Women of polygamist retreat speak out

[Bunz]

As a further update. Turns out one of these lawabiding peaceful religious Christians has 21 wives!
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/05/polygamist.families/index.html

(CNN) -- In the secretive, illegal world of American polygamy, life has been good to 67-year-old Wendell Loy Nielsen of Eldorado, Texas.


1 of 2 By his own account, Nielsen has 21 wives -- and 36 children.

His oldest wife is 13 years older than he is, and his youngest wife is 43 years younger -- she's just 24.

His oldest child is 21 years old, and his youngest is a 6-month-old baby.

That's one of the longer, single-family genealogies uncovered in a CNN review of the "Bishop's List" -- a series of documents listing the age, marital status, children and address of the members of the Yearning for Zion polygamist ranch in Eldorado, Texas.

The ranch is owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy.

The Bishop's List was found among nearly 1,000 boxes of paperwork taken from the ranch by investigators who are considering child-abuse charges against some of the sect members.

Investigators don't believe there is a "bishop" on the ranch. Instead, they believe sect members take orders from the man they call their "prophet"-- convicted polygamist Warren Jeffs. Jeffs is in prison for forcing a 13-year-old girl to marry her 17-year-old cousin.

Investigators say Jeffs still exerts control from prison through one of the men on the ranch, Merle Jessop. One of Jessop's wives is a former sect member, Carolyn Jessop, who left a polygamist compound and later wrote a book about her experience, called "Escape." AC 360° Blog: Broken bones, broken spirits?


Agency: Half of sect's teen girls have been pregnant
Last week, attorneys for the sect argued against a court review of the documents, claiming the documents should remain private under First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and association.

Judge Barbara Walther disagreed, saying the documents must be examined to try to find possible medical records of the sect children.

The Bishop's List also reveals other interesting details.

Most of the documents list the members' address as "R 17" -- shorthand for the Yearning for Zion Ranch.

But on at least one family's document -- the Jacob H. Johnson family -- the address for Jacob's 22-year-old wife and infant daughter is listed as a "house of hiding."

Investigators have not revealed where or what kind of house that might be. Also, some sect members have refused to tell investigators -- or said they don't know -- how old they are.

Yet the documents in the Bishop's List seem to suggest that sect members do know their ages, and the ages of their children. Again, in the Johnson family record, one wife is listed as being "almost 28" while another is listed as being "almost 22."

The ages of the wives and their children are critical to investigators, who believe that underage girls were routinely married and forced to have sex with older men.


No formal criminal charges have been filed in the case. The next court hearing regarding the state's custody of 463 sect children is set for later this month.

The sheer number of children has created confusion between state officials and FLDS families and their attorneys, many of whom say their clients don't know where their children have been placed.

 

[Libsmasher]

Notice the smear by ambiguity - "teen girls pregnant". 19 years old? 13 years old? None of the above citations says how old they are.

 

[vyo476]

Notice the smear by ambiguity - "teen girls pregnant". 19 years old? 13 years old? None of the above citations says how old they are.

Perhaps you should read more thoroughly:

A total of 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are in state custody after a raid 3 1/2 weeks ago at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado. Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar.

 

[Libsmasher]

Perhaps you should read more thoroughly:

Are they all 17? Did they get married in another state of legal age? You don't know. Why not keep your mouth shut until ALL the facts are out, not just pronouncements by the authorities?

 

[vyo476]

Are they all 17? Did they get married in another state of legal age? You don't know. Why not keep your mouth shut until ALL the facts are out, not just pronouncements by the authorities?

The facts are out. Let's see if you can keep up:

There were 53 girls. Check.

Those 53 girls were between the ages of 14 and 17. That means some of them were 14, some were 15, some were 16, and some were 17. Check.

Of those 53 girls, 31 either were pregnant at the time or had already had at least one child. Check.

This does not mean they were all 17. Check.

This means that none of them were 13 or 19, as you sarcastically asked in a previous post. Check.

