Who is responsible for the 9/11 attacks?

[TVoffBrainOn]

If it made sense and was historically accurate and wasn't copied and pasted. I'd prefer a synopsis in your own words.

- create the enemy

I hope we can agree that terrorism, as it pertains to America, is a product of American and European Foreign Policy in the middle east over the last 50-100 years. After 9/11 the Patriot Act, already written and waiting for it's moment in history, was rushed through Congress. You know the story... no one read it, wee hour of the morning changes, etc. It's too easy to draw parallels between the Patriot Act and the Enabling Act. Sure sure, there have been other times of crisis where America has "accepted" limits on civil liberties. Lincoln/Civil War, WW2/Japanese-American Internment.... but those wars had ends. there was always a known point in time when the pendulum would swing back in Freedom's favor. This war is an endless war, defined as open ended and without boundaries.

Creating a threat is the oldest trick in the book, but just like Hitler's invocation of a communist threat after the Reichstag fire, it can be based on a real event. 9/11 was the real event. But the real event is usually coupled with myth, like the "global conspiracy of world jewry". It is not that global Islamist terrorism is not a severe danger... of course it is. I am arguing rather that the language used to convey the nature of the threat is different in a country such as Spain (which has also suffered violent terrorist attacks) than it is in America. Spanish citizens know that they face a grave security threat. what we as American citizens believe is that we are potentially threatened with the end of civilisation as we know it. Of course, this makes us more willing to accept restrictions on our freedoms.

- creat the gulag

Once everyone is scared, create a prison system outside the rule of law. guantanamo, abu ghraib, secret cia prisons in europe, also look at the mock detention center during the RNC national convention 2004.

gulags in history tend to metastasise, becoming ever larger and more secretive, ever more deadly and formalised. We know from first-hand accounts, photographs, videos and government documents that people, innocent and guilty, have been tortured in the US-run prisons we are aware of and those we can't investigate adequately.

But Americans still assume this system and detainee abuses involve only scary brown people with whom they don't generally identify. "First they came for the Jews"....Most Americans don't understand yet that the destruction of the rule of law at Guantánamo set a dangerous precedent for them, too.

Military Tribunals? yup Mussolini and Stalin did that too."The People's Court"

- paid thugs

Italy had the Blackshirts, Germany had the Brownshirts, America has Blackwater and other private contracting "security" firms. The years following 9/11 have proved a bonanza for America's security contractors, with the Bush administration outsourcing areas of work that traditionally fell to the US military. In the process, contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars have been issued for security work by mercenaries at home and abroad. In Iraq, some of these contract operatives have been accused of involvement in torturing prisoners, harassing journalists and firing on Iraqi civilians. Under Order 17, issued to regulate contractors in Iraq by the one-time US administrator in Baghdad, Paul Bremer, these contractors are immune from prosecution

Sure that's in Iraq, but all you have to do is look to events like Hurrican Katrina or the RNC convention to see the signs of a police state.

Thugs in America? Groups of angry young Republican men, dressed in identical shirts and trousers, menaced poll workers counting the votes in Florida in 2000If you are reading history, you can imagine that there can be a need for "public order" on the next election day. Say there are protests, or a threat, on the day of an election... history would not rule out the presence of a private security firm at a polling station "to restore public order".

- set up the surveillance system/harrass the citizen groups

In closed societies, this surveillance is cast as being about "national security", the true function is to keep citizens docile and inhibit their activism and dissent. A little-noticed new law has redefined activism such as animal rights protests as "terrorism". So the definition of "terrorist" slowly expands to include the opposition.

we dont have to get into warrantless surveillance do we?

- begin targetting the opposition

a quick search of left wing people on the no fly list is an easy place to start. Ted Kennedy? a US Senator? seriously? but it doesnt stop there of course. Bush supporters in state legislatures in several states put pressure on regents at state universities to penalise or fire academics who have been critical of the administration. as for civil servants, the Bush administration has derailed the career of one military lawyer who spoke up for fair trials for detainees, while an administration official publicly intimidated the law firms that represent detainees pro bono by threatening to call for their major corporate clients to boycott them.

