulsoary
Dawinrocks. You statement needs evidence. The contraction of aids has fallen and there is little evidence that lack of condoms prevent it.
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Auss, read my post again.

What I said was that the pope and bishops are no longer in this for the good of the people, but for the glory and the perks.

And I stated clearly that the $5 a week (equivalent) was the norm in EUROPE, not in the US, where the CatholicChurch is basically expecting the 10% thite also, without calling it that!

I am also not saying that ONLY the Catholic Church is greedy, I am saying EVERY religion hierarchy is greedy and takes advantage of the faithful, especially tele evangelists.
 
Openmind said:
Auss, read my post again.

What I said was that the pope and bishops are no longer in this for the good of the people, but for the glory and the perks.

And I stated clearly that the $5 a week (equivalent) was the norm in EUROPE, not in the US, where the CatholicChurch is basically expecting the 10% thite also, without calling it that!

I am also not saying that ONLY the Catholic Church is greedy, I am saying EVERY religion hierarchy is greedy and takes advantage of the faithful, especially tele evangelists.
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Openmind, There are thousands of Bishops. Does you statement refer to all of them?
 
Aus22 said:
Openmind, There are thousands of Bishops. Does you statement refer to all of them?
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No. I do not like to generalize. . . And obviously there are good and bad people in every walk of life.

I would have to look at what each bishop's philosophy is, and how he approaches his "mission." I believe, however, that it is easier for a simple priest to stay in touch with what Jesus'message really is then for a bishop who is further removed from the people to remember or act on that message. So, I tend to trust the simple parish priest more than bishops.

And yet, I would have personal reason for not doing this, as I was molested by an old "simple" priest at the age of 11.

But Once thing is pretty certain i my opinion: power corrupts people, and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.
 
Openmind said:
No. I do not like to generalize. . . And obviously there are good and bad people in every walk of life.

I would have to look at what each bishop's philosophy is, and how he approaches his "mission." I believe, however, that it is easier for a simple priest to stay in touch with what Jesus'message really is then for a bishop who is further removed from the people to remember or act on that message. So, I tend to trust the simple parish priest more than bishops.

And yet, I would have personal reason for not doing this, as I was molested by an old "simple" priest at the age of 11.

But Once thing is pretty certain i my opinion: power corrupts people, and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.
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Openmind. I think we are getting to an important point. Sexual assault by clergy and the covering it up by certain church leaders is an important problem for the Catholic Church in several countries including Australia.
I will discuss this in another post.

It is true it is impossible to judge all Bishop[s. Here in Australia, the Archbishop of Sydney , Cardinal Pell is the most hatred man n the country. This is partly by the way he handles the charges o f peophilia. He did not show really concern for the victims. This is part of his personality being very conservative and defensive.

The Archbishop of Melbourne, Dennis Hart, is more acceptable as a spokesmen. He is conservative as well but did admit to over 600cases in his area.He is more approachable and able to concillate This is what we need i a bishop. Some reach this standard but not all.
 
Aus22 said:
Openmind. I think we are getting to an important point. Sexual assault by clergy and the covering it up by certain church leaders is an important problem for the Catholic Church in several countries including Australia.
I will discuss this in another post.

It is true it is impossible to judge all Bishop[s. Here in Australia, the Archbishop of Sydney , Cardinal Pell is the most hatred man n the country. This is partly by the way he handles the charges o f peophilia. He did not show really concern for the victims. This is part of his personality being very conservative and defensive.

The Archbishop of Melbourne, Dennis Hart, is more acceptable as a spokesmen. He is conservative as well but did admit to over 600cases in his area.He is more approachable and able to concillate This is what we need i a bishop. Some reach this standard but not all.
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As I said, there are good and bad people in every walk of life. Bishops are no different, POPES are no different. And what is disturbing to any person who is not blinded by the "aura" of sanctity surrounding the Church is that most religious people just assume that Priests, and especially Bishops and the Pope are infaillible. .. .which they are obviously not.

I see EVERYONE in the Catholic Church (and in all religious denominations, and in all religions) as mere HUMANS, no better, no worse as who they are as "naked" human, without their "aura" of religious vows.

I admire some, I really respect a few more (many Jesuites, who by the way, have historically had an issue with the Church of Rome because of their independent and progressive views on most social issues), and I despise and have contempts for a few others.
 
Dawkinsrocks said:
Millions of people in Africa have contracted HIV because the pope told them condoms are evil

He is a mass murderer
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You might find this interesting:
"If Roman Catholicism is responsible for the AIDS epidemic in Africa, it would be a fairly trivial matter to test the hypothesis. The percentage of Roman Catholics in various countries of Africa are quite diverse, as are the HIV infection rates. One need only plot the percent Catholics vs. the HIV infection rate. The figure to the right shows the results of such a plot. If the hypothesis that Catholic doctrine spreads HIV and AIDS, we would expect to see increased infection rates in countries that contain more Roman Catholics. Instead, we find decreased HIV rates in Catholic-dominated countries (although the trend is not statistically significant). The idea that Roman Catholic teaching encourages the spread of HIV is not confirmed by the demographics."
 
