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NEW Abortion Argument: Against Pale Rider

Discussion in 'House of Debates' started by fedor50, Nov 6, 2016.

  1. fedor50

    fedor50 Member

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    Hello Pale Rider, you might remember me from a while back, we debated the scientific aspect of abortion and I admit you bested me, but that was then.

    I have spent a significant amount of time researching and studying the science and now I believe that I am finally prepared to properly challenge you and take you on once and for all.

    And I shall defeat you using science and prove why it is NOT accurate to classify a human zygote as a human being.

    First Argument: Species Membership


    Classification of an organism as "Homo sapiens" requires that 1) the entity is an organism to begin with and 2) that this organism has membership (requisite characteristics) in all the following clubs:

    Domain, Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. The zygote has only one. Domain eukaryote. It is a single eukaryotic cell. So a zygote does not fit the classification of "Homo Sapiens"

    Conclusion: The zygote does not have the characteristics required to be classified as a Homo sapiens under the rules of taxonomical classification.

    Second Argument: No, The science is NOT settled!

    I have seen you the past quote statements from medical textbooks agreeing with you that a human zygote is a human being. But NONE of this actually matters and here is why...

    Quoting a sentence from textbook and crying "LOOK LOOK" it says "its a human being" is not an argument for much. If science claims that something is true that means that there is a rational chain of evidence proving that claim is true.

    There is no such chain of evidence in Science - or some consensus among subject matter experts that a zygote is "a living human being/Homo sapiens"

    Basically, some textbook claiming defacto "zygote is a human being" must support that claim with "the WHY"

    Essentially Pale Rider, the problem with your argument is your assumption that the zygote ( a single human cell) is a human.

    This is an assumed premise - one which I have never seen you back up - and so your argument is a logical fallacy.

    Further, there are 5 main scientific perspectives on "When a human beings life begins".

    Metabolic
    Genetic
    Embryological
    Neurological
    Ecological

    http://science.jburroughs.org/mbahe/...nlifebegin.pdf

    Only one of the above scientific perspectives (Genetic) puts the beginning of human life at conception - and this perspective has fallen out of favor among scientists for reasons described in the above link (the text is from a developmental biology textbook).

    So ... the BEST anti-abortion position one can achieve with respect to whether or not the zygote is a human is "Experts disagree".

    Third Argument: Most Scientific Experts DISAGREE With You

    Yes Pale Rider, most scientific experts actually DISAGREE with you.

    Here is some commentary by Dana Krempels PH.D (Prof and the U of Miami) in Evolutionary Biology/visual physiology



    Biology: Classification of Homo Sapien cells as HS themselves, homo sapien, sex cells

    As I stated from the outset .. the best place the Anti-abort position can get to from a scientific perspective is "Experts disagree".

    It is then abject nonsense to make "defacto" claims such as "the zygote is a human being according to science". While we may be able to find SOME scientists (perhaps even a few from the Domain Science/Biology) that argue that the zygote should be classified as a human being. There are a whole bunch that do NOT.

    FINAL Argument: The NAIL In the Coffin

    Here is the REAL, final reason why the science will NEVER be on your side in this debate Pale Rider.

    The single cell at conception (the mighty zygote) ceases to exist shortly after conception. This cell, and many cells after will never be part of the human that these cells are constructing.

    If not one cell in the structure of a human exists. How then can a human being be said to exist?

    In other words Pale Rider, the zygote is not part of the cells that make up the body of the human. The cells that come AFTER the zygote (totipotent cells in the blastocyst) will create those cells further down the road.

    If not one cell in the structure of human exists then, how can a human be said to exist ?

    How can a human being exist when no cells that make up it's body exist?


    If you want to defeat me and win your argument then you must prove THIS:

    The zygote is a human cell. You already agreed in the past that individual human cells (other than the zygote) are not human beings.

    What is the difference between the zygote and these other human cells such that its status should be elevated to that of a human being?



