Women of polygamist retreat speak out

[Bunz]

In other words, there is NO PROOF that there was an "illegal stash" stop propagating falsehoods.

Oh I love it, approve water boarding in some instances and then no proof of another bad behavior. You Cant have it both ways. No proof, does not mean innocence in either party.

 

[Andy]

Oh I love it, approve water boarding in some instances and then no proof of another bad behavior. You Cant have it both ways. No proof, does not mean innocence in either party.

And you approve our government burning down a group of people and their children, while claiming you are against water boarding because "it's torture"... and dying in a government set inferno is not?

It's so strange to see twists and inconsistencies in this view point.

I have to admit, I'm with Lib on this one. There never was any real proof, or even supportable evidence that they had illegal weapons. Just contradictory statements by the government seeking to justify the action it had taken.

What's more, David was in contact with the feds during the stand off, and openly stated his intent to surrender as soon as he finished his little book or whatever it was. He claimed with a few days and set a date as the report goes. The Feds intentionally attacked before that date, and burned them all alive.

Now isn't it interesting. People from the left, seem to never have a problem with government violating the peoples rights, especially if it's a 'religious' group, but always protect non-Americans. Yet I believe the Constitution is to protect us, especially from non-Americans, and gives government wide range to that end. Funny how the stances reverse on some issues.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

The ATF Guys got shot with something...my guess guns...
and also they don't need proof to go in, they need a warrant to search.

 

[KingClovis]

The ATF Guys got shot with something...my guess guns...
and also they don't need proof to go in, they need a warrant to search.

Yeah.....but they're also too macho and take any challenge to their authority as a declaration of war to preserve their sense of pride. In the case of Waco, they got their butts handed to them, freaked out, and then, in conjunction with the FBI, massacred everyone out of revenge. Poorly done.

 

[Libsmasher]

Yeah.....but they're also too macho and take any challenge to their authority as a declaration of war to preserve their sense of pride. In the case of Waco, they got their butts handed to them, freaked out, and then, in conjunction with the FBI, massacred everyone out of revenge. Poorly done.

AND, indirectly, their actions caused the Oklahoma city bombing. The building that was bombed, the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, had offices for the FBI and ATF, among other federal agencies. I can't emphasize enough that government stupidity in needlessly taking lives isn't "free". What goes around comes around.

 

[Bunz]

And you approve our government burning down a group of people and their children, while claiming you are against water boarding because "it's torture"... and dying in a government set inferno is not?

I never said I approve of them burning anything. You are putting words into my mouth.
I dont know who set that fire, and honestly I dont think it matters much. Neither side was innocent. It got way out of hand in a hurry. The important part about Waco is that the hard lessons learned arent repeated. Which is why I said I thought it was the right thing for the state to do. This time nobody got hurt.

 

[Bunz]

AND, indirectly, their actions caused the Oklahoma city bombing. The building that was bombed, the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, had offices for the FBI and ATF, among other federal agencies. I can't emphasize enough that government stupidity in needlessly taking lives isn't "free". What goes around comes around.

WOW! Wait a minute there. "What goes around, comes around"? Thats what you say about OKC? I know you are a blind partisan and I do compliment your ability to spin just about anything. But I am surprised to see you justify terrorism.
This is the justification the terrorists used on 9-11 and daily in Iraq. I am a little blown away you can justify killing innocent people.

 

[Andy]

The ATF Guys got shot with something...my guess guns...
and also they don't need proof to go in, they need a warrant to search.

Of course. They don't need proof to go in. How quickly one turns from the "Patriot Act removes all our freedoms! They can do whatever they want" to well 'they don't need proof to go in, just a warrant to search'.

Pocket, I'm not saying they didn't violate a law by shooting back. I do suggest that the fact they had guns, doesn't automatically mean they were in violation of the law to start with. Remember that whole 'right to bare arms' thing? Guns are legal.

 

[Andy]

I never said I approve of them burning anything. You are putting words into my mouth.
I dont know who set that fire, and honestly I dont think it matters much. Neither side was innocent. It got way out of hand in a hurry. The important part about Waco is that the hard lessons learned arent repeated. Which is why I said I thought it was the right thing for the state to do. This time nobody got hurt.

The whole point of the Constitution is to restrict, and restrain government and protect the citizens. The opposite happened. So whatever minor thing the civilians did, is not nearly as bad in my mind to what the out of control corrupt government did. I suppose we will not see eye to eye on this.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Of course. They don't need proof to go in. How quickly one turns from the "Patriot Act removes all our freedoms! They can do whatever they want" to well 'they don't need proof to go in, just a warrant to search'.