Most recently, the administration purged eight US attorneys for what looks like insufficient political loyalty. When Goebbels purged the civil service in April 1933, attorneys were "coordinated" too, a step that eased the way of the increasingly brutal laws to follow.

i could go on...

- Control the press

Josh Wolf, 1 year in prison for refusing to turn over video of an anti war demonstration. even though it was acknowledged that the video did not contain anything useful.

Homeland Security brought a criminal complaint against reporter Greg Palast, claiming he threatened "critical infrastructure" when he and a TV producer were filming victims of Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana. Palast had written a bestseller critical of the Bush administration.

Other reporters and writers have been punished in other ways. Joseph C Wilson accused Bush, in a New York Times op-ed, of leading the country to war on the basis of a false charge that Saddam Hussein had acquired yellowcake uranium in Niger. His wife, Valerie Plame, was outed as a CIA spy - a form of retaliation that ended her career.

Prosecution and job loss are nothing, though, compared with how the US is treating journalists seeking to cover the conflict in Iraq in an unbiased way. The Committee to Protect Journalists has documented multiple accounts of the US military in Iraq firing upon or threatening to fire upon unembedded (meaning independent) reporters and camera operators from organisations ranging from al-Jazeera to the BBC. While westerners may question the accounts by al-Jazeera, they should pay attention to the accounts of reporters such as the BBC's Kate Adie. In some cases reporters have been wounded or killed, including ITN's Terry Lloyd in 2003. Both CBS and the Associated Press in Iraq had staff members seized by the US military and taken to violent prisons; the news organisations were unable to see the evidence against their staffers.

Over time in closing societies, real news is supplanted by fake news and false documents. Pinochet showed chilean citizens falsified documents to back up his claim that terrorists had been about to attack the nation. The yellowcake charge, too, was based on forged papers.

- Dissent equals treason

most Americans do not realise that when Congress wrongly, foolishly, passed the Military Commissions Act of 2006 - the president has the power to call any US citizen an "enemy combatant". He has the power to define what "enemy combatant" means. The president can also delegate to anyone he chooses in the executive branch the right to define "enemy combatant" any way he or she wants and then seize Americans accordingly.

Most Americans surely do not get this yet. No wonder: it is hard to believe, even though it is true. In every closing society, at a certain point there are some high-profile arrests - usually of opposition leaders, clergy and journalists. Then everything goes quiet. After those arrests, there are still newspapers, courts, TV and radio, and the facades of a civil society. There just isn't real dissent. There just isn't freedom. If you look at history, just before those arrests is where we are now.

- suspend the rule of law


The John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007 gave the president new powers over the national guard. This means that in a national emergency - which the president now has enhanced powers to declare - he can send Michigan's militia to enforce a state of emergency that he has declared in Oregon, over the objections of the state's governor and its citizens.

Critics see this as a clear violation of the Posse Comitatus Act - which was meant to restrain the federal government from using the military for domestic law enforcement. The Democratic senator Patrick Leahy says the bill encourages a president to declare federal martial law. It also violates the very reason the founders set up our system of government as they did: having seen citizens bullied by a monarch's soldiers, the founders were terrified of exactly this kind of concentration of militias' power over American people in the hands of an oppressive executive or faction.

Of course, the United States is not vulnerable to the violent, total closing-down of the system that followed Mussolini's march on Rome or Hitler's roundup of political prisoners. Our democratic habits are too resilient, and our military and judiciary too independent, for any kind of scenario like that.

Rather our experiment in democracy could be closed down by a process of erosion.


and i didnt even touch on the corporatist and theocratic aspects.

 

[Abraxis Axis]

Superb..................................

simply Superb

you should also touch on the rest of this fine article it has so many other interesting points
you layed out the ones you chose nicely

 

[n0spam4me]

Thanks TVoffBrainOn

I wish I could write, but alas, my talents lie in other areas.

May I urge all taxpayers and voters of this land to communicate with your Senators and Congresspeople! They NEED to hear from you.

A! Where are we going? .... and why are we in this handbasket?

 

[USMC the Almighty]

- create the enemy

I hope we can agree that terrorism, as it pertains to America, is a product of American and European Foreign Policy in the middle east over the last 50-100 years.