These are established facts. Check.

If, due to your anti-government paranoia, you feel the need to go line them up, count them, and ask them their ages, all by yourself, by all means feel free. Otherwise, as I've already said, I'd suggest you READ EVERYTHING (see, I have caps lock too) and make sure that previously presented evidence won't contradict your statements before you make them. It'll save you from looking like an idiot - which, given that you suggested that the "teen girls pregnant" line was a deliberate ambiguity that could apply to girls 13 to 19 when a tighter range of 14 to 17 had already been presented, you already do.

Just some friendly advice.

 

[Libsmasher]

The facts are out. Let's see if you can keep up:

There were 53 girls. Check.

Those 53 girls were between the ages of 14 and 17. That means some of them were 14, some were 15, some were 16, and some were 17. Check.

It doesn't mean that at all.

Of those 53 girls, 31 either were pregnant at the time or had already had at least one child. Check.

This does not mean they were all 17. Check.

It means nothing of the kind.

This means that none of them were 13 or 19, as you sarcastically asked in a previous post. Check.

These are established facts. Check.

If, due to your anti-government paranoia,

A LIB talking about anti-government paranoia????


Howler o' the Year Award, nailed down.

you feel the need to go line them up, count them, and ask them their ages, all by yourself, by all means feel free. Otherwise, as I've already said, I'd suggest you READ EVERYTHING (see, I have caps lock too) and make sure that previously presented evidence won't contradict your statements before you make them. It'll save you from looking like an idiot - which, given that you suggested that the "teen girls pregnant" line was a deliberate ambiguity that could apply to girls 13 to 19 when a tighter range of 14 to 17 had already been presented, you already do.

Just some friendly advice.

You have a reading comprehension problem. Check.

 

[vyo476]

It doesn't mean that at all.

It means nothing of the kind.

Then what does it mean?

You have a reading comprehension problem. Check.

Your sophistic attempts to derail my point are not succeeding. You said that they could have been anywhere from 13 to 19; the article specifically said that they were between the ages of 14 and 17. Now you feel compelled to disagree with an AP article stating researched facts. Your two statements above, "It doesn't mean that at all" and "It means nothing of the kind" are directly stating that you believe AP either lied or got the numbers wrong. If you have some actual source for this allegation, I suggest you present it, rather than offering pointless one-line "refutations" like the ones above that have no substance.

Otherwise, recognize that you were caught making a statement that you didn't look into well enough to be making, and put this new idiotic line of debate to rest.

 

[Libsmasher]

I'm not going to churn your misinterpretation of the authorities announcements for 90 posts, but for one example:

You said:

Those 53 girls were between the ages of 14 and 17. That means some of them were 14, some were 15, some were 16, and some were 17.

How can you know the distribution of ranges, when all they gave you is upper and lower limits??

Suppose the girls distribution of ages were some 16, and some 17. Then would the statement "Those 53 girls were between the ages of 14 and 17" still be true? Yes.

Checkmate.

 

[vyo476]

How can you know the distribution of ranges, when all they gave you is upper and lower limits??

Suppose the girls distribution of ages were some 16, and some 17. Then would the statement "Those 53 girls were between the ages of 14 and 17" still be true? Yes.

Checkmate.

There are only four possible ages. If none of the girls were, say, 15, it is expected that AP would print that the girls were 14, 16, and 17 years of age, as a matter of precision. And if none of them were 14 or 15, the age range would have been expected to be 16-17 in print.

In any of these cases, your original statement of 13-19 is still clearly refuted. You have yet to defend that point. Would you care to, or are you willing to end this line of debate by admitting that you made a statement without considering the information presented?

 

[top gun]

All religions - at their fundamentalist levels - can be accurately described as "creepy, heretical ethnocentric cult built up around a palpable charlatan". The only reason they don't refer to Jesus or Mohammed as charlatans is too many centuries have passed for an accurate history.

