What is a liberal?

[top gun]

???? Most Freemasons in colonial America were Christians.

Freemasons have an interpretation of religion that believes in a supreme being but is not Christian or any other specific religion. It's the Freemasons theory. It stands alone. I'll grant you though many of our founding fathers were at one time Christians before moving to the Freemasons belief structure.

Freemasonry is an organization of men based on the "fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man," using builders' tools as symbols to teach basic moral truths generally accepted by persons of good will. Their motto is "morality in which all men agree, that is, to be good men and true." It is religious in that a belief in a Supreme Being and in the immortality of the soul are the two prime requirements for membership, but it is nonsectarian in that no religious test is used. The purpose of Freemasonry is to enable men to meet in harmony, to promote friendship, and to be charitable. Its basic ideals are that all persons are the children of one God, that all persons are related to each other, and that the best way to worship God is to be of service to people.

 

[jb_1430]

Freemasons have an interpretation of religion that believes in a supreme being but is not Christian or any other specific religion. I'll grant you though many of our founding fathers were at one time Christians before moving to the Freemasons belief structure.

???? I didnt say Freemasonry is Christian. I said most freemasons in colonial America were Christian. And they remained Christian when they became Freemasons. Your claims about "Freemasons", as if they all had the same religious interpretations, is nonsense. Freemasonry is not a religion.

MARK

 

[Kelly]

Freemasonry does not mandate a particular religion to adhere to. The only requirement is that you adhere to a monotheistic religion. I actually have a Jewish Freemason friend as well as a Muslim Freemason friend that both belong to the same lodge. I SWEAR I'm telling the truth. I know you guys will never believe that, but it's true. That's actually how I know about the monotheism requirement for Freemasonry.

 

[jb_1430]

Freemasonry does not mandate a particular religion to adhere to. The only requirement is that you adhere to a monotheistic religion. I actually have a Jewish Freemason friend as well as a Muslim Freemason friend that both belong to the same lodge. I SWEAR I'm telling the truth. I know you guys will never believe that, but it's true. That's actually how I know about the monotheism requirement for Freemasonry.

Nobody claimed that freemasons mandate a particuliar religion. There were not too many Jews or Muslims in colonial America. The religion of your friend couldnt be more irrelevant to the religion of freemasons in colonial America. Like I said, most Freemasons were Christians. MARK

 

[Kelly]

"Nobody claimed that freemasons mandate a particuliar religion. There were not too many Jews or Muslims in colonial America. The religion of your friend couldnt be more irrelevant to the religion of freemasons in colonial America. Like I said, most Freemasons were Christians. MARK"
--Oh, well excuse me smart@$$!

 

[top gun]

???? I didnt say Freemasonry is Christian. I said most freemasons in colonial America were Christian. And they remained Christian when they became Freemasons. Your claims about "Freemasons", as if they all had the same religious interpretations, is nonsense. Freemasonry is not a religion.

MARK

I understand that you would prefer the above but it is not historically accurate. I just watched not one but two documentaries on this subject. One on the History Channel the other I think on the Learning Channel.

Freemasons forever "even in Colonial times" had there own and separate version of religion. While it does have some Christian similarities, a supreme being belief etc. it is absolutely not Christian. It has several positions that focus on man & science that are certainly not Christian doctrine.

The only way I could possibly decipher your point is if you are saying someone could believe and practice two separate & sometimes contradicting positions from a religious perspective. But then again to be a real Christian you can't have religious or worldly beliefs outside of church doctrine and the Freemasons definitely did & do.

So I go back to my first post. Definitely different than Christian.

 

[jb_1430]

How many times do I have to repeat? No one is arguing the Freemasonry is Christianity. No one is arguing that Freemasonry isnt different from christianity. Its not even a religion. Like I said, most freemasons were christians in colonial America. Some of you who think this would be contradictory, simply dont know anything about freemasonry. MARK

I understand that you would prefer the above but it is not historically accurate. I just watched not one but two documentaries on this subject. One on the History Channel the other I think on the Learning Channel.

Freemasons forever "even in Colonial times" had there own and separate version of religion. While it does have some Christian similarities, a supreme being belief etc. it is absolutely not Christian. It has several positions that focus on man & science that are certainly not Christian doctrine.

The only way I could possibly decipher your point is if you are saying someone could believe and practice two separate & sometimes contradicting positions from a religious perspective. But then again to be a real Christian you can't have religious or worldly beliefs outside of church doctrine and the Freemasons definitely did & do.

So I go back to my first post. Definitely different than Christian.

 

[jb_1430]

"Nobody claimed that freemasons mandate a particuliar religion. There were not too many Jews or Muslims in colonial America. The religion of your friend couldnt be more irrelevant to the religion of freemasons in colonial America. Like I said, most Freemasons were Christians. MARK"
--Oh, well excuse me smart@$$!

No problem B#%CH. MARK

 

[Kelly]

"No problem B#%CH. MARK"
LOL!!!