This is typical of you to blame terrorism on the West. It's not foreign policy that drives them to kill “infidels” and they say as much. Hassan, a former radical Islamist said: “I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy. By blaming the Government for our actions… they did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.”

Perhaps this also explains why you are unwilling to believe that people were driven by their religion to fly planes into American buildings and instead chose some grand conspiracy that satisfies your denial of the existence of evil.

After 9/11 the Patriot Act, already written and waiting for it's moment in history, was rushed through Congress. You know the story... no one read it, wee hour of the morning changes, etc. It's too easy to draw parallels between the Patriot Act and the Enabling Act. Sure sure, there have been other times of crisis where America has "accepted" limits on civil liberties. Lincoln/Civil War, WW2/Japanese-American Internment.... but those wars had ends. There was always a known point in time when the pendulum would swing back in Freedom's favor. This war is an endless war, defined as open ended and without boundaries.

You forgot John Adams, Woodrow Wilson, Bill Clinton… What makes you think these wars had “ends”? The Civil War, much like today, was a war of civilizations – a war of conflicting ideas. WW2 was also the first war where civilians became legitimate military targets, so your comparisons aren’t exactly correct.

Creating a threat is the oldest trick in the book, but just like Hitler's invocation of a communist threat after the Reichstag fire, it can be based on a real event. 9/11 was the real event. But the real event is usually coupled with myth, like the "global conspiracy of world jewry". It is not that global Islamist terrorism is not a severe danger... of course it is. I am arguing rather that the language used to convey the nature of the threat is different in a country such as Spain (which has also suffered violent terrorist attacks) than it is in America. Spanish citizens know that they face a grave security threat. what we as American citizens believe is that we are potentially threatened with the end of civilisation as we know it. Of course, this makes us more willing to accept restrictions on our freedoms.

This is where I think that liberals are seriously mistaken. As I said above, I truly believe that liberals are more reluctant to accept the existence of evil and they’d rather fabricate their own source of problems (“neocons” in this case) then accept the real ones.

History has shown the devastating consequences for average people when their leaders fail to heed the words of evil men and no where is this more evident than in WW2. If world leaders had taken seriously the word of Stalin, Mussolini, and Hitler when they made their threats, then millions of people might still be alive. I see no reason to not take the Iranian President seriously when he says he wants to wipe Israel off the map and declares war on the West.

Just as in the years leading up to World War II, the signs are all around us. The rise of Hamas. The re-arming of Hezbollah. The Iranian dictatorship's relentless drive for nuclear weapons. Terrorists from New Jersey to London to Iraq and Pakistan who are saying repeatedly and publicly that they want nothing more than to kill us.

Getting back to my point here, the reason that Americans take the Islamic threat more serious than the Spanish is because we value liberty more than they do (remember, Spain has allowed tyranny and dictatorships to run their country) and thus, are less likely to try and appease evil. No one has given more for liberty than the American soldier, and as such, we are the least likely to give in to those who threaten it. This has nothing to do with a willingness to accept “restrictions” and has everything to do with a willingness to recognize evil and prevent it from destroying our civilization.

- creat the gulag

Once everyone is scared, create a prison system outside the rule of law. guantanamo, abu ghraib, secret cia prisons in europe, also look at the mock detention center during the RNC national convention 2004.

gulags in history tend to metastasise, becoming ever larger and more secretive, ever more deadly and formalised. We know from first-hand accounts, photographs, videos and government documents that people, innocent and guilty, have been tortured in the US-run prisons we are aware of and those we can't investigate adequately.

But Americans still assume this system and detainee abuses involve only scary brown people with whom they don't generally identify. "First they came for the Jews"....Most Americans don't understand yet that the destruction of the rule of law at Guantánamo set a dangerous precedent for them, too.

Military Tribunals? yup Mussolini and Stalin did that too."The People's Court"

You were challenged to draw parallels between the Nazis and President Bush’s Administration. Military prisons and tribunals are nothing new. In fact, they date back to the Revolution.

Secondly, I have yet to see one shred of evidence of torture at Guantanamo.

That’s all the time I have right now. I’ll try to find some time to respond to your other points. Though I don’t agree, I can appreciate your thoughtfulness and thoroughness – something that the “Bush=Hitler” crowd almost never displays.