Pocket, I'm not saying they didn't violate a law by shooting back. I do suggest that the fact they had guns, doesn't automatically mean they were in violation of the law to start with. Remember that whole 'right to bare arms' thing? Guns are legal.

Yes you do, but the law also says you can't have auto ak-47's and such. You can dissagree with that law, but the ATF does not make the laws, just like if a cop thinks pot should be legal, does not mean he can just ignore it.

Also you said shot back, have proof they did not shoot first? The natural rule is most people try to give the cops some benefit of the doubt, and also the fact that they shot back so fast? seems to show they had the arms ready, and most based on there biblical whacked out proficy, ready to shoot.

Its clear that most this thread seems to be just people who hate he ATF , and will just make anything up make them the bad guys for doing there job.

They where a crazy ass cult who killed themself, and people get bent out of shape about it.

 

[Libsmasher]

WOW! Wait a minute there. "What goes around, comes around"? Thats what you say about OKC? I know you are a blind partisan and I do compliment your ability to spin just about anything. But I am surprised to see you justify terrorism.
This is the justification the terrorists used on 9-11 and daily in Iraq. I am a little blown away you can justify killing innocent people.

WOW! Don't go off half-cocked! Did I say I was "justifying" anything? Nooooooooooo........ You apparently are one of those who think a murderous rampage is terrorism AS LONG AS it isn't the federal government that does it, if the ATF/FBI does it it's not terrorism. The wanton disregard for the lives of men, women, and children by the ATF/FBI at Ruby Ridge and Waco provoked a response in kind. The same people who yawn at children killed in those incidents go ballistic about the response to them. FOCUS, dude: I said that when you go around unjustly killing people, including women and children, history shows that they will strike back. That's a fact - deal with it.

 

[Bunz]

The whole point of the Constitution is to restrict, and restrain government and protect the citizens. The opposite happened. So whatever minor thing the civilians did, is not nearly as bad in my mind to what the out of control corrupt government did. I suppose we will not see eye to eye on this.

Firstly, if you want to talk ruby ridge, please make a thread with your case and I will probably agree in many instances. In the case of Waco, however one wants to critique the initial raid, here is the fact, those people in that compound had 51 days, and all the negotiating leverage in the world to end that peacefully. They choose to continue the standoff. The Federal government showed an incredible amount of patience in the matter for nearly 2 months.
I am saddened by the outcome, it is tragic. As I said before, niether side is innocent in this case. It was the worst imaginable outcome. I just hope that the lessons learned that day are still taught.

 

[Libsmasher]

Firstly, if you want to talk ruby ridge, please make a thread with your case and I will probably agree in many instances. In the case of Waco, however one wants to critique the initial raid, here is the fact, those people in that compound had 51 days, and all the negotiating leverage in the world to end that peacefully.

Uh, you're zooming fast forward to where the feds had already screwed it up. The seige was COMPLETELY preventable.

They choose to continue the standoff. The Federal government showed an incredible amount of patience in the matter for nearly 2 months.
I am saddened by the outcome, it is tragic.

Yaaaa - I can just feel your sadness vibes.

As I said before, niether side is innocent in this case. It was the worst imaginable outcome. I just hope that the lessons learned that day are still taught.

The main one being when it's a choice between a simple street bust and launching D-Day, pick the former.

 

[Bunz]

Uh, you're zooming fast forward to where the feds had already screwed it up. The seige was COMPLETELY preventable.



Yaaaa - I can just feel your sadness vibes.



The main one being when it's a choice between a simple street bust and launching D-Day, pick the former.

If I am not mistaken, the feds were executing a search warrant. They had legal right to enter that compound. You cannot do that while Koresh is in town checking the mail.
Shots were fired. We will never know who fired first. 10 people died that day, including 4 cops. But here is the thing, they had 51 days to give up. 51 days, Koresh didnt do it. Dont blame the wrong people for the action of madman terrorist in not coming out peacefully.

 

[KingClovis]

If I am not mistaken, the feds were executing a search warrant. They had legal right to enter that compound. You cannot do that while Koresh is in town checking the mail.
Shots were fired. We will never know who fired first. 10 people died that day, including 4 cops. But here is the thing, they had 51 days to give up. 51 days, Koresh didnt do it. Dont blame the wrong people for the action of madman terrorist in not coming out peacefully.

A more intelligent set of tactics should have been formulated, and an arrest warrant for Koresh would have been easy for LE to secure. The 'macho-factor' was hard at work within LE, as soon as the religious nuts pulled the first trigger. Revenge and face-saving became LE's top priority. If kids had to die to that end, so be it (their thought-process, not mine).