BigRob said:
You might find this interesting:
"If Roman Catholicism is responsible for the AIDS epidemic in Africa, it would be a fairly trivial matter to test the hypothesis. The percentage of Roman Catholics in various countries of Africa are quite diverse, as are the HIV infection rates. One need only plot the percent Catholics vs. the HIV infection rate. The figure to the right shows the results of such a plot. If the hypothesis that Catholic doctrine spreads HIV and AIDS, we would expect to see increased infection rates in countries that contain more Roman Catholics. Instead, we find decreased HIV rates in Catholic-dominated countries (although the trend is not statistically significant). The idea that Roman Catholic teaching encourages the spread of HIV is not confirmed by the demographics."
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Do you have a link, please?
 
Openmind said:
Do you have a link, please?
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Well, I did not find original link again, but here is basically the same argument:

http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/09/what-impact-does-catholic-teaching-have.html

From a bias (surely) site, but I don't see any issue with the actual data presented, and seems to correlate with the UN data on the subject of AIDS, and then (according to that site) they took the religion information from the CIA factbook, so it seems to be credible data.
 
BigRob said:
Well, I did not find original link again, but here is basically the same argument:

http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/09/what-impactdoes-catholic-teaching-have.html

From a bias (surely) site, but I don't see any issue with the actual data presented, and seems to correlate with the UN data on the subject of AIDS, and then (according to that site) they took the religion information from the CIA factbook, so it seems to be credible data.
Click to expand...
BigRob said:
Well, I did not find original link again, but here is basically the same argument:

http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/09/what-im-pact-does-catholic-teaching-have.html

From a bias (surely) site, but I don't see any issue with the actual data presented, and seems to correlate with the UN data on the subject of AIDS, and then (according to that site) they took the religion information from the CIA factbook, so it seems to be credible data.
Click to expand...

BigRob, if there is one thing I know about you, is that, in spite of what I see as a lot of "misguided" ideas, you are a honest person, and I didn't doubt that you had that information from a reliable link. So I wasn't "testing" you, I was really curious to read about this issue. And I believe the link you provided was as reliable as any (in spite of the obvious bias, obviously!)

Now, I believe that very few Catholics really follow the rules of the Church. .especially in Africa, which is a lot more influenced by EUROPEAN Catholicism, than the more "bigoted" form of Catholicism that seems to have spread in America.

I also believe that, many of the inhabitants of those countries are VERY simplistic (please do not read contempt into that, it's just that members of my family (my older sister, first, then my niece) in Congo, Zaire, and Ivory Coast for most of the last 50 years, and they do know the culture there. . .and it is STILL very primitive. So I don't think that it is necessarely Catholicism dogmas that would prevent people from using condoms, but rather ignorance, lack of care, and ECONOMICS! Even $.05 for a "subsidized" condom would be a stretch for many indigenous people there, and I wouldn't be surprise if (IF they even go to the extent of buying condoms) they might reuse them several times! They may also prefer to use some of the "local" remedies and amulettes to "protect" themselves!

But one thing is pretty sure. . . I believe this study only covers age 15 to 45. . and I would bet that a great majority of people with Aids are CHILDREN, babies born of HIV infected mothers. I'd love to see a study that talks about that. In fact, I think I'll go look for one, and I may post it if I can find it.
 
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Openmind said:
BigRob, if there is one thing I know about you, is that, in spite of what I see as a lot of "misguided" ideas, you are a honest person, and I didn't doubt that you had that information from a reliable link. So I wasn't "testing" you, I was really curious to read about this issue. And I believe the link you provided was as reliable as any (in spite of the obvious bias, obviously!)

Now, I believe that very few Catholics really follow the rules of the Church. .especially in Africa, which is a lot more influenced by EUROPEAN Catholicism, than the more "bigoted" form of Catholicism that seems to have spread in America.

I also believe that, many of the inhabitants of those countries are VERY simplistic (please do not read contempt into that, it's just that members of my family (my older sister, first, then my niece) in Congo, Zaire, and Ivory Coast for most of the last 50 years, and they do know the culture there. . .and it is STILL very primitive. So I don't think that it is necessarely Catholicism dogmas that would prevent people from using condoms, but rather ignorance, lack of care, and ECONOMICS! Even $.05 for a "subsidized" condom would be a stretch for many indigenous people there, and I wouldn't be surprise if (IF they even go to the extent of buying condoms) they might reuse them several times! They may also prefer to use some of the "local" remedies and amulettes to "protect" themselves!

But one thing is pretty sure. . . I believe this study only covers age 15 to 45. . and I would bet that a great majority of people with Aids are CHILDREN, babies born of HIV infected mothers. I'd love to see a study that talks about that. In fact, I think I'll go look for one, and I may post it if I can find it.
Click to expand...

Certainly AIDS is a huge problem for a lot of African nations, especially in the South -- and it is one area that I believe George W. Bush will be very favorably remembered for his support.

From the Washington Post:
When the Bush administration inaugurated the program in 2003, fewer than 50,000 HIV-infected people on the African continent were receiving the antiretroviral drugs that keep the virus in check and halt the progression toward full-blown AIDS. By the time Bush left office, the number had increased to nearly 2 million. Today, the United States is directly supporting antiretroviral treatment for more than 4 million men, women and children worldwide, primarily in Africa.

This is an amazing accomplishment, especially because it wasn’t supposed to be possible.
 

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