 

[OPGhostdog]

- create the enemy

I hope we can agree that terrorism, as it pertains to America, is a product of American and European Foreign Policy in the middle east over the last 50-100 years. After 9/11 the Patriot Act, already written and waiting for it's moment in history, was rushed through Congress. You know the story... no one read it, wee hour of the morning changes, etc. It's too easy to draw parallels between the Patriot Act and the Enabling Act. Sure sure, there have been other times of crisis where America has "accepted" limits on civil liberties. Lincoln/Civil War, WW2/Japanese-American Internment.... but those wars had ends. there was always a known point in time when the pendulum would swing back in Freedom's favor. This war is an endless war, defined as open ended and without boundaries.

Creating a threat is the oldest trick in the book, but just like Hitler's invocation of a communist threat after the Reichstag fire, it can be based on a real event. 9/11 was the real event. But the real event is usually coupled with myth, like the "global conspiracy of world jewry". It is not that global Islamist terrorism is not a severe danger... of course it is. I am arguing rather that the language used to convey the nature of the threat is different in a country such as Spain (which has also suffered violent terrorist attacks) than it is in America. Spanish citizens know that they face a grave security threat. what we as American citizens believe is that we are potentially threatened with the end of civilisation as we know it. Of course, this makes us more willing to accept restrictions on our freedoms.

- creat the gulag

Once everyone is scared, create a prison system outside the rule of law. guantanamo, abu ghraib, secret cia prisons in europe, also look at the mock detention center during the RNC national convention 2004.

gulags in history tend to metastasise, becoming ever larger and more secretive, ever more deadly and formalised. We know from first-hand accounts, photographs, videos and government documents that people, innocent and guilty, have been tortured in the US-run prisons we are aware of and those we can't investigate adequately.

But Americans still assume this system and detainee abuses involve only scary brown people with whom they don't generally identify. "First they came for the Jews"....Most Americans don't understand yet that the destruction of the rule of law at Guantánamo set a dangerous precedent for them, too.

Military Tribunals? yup Mussolini and Stalin did that too."The People's Court"

- paid thugs

Italy had the Blackshirts, Germany had the Brownshirts, America has Blackwater and other private contracting "security" firms. The years following 9/11 have proved a bonanza for America's security contractors, with the Bush administration outsourcing areas of work that traditionally fell to the US military. In the process, contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars have been issued for security work by mercenaries at home and abroad. In Iraq, some of these contract operatives have been accused of involvement in torturing prisoners, harassing journalists and firing on Iraqi civilians. Under Order 17, issued to regulate contractors in Iraq by the one-time US administrator in Baghdad, Paul Bremer, these contractors are immune from prosecution

Sure that's in Iraq, but all you have to do is look to events like Hurrican Katrina or the RNC convention to see the signs of a police state.

Thugs in America? Groups of angry young Republican men, dressed in identical shirts and trousers, menaced poll workers counting the votes in Florida in 2000If you are reading history, you can imagine that there can be a need for "public order" on the next election day. Say there are protests, or a threat, on the day of an election... history would not rule out the presence of a private security firm at a polling station "to restore public order".

- set up the surveillance system/harrass the citizen groups

In closed societies, this surveillance is cast as being about "national security", the true function is to keep citizens docile and inhibit their activism and dissent. A little-noticed new law has redefined activism such as animal rights protests as "terrorism". So the definition of "terrorist" slowly expands to include the opposition.

we dont have to get into warrantless surveillance do we?

- begin targetting the opposition

a quick search of left wing people on the no fly list is an easy place to start. Ted Kennedy? a US Senator? seriously? but it doesnt stop there of course. Bush supporters in state legislatures in several states put pressure on regents at state universities to penalise or fire academics who have been critical of the administration. as for civil servants, the Bush administration has derailed the career of one military lawyer who spoke up for fair trials for detainees, while an administration official publicly intimidated the law firms that represent detainees pro bono by threatening to call for their major corporate clients to boycott them.

Most recently, the administration purged eight US attorneys for what looks like insufficient political loyalty. When Goebbels purged the civil service in April 1933, attorneys were "coordinated" too, a step that eased the way of the increasingly brutal laws to follow.

i could go on...