I'm indifferent to polygamy - I could care less as long as it's adults. So what exactly is wrong with it?

I'm in agreement with you Coyote. As long as it's adults and nobody's getting hurt... whatever.

I personally think though the whole "church compound" thing is almost always a strange arrangement. You get these isolated groups of people and all it takes is some leader to go "super nova they're the reincarnation of Jesus Christ" trip and bad things happen. Waco... Jim Jones... Manson... on and on...

 

[SW85]

What do you have against polygamy?

Same thing I have against homosexuality, bestiality, sex change operations, etc.

One of the big things to remember about the Mormons is that the mainstream Latter Day Saints renounced, amongst other things, polygamy more than one hundred years ago.

Sure -- at the barrel of a gun.

Funny, the antisemites say the same thing about the Jews, almost word for word.

Sure they do.

A family services thugocracy disrupts the lives of hundreds of people based on one girl's claims - it's as if Janet Reno were back in power!

To be sure, the government handled it in its typically ham-handed and inefficient way.

But that doesn't change the fundamental fact that polygamy is an affront to western civilization.

You sound like my father. Which, quite frankly, scares the hell out of me.

Hahah! You'd be surprised how often I hear that.

Please explain to me how polygamy is on par with slavery.

You know it is possible to say that two things are undesirable without suggesting equivalence between them?

All religions - at their fundamentalist levels - can be accurately described as "creepy, heretical ethnocentric cult built up around a palpable charlatan".

Many can (again, Mormonism), though I don't see how Christianity, with its central tenet being the universality of God's love, could be construed as ethnocentric. Though to be sure, individual churches have been and some still are (like Trinity United).

The fact that key tenets of Mormonism have been positively discredited, however, should go some way to confirming this.

 

[Coyote]

Why is polygamy an "affront to Western Civilization?"? It's really depends on how it's practiced doesn't it? Forced marriages and child-marriages are an afront. But if it's between consenting adults I'm not sure what difference it makes.

Mormanism is at an interesting cross-roads. It has in terms of numbers around the world and doctrinal reformations become a mainstream relgion rather than a fringe cult. With Romny's attempted candidacy it met it's first test: can a Morman be elected US President. It occupies much the same niche as Catholicism did during Kennedy's candidacy and but is not quite so villified as Islam or Athiesm.

Like the more commonly and socially acceptable Christian denominations - it's has it's fundamentalist freaks on the fringe. But people seem to forget - the fringe isn't not the main.

And...like most of the other mainstream religions - it is reluctant to own up to it's share of religious bloodshed like the Mountain Meadow massacre.

 

[Coyote]

The fact that key tenets of Mormonism have been positively discredited, however, should go some way to confirming this.

A number of key tenets of Christianity as a whole can be discredited. It's easier to do that with LDS because it's comparatively recent in time. Give it a millinium or two and there won't be any difference.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Same thing I have against homosexuality, bestiality, sex change operations, etc.

So, you have a problem with people who don't live the way YOU want them to?

To be sure, the government handled it in its typically ham-handed and inefficient way.

Certainly.

But that doesn't change the fundamental fact that polygamy is an affront to western civilization.

Riiiiiiiiight.

Hahah! You'd be surprised how often I hear that.

You do NOT want to be someone who reminds me of the psychopathic fundie I have the misfortune to be the son of. He belongs in a mental ward, or an unmarked grave.

You know it is possible to say that two things are undesirable without suggesting equivalence between them?


Many can (again, Mormonism), though I don't see how Christianity, with its central tenet being the universality of God's love, could be construed as ethnocentric. Though to be sure, individual churches have been and some still are (like Trinity United).

The fact that key tenets of Mormonism have been positively discredited, however, should go some way to confirming this.

Most religions can be discredited with a hard, analytical look. (For the record, I agree with you on Mormonism.) Of course, anyone doing so is immediately denounced as a "racist", a "heretic", or another buzzword.