     
  2. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    If not one cell in the structure of human exists then, how can a human be said to exist ?

    How can a human being exist when no cells that make up it's body exist?


    Same old straw man arguments....zygotes are not being aborted...it is a pointless point....made by a pointless poster.

    Further...it is possible to determine species with a single cell..

    http://www.barcodeoflife.org

    Give it up...all your arguments will fail because they are based on your belief and your misunderstandings rather than science.
     
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  3. fedor50

    fedor50 Member

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    You still do not get it. I am not debating abortion, I am debating your claim that a zygote is objectively a human being.

    And I see that you avoided my argument about species membership and how a zygote cannot be called a homo sapiens.

    Classification of an organism as "Homo sapiens" requires that 1) the entity is an organism to begin with and 2) that this organism has membership (requisite characteristics) in all the following clubs:

    Domain, Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. The zygote has only one. Domain eukaryote. It is a single eukaryotic cell. So a zygote does not fit the classification of "Homo Sapiens"

    Conclusion: The zygote does not have the characteristics required to be classified as a Homo sapiens under the rules of taxonomical classification.

    Further you are still scared to answer this ONE very simple question...

    The zygote is a human cell. You already agreed in the past that individual human cells (other than the zygote) are not human beings.

    What is the DIFFERENCE between the zygote and these other human cells such that its status should be elevated to that of a human being?

    Can you answer the question or is to quote YOU "shuck and jive" the best you got?
     
  4. Wag more

    Wag more Member

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    Soon after penetration of the egg by the sperm both the male and female DNA sort of uncoil and reunite. This action carves the new human in chemical stone. At this point in time a geneticist could identify the gender, hair and eye color, probable height, and whether the new human would be athletic or mathletic.
    Soon after this the new DNA molecule, which is very much alive, begins rapid division which will result in hair and a brain and bones and fingernails and a heart.
    After the unification of the male and DNA the blueprint for the new human is complete and the new human very, very much alive.



     
  5. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    I really have to ask why it is that people like you seem to have the idea that the human being you refer to as a "zygote" is nothing more then a twin to say an amoeba. Can you name one other entity in all of the universe that has the same DNA as the human "zygote"? And where you got the idea that one has to meet a certain criteria to be called an "organism" id beyond me, or even why the babe in the womb has to be classified as an "organism" to be considered a living being.

    https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html
     
  6. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    ....yeah a human that isn't a whatnot.... pigs have 98% the same as a human and bananas have 50%... or is it just a daft question
     
  7. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Gives one a sense of just how complex DNA is and even more a sense of what being a living thing is huh ?
     
  8. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    They are all "living things". The DNA just determines what kind of living "thing".
     
  9. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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  10. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely right. I was interested in your thought....
    ... wouldn't it depend on which zygothingy you are talking abount as every human has different DNA?.... anyway that's splitting hairs....
     
  11. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    If I understand your question, once the ova and sperm DNA halves knit themselves together, your genetic picture is complete and cells will begin building out the finished product as rapidly as the process allows. About nine months for people 22 for elephants etc.
     
  12. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    No mate it was just a casual observation I'm not one for these odd esoteric discussions...:)
     
  13. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Okey doke
     
  14. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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  15. Wag more

    Wag more Member

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    All the science and semantics in this thread obscure the fact that abortion kills a human. That human may not be fully developed but guess what: none of us is fully developed. I am 68 and I still learn new things every day and my hair is developing from brown to graying and my hips are developing from healthy to bursitic. All of us continue to develop until we draw our last breath. An unborn human is still a human and deserves all the rights you and I enjoy including the right to life.

    I believe women have a right NOT to get pregnant in the first place. No form of birth control, except abstinence, is 100% effective but a smart woman who does not want to become pregnant will employ multiple forms of birth control. That way she has a backup.

    ABORTION KILLS A HUMAN and no amount of scientific manipulation or liberal semantics can change that fact.
     
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