- Control the press

Josh Wolf, 1 year in prison for refusing to turn over video of an anti war demonstration. even though it was acknowledged that the video did not contain anything useful.

Homeland Security brought a criminal complaint against reporter Greg Palast, claiming he threatened "critical infrastructure" when he and a TV producer were filming victims of Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana. Palast had written a bestseller critical of the Bush administration.

Other reporters and writers have been punished in other ways. Joseph C Wilson accused Bush, in a New York Times op-ed, of leading the country to war on the basis of a false charge that Saddam Hussein had acquired yellowcake uranium in Niger. His wife, Valerie Plame, was outed as a CIA spy - a form of retaliation that ended her career.

Prosecution and job loss are nothing, though, compared with how the US is treating journalists seeking to cover the conflict in Iraq in an unbiased way. The Committee to Protect Journalists has documented multiple accounts of the US military in Iraq firing upon or threatening to fire upon unembedded (meaning independent) reporters and camera operators from organisations ranging from al-Jazeera to the BBC. While westerners may question the accounts by al-Jazeera, they should pay attention to the accounts of reporters such as the BBC's Kate Adie. In some cases reporters have been wounded or killed, including ITN's Terry Lloyd in 2003. Both CBS and the Associated Press in Iraq had staff members seized by the US military and taken to violent prisons; the news organisations were unable to see the evidence against their staffers.

Over time in closing societies, real news is supplanted by fake news and false documents. Pinochet showed chilean citizens falsified documents to back up his claim that terrorists had been about to attack the nation. The yellowcake charge, too, was based on forged papers.

- Dissent equals treason

most Americans do not realise that when Congress wrongly, foolishly, passed the Military Commissions Act of 2006 - the president has the power to call any US citizen an "enemy combatant". He has the power to define what "enemy combatant" means. The president can also delegate to anyone he chooses in the executive branch the right to define "enemy combatant" any way he or she wants and then seize Americans accordingly.

Most Americans surely do not get this yet. No wonder: it is hard to believe, even though it is true. In every closing society, at a certain point there are some high-profile arrests - usually of opposition leaders, clergy and journalists. Then everything goes quiet. After those arrests, there are still newspapers, courts, TV and radio, and the facades of a civil society. There just isn't real dissent. There just isn't freedom. If you look at history, just before those arrests is where we are now.

- suspend the rule of law


The John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007 gave the president new powers over the national guard. This means that in a national emergency - which the president now has enhanced powers to declare - he can send Michigan's militia to enforce a state of emergency that he has declared in Oregon, over the objections of the state's governor and its citizens.

Critics see this as a clear violation of the Posse Comitatus Act - which was meant to restrain the federal government from using the military for domestic law enforcement. The Democratic senator Patrick Leahy says the bill encourages a president to declare federal martial law. It also violates the very reason the founders set up our system of government as they did: having seen citizens bullied by a monarch's soldiers, the founders were terrified of exactly this kind of concentration of militias' power over American people in the hands of an oppressive executive or faction.

Of course, the United States is not vulnerable to the violent, total closing-down of the system that followed Mussolini's march on Rome or Hitler's roundup of political prisoners. Our democratic habits are too resilient, and our military and judiciary too independent, for any kind of scenario like that.

Rather our experiment in democracy could be closed down by a process of erosion.


and i didnt even touch on the corporatist and theocratic aspects.

I am glad you did not touch on the other two aspects, due to
the fact that if you did you would have completed a book, and
since you like to write...Beacon Books is hiring.

 

[TVoffBrainOn]

This is typical of you to blame terrorism on the West. It's not foreign policy that drives them to kill “infidels” and they say as much. Hassan, a former radical Islamist said: “I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy. By blaming the Government for our actions… they did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.”

Perhaps this also explains why you are unwilling to believe that people were driven by their religion to fly planes into American buildings and instead chose some grand conspiracy that satisfies your denial of the existence of evil.

its typical of you to give the west a free pass

I don't deny the existent of evil. and i do believe that the terrorists on the 9/11 flights were driven by their religion to fly planes into American Buildings. It's just that i dont conform to a narrow minded ideaology that insists that everything in the world fit into it's walls of comfort.

The problem with your viewpoint is that it is completely illogical. You put 1 quote from some nobody and you think that means that imperial events and human rights violations over the last century dont play a large part in molding the hate and angst that is tought THROUGH the Koran.

You really think foreign policy in the middle east and around the world has not had a major affect on the growth and ideaology of terrorism. i mean, i know that it doesn't fit into your perfect outlook on things, but you're a very smart man, how can you deny this?

look at me i found a quote

"We don't really give a damn for what anybody thinks. We rub everyone's face in it. We're Americans and you're not. We're really talking the Roman Empire here. We'll do anything we want to do and anywhere we want to do it. You're either with us or against us. Multi-lateral institutions like the UN are incidental and irrelevant to the powers that be. This is the image we're sending to the world. That is what much of the world feels about this country this minute."

Charles Lewis, from the Center for Public Integrity in Washington DC, USA

im looking forward to your comments on the other points.

 

[TVoffBrainOn]

This has nothing to do with a willingness to accept “restrictions” and has everything to do with a willingness to recognize evil and prevent it from destroying our civilization.

Spoken like a german in the 1930's

You were challenged to draw parallels between the Nazis and President Bush’s Administration. Military prisons and tribunals are nothing new. In fact, they date back to the Revolution.

Secondly, I have yet to see one shred of evidence of torture at Guantanamo.

That’s all the time I have right now. I’ll try to find some time to respond to your other points. Though I don’t agree, I can appreciate your thoughtfulness and thoroughness – something that the “Bush=Hitler” crowd almost never displays.

i thought i was challenged to draw parallels between world war fascism and american fascism.

you wouldn't see evidence of torture at Guantanamo if you were isolated in a cell with it for 2 months.

 

[political mutt]

I wish I could write, but alas, my talents lie in other areas.

May I urge all taxpayers and voters of this land to communicate with your Senators and Congresspeople! They NEED to hear from you.

A! Where are we going? .... and why are we in this handbasket?

you can write this well!

It is a very skillful cut-n-paste job. So skillful that it flat flew over USMC'S head. He asked for a non cut-n-paste, got one anyhow and then commened him on it?
The cut-n-paste was very skillful, and really not total C&P. The author used C&P, and personal commentary together. As you see, if you have the time ,it can be quite effective.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

you can write this well!

It is a very skillful cut-n-paste job. So skillful that it flat flew over USMC'S head. He asked for a non cut-n-paste, got one anyhow and then commened him on it?
The cut-n-paste was very skillful, and really not total C&P. The author used C&P, and personal commentary together. As you see, if you have the time ,it can be quite effective.

I just took his word on it. I didn't really find it necessary to go through and check whether or not he copied and pasted anything, though I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

I don't know who is ultimately responsible for 911. I sure do know who is responsible for ****ing everything up since 911. And we call this guy commander in chief. What an embarrassment. No wonder we are not winning. Not winning in Iraq. Not winning in Afghanistan. Not winning the so called War on Terror.

 

[TVoffBrainOn]

you can write this well!

It is a very skillful cut-n-paste job. So skillful that it flat flew over USMC'S head. He asked for a non cut-n-paste, got one anyhow and then commened him on it?
The cut-n-paste was very skillful, and really not total C&P. The author used C&P, and personal commentary together. As you see, if you have the time ,it can be quite effective.

I just took his word on it. I didn't really find it necessary to go through and check whether or not he copied and pasted anything, though I shouldn't be surprised.

oh brother

 

[Castle]

Another simple mind checks in. here let me explain this for you I STILL DO KNOW people who were in Nazi Concentration Camps. Is that so hard for your simple mind to wrap around? there are many Holocaust survivors who are still alive today? whats absurd is your ignorance of this fact. now here comes the second part

I have BEEN to all of those places...........i Obviously wasn't there during ww2 as i'm just coming on 50 years of age.I do see the same thing happening in America Today ....and so should alot of you .Like i said don't take my word for it go talk to a Holocaust survivor and have em tell you what they think...

they aren't going to send us to the oven...we are the Germans in this Go around....Its all about the Nazi Doctrine of supremacy and power Globally a Global agenda.......Thule.....Bilderbergs......the list is exhaustive

Well, as I am obviously just another simple mind, I'm sure that superiority complex buried in your delusional mind wont be too taxed if I ask you to draw comparisons between present day America and WWII Nazi Germany. Of course I will have to ask you to be accurate. I know, I know....that's not fair but I do require it if you expect an honest debate.

NO sparky I don't want to see the same horrors befall us that befell the German people and the Jewish people. Take a look at your beloved administration look at abu gharib look at the way we are handling ourselves as the leaders of the world

Well click your heels together three times and say "there's no place like home"
Is this the best you can do?! please tell me you have more than abu gharib! An isolated incident not sanctioned by the US Government. If I remember correctly, those involved were prosecuted and rightfully punished. Did the Nazi's of WWII Germany handle this in the same way? Did the Nazi media run wild with similar stories during WWII? Oh thats right, there was NO German news media except that approved by Hitler! Well there goes that fantasy!

Educate yourself on the Bush-Nazi Ties, and the Business practices of such.....No i don't see Uncle SAM, in every closet, or anything of the like? But then why would i expect an idiot to understand what i m saying? Your simply one of the many who will succumb, when the time comes

Oh, ok....I understand now. You're crystal ball tells you that, in time, your predictions will come to pass. Ok......I'm an idiot. You just keep rubbing that crystal ball. I'll base my conclusions on the mistakes of the past with the hope that people like you don't make them again.

And another thing I never once implied that they were going to march you off to the ovens.............they dont need to cull in such a barbaric manner these days. If and when they decide to cull it wont be like that.......

as i say whats absurd...................is your sheer blindness of the reality.....its far too deep to explain all to you folks in a few posts on a message board.take a close look all around you youll see it its there ask a survivor what they think......


Ill talk to saul in an hour and ill ask him and his buddies again......maybe i can get HIM to post

Please explain in detail what it will be like in that jaded mind of yours. You have my undivided attention as I am truly fascinated to hear your slant.

I also look forward to hearing from saul is it? The horrors of Nazi concentration camps will surly be paralleled with current US policy! I'm sure once this is properly explained to me I will look upon the savagery of Islamic fascism with new eyes and embrace the same revisionist history that you do. Good luck with that!

- Castle

 

[icono1]

Bunz(page 1 quote#2) I agree. Pres Bush reacted like he was in an immediate state of disbelief and real anger (some label those reactions as a degree of psychological shock); that is a reaction not a non-reaction and very 'normal' for the given situation. I've seen it many times.

 

[OPGhostdog]

Who is responsible for the 9/11 attacks?
Islamic terrorists
George Bush and his Administration
the Pentagon
alien death rays
all of the above?


I won't vote for any of the poll items, due to the fact that
the first two is blaming each other, and the Pentagon is
confused. Now what a small mind to say Alien Death Rays.
This oil crisis started long before 1985, and I believe that
once we leave the Middle East's business alone the better
off we will be.

Also I believe that the terrorism crisis RED ALERT will go
down by 70 % if we can learn to mind our own business.
Our Government is good at hitting us in the head with
paragenda, and this way we are to busy rubbing our
heads to see anything else.

Who is responsible for 9-11, but before that question can
be answered look at the back history of the oil crisis in
the Middle East, and from there YOU decide who is the
one responsible for the Middle East war.

 

[TruthAboveAll]

I know that this was in response to USMC, and I'm sure that he'll be along when time permits to respond. But there are a few things I'd like to mention on this post:

its typical of you to give the west a free pass
I don't deny the existent of evil. and i do believe that the terrorists on the 9/11 flights were driven by their religion to fly planes into American Buildings. It's just that i dont conform to a narrow minded ideaology that insists that everything in the world fit into it's walls of comfort.

USMC did not give the west a free pass. When he quoted Hasan, saying "... By blaming the Government for our actions… they did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.” He is not pretending that our government has not made mistakes in the Middle East, and elsewhere in the world for that manner. And Hasan is one of an unidentified number who would corroborate if not in fear for their families, safety and lives. Defying the rule in radical Islam is not good for your health.

If you really want to blame it on the U.S., why don't you just go all the way back to the Industrial Revolution? The U.S. was hugely responsible for all the modern conveniences of the world we know today. It did not exist at all as recently as 200 years ago. A drop in the bucket as history goes. Without all the technology we've developed, and encouraged others to develop from our success, the Islamic people would still be warring, nomadic tribes. Violence has been an over-powering force in their life and history.

Your statement about not conforming to "a narrow minded" ideology is baffling. Fitting in a comfort zone? I think there may be those that could apply to, but I don't think it applies to anyone here attempting to discuss these issues in a thoughtful, rational manner. There is an area that is black and white where good and evil is concerned. Adding too many shades of gray is dangerous.

The problem with your viewpoint is that it is completely illogical. You put 1 quote from some nobody and you think that means that imperial events and human rights violations over the last century dont play a large part in molding the hate and angst that is tought THROUGH the Koran.

Why is it that you, and others who support your viewpoint, often claim that any viewpoint opposing yours is

illogical?

Because the logic utilized to form my opinion may differ from the logic you utilize does not imply that either of us is illogical. It could be the case, but it is not necessarily the fact.

If possible, I'd also be interested to see citation of the "imperial events" and "human rights violations" you refer to. The Koran existed long before the U.S. even came on the world scene. If "hatred and angst" are taught through it, it was there long before us. If you think otherwise, look at history, and the bloody, vicious acts one sect, tribe, etc. committed against another, or any of other faiths that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You really think foreign policy in the middle east and around the world has not had a major affect on the growth and ideaology of terrorism. i mean, i know that it doesn't fit into your perfect outlook on things, but you're a very smart man, how can you deny this?

Actually, I think that foreign policy in the Middle East (and yes, around the world) has had many major effects. Some are good, some are not-so-good, some are downright rotten. But in the balance, the U.S. has done more for the world and to improve it's overall condition than any other human worldly force in history. Mistakes? Sure! But the alternative is really to stay home, keep our toys to ourselves, and let the world go to Hell in a hand basket.

A perfect outlook? If you get that from USMC's posts, or mine (along with others of similar minds), you're dead wrong. None of us any kind of Pollyanna's. But we're also not going to stand by while others try to make the U.S. into some kind of evil entity on a global scale. And that is for us, you, me all of us, to make sure NEVER happens. But based on truth and fact, not on skewed perceptions and one-sided arguments. The light of truth and history must be applied, with commitment and objectivity.

You are totally correct: USMC is one very smart and discerning person. He will not easily fall into any ideological trap that only presents select aspects of issues. And he recognizes evil for what it is, and not a vague title some lightly use just to appear they grasp the concept.

look at me i found a quote

"We don't really give a damn for what anybody thinks. We rub everyone's face in it. We're Americans and you're not. We're really talking the Roman Empire here. We'll do anything we want to do and anywhere we want to do it. You're either with us or against us. Multi-lateral institutions like the UN are incidental and irrelevant to the powers that be. This is the image we're sending to the world. That is what much of the world feels about this country this minute."

Charles Lewis, from the Center for Public Integrity in Washington DC, USA

An interesting quote, and congratulations on finding it.

The first part is wrong. We DO care what others think. Otherwise, Saddam Hussein would have been eliminated in the early 90's. Otherwise Osama Bin Laden would have been killed, despite the messy details of wiping out entire villages to get to him. We would go into countries at random and wipe them out. And when we did we'd not bother to stay to help them rebuild. Etc...

The U.N. irrelevant? If so, it is because it has embraced irrelevance. It has embraced corruption. It has slipped over the edge to socialism, and is edging towards world fascism. Financially and in nearly every other way, the U.S. is still the primary support of the U.N. It would not exist without our help, and yet you support a claim that we view it as irrelevant? When that is truly the case, we will totally withdraw our presence and support.

I agree with Mr. Lewis' claim of how the world views us. But I would carefully examine why that is. Is it truly that we are deserving of it? Okay, there are the "ugly Americans" referred to in regard to tourism. But as a whole? The U.S. deserves that? The U.S. is becoming the ultimate, international scapegoat. Because too many of us are not willing to dig for the truth, not be blinded by conspiracy theories and will fail to figure this out in time, we will most likely pay a dear price for it.