 

[top gun]

How many times do I have to repeat? No one is arguing the Freemasonry is Christianity. No one is arguing that Freemasonry isnt different from christianity. Its not even a religion. Like I said, most freemasons were christians in colonial America. Some of you who think this would be contradictory, simply dont know anything about freemasonry. MARK

And I'm saying that the point of view Freemasons believe in is in many ways contradictory of the beliefs of Christianity. This is a viewpoint that the founding fathers had and it is important to understand that when people today get up on their soap box and start proclaiming religion was always intended to be part of this government and that there was never a specific effort to create a separation of church & state.

It wasn't based on religion!
And it was to be separated!

That's just the fact of things.

 

[jb_1430]

And I'm saying that the point of view Freemasons believe in is in many ways contradictory of the beliefs of Christianity. This is a viewpoint that the founding fathers had and it is important to understand that when people today get up on their soap box and start proclaiming religion was always intended to be part of this government and that there was never a specific effort to create a separation of church & state.

It wasn't based on religion!
And it was to be separated!

That's just the fact of things.

You obviously dont have a clue. You seem to have interpreted the freemasons requirements for membership as some kind of freemason doctrine. Free Masons of colonial America were monotheist. Christianity IS a Monotheist religion. MOST freemasons in colonial America were Christians.

The claim made was that

I believe, as did our Framers, that our inalienable rights come from the Creator, not from the government.

and you replied-

A lot of people say that not understanding the true situation of the time. The truth is it actually wasn't a Christian perspective but something else. George Washington, John Hancock, Ben Franklin, Paul Revere and the list goes on, were all very dedicated "Freemasons". It's a little different way to think about God... or God & Country.

You are wrong. The founders did in fact believe that our rights came from the creator. The freemasons believe that as well as christians. One can be both a Christian and a Freemason, just like most of the freemasons in colonial America. A freemason CAN have a different perspective, and they can have the exact same perspective as Christians. Most of them WERE Christians.
MARK

 

[PLC1]

The founders did in fact believe that our rights came from the creator. The freemasons believe that as well as christians. One can be both a Christian and a Freemason, just like most of the freemasons in colonial America. A freemason CAN have a different perspective, and they can have the exact same perspective as Christians. Most of them WERE Christians.
MARK

Yes, most of the founders were Christians, just as most Americans today are Christians. Yes, the founders believed that our rights came from the creator, and said as much in the Declaration of Independence.

Does that mean that the United States is a Christian country today, or does it simply mean that a majority of the population is Christian?

Does the "Creator" have to be the Christian creator?

The United States is not a Christian nation, and never has been, even if we do have a Christian majority. It is a secular state that includes Christians of the Protestant and Catholic variety, Jews of the Hassidic and Azkanazi variety, Muslims of the Shiite and Sunni variety, Hindus and Sikhs from India, Bhuddists, Unitarians, agnostics, and even a few genuine athiests. All of the above groups, and a lot more I didn't think of, are living here in relative peace, even the ones who are killing each other in other nations. Religious tolerance is our greatest freedom and our proudest legacy. May we never declare ourselves a Christian country. Long live the separation of church and state.

 

[Sgt Schultz]

Yes, most of the founders were Christians, just as most Americans today are Christians. Yes, the founders believed that our rights came from the creator, and said as much in the Declaration of Independence.

Does that mean that the United States is a Christian country today, or does it simply mean that a majority of the population is Christian?

Does the "Creator" have to be the Christian creator?

The United States is not a Christian nation, and never has been, even if we do have a Christian majority. It is a secular state that includes Christians of the Protestant and Catholic variety, Jews of the Hassidic and Azkanazi variety, Muslims of the Shiite and Sunni variety, Hindus and Sikhs from India, Bhuddists, Unitarians, agnostics, and even a few genuine athiests. All of the above groups, and a lot more I didn't think of, are living here in relative peace, even the ones who are killing each other in other nations. Religious tolerance is our greatest freedom and our proudest legacy. May we never declare ourselves a Christian country. Long live the separation of church and state.

Exactly.

 

[jb_1430]

Yes, most of the founders were Christians, just as most Americans today are Christians. Yes, the founders believed that our rights came from the creator, and said as much in the Declaration of Independence.

Does that mean that the United States is a Christian country today, or does it simply mean that a majority of the population is Christian?

???? I dont think youve been following the debate. Not sure why your addressing any of this to me. Top gun seems to think that most of the founders were not christian. USMC said that the founders believed "that our inalienable rights come from the Creator" and top gun responded "A lot of people say that not understanding the true situation of the time."
It is top gun who doesnt understand freemasonry or the situation at the time.
Read up on the "Antients" and "Moderns" in early freemasonry. Freemasonry isnt a religion. They dont have their "own and separate version of religion".
Here's the debate and the last two quotes below discuss the Antients and moderns and Masonry's relationship to Christianity.

I believe, as did our Framers, that our inalienable rights come from the Creator, not from the government.

A lot of people say that not understanding the true situation of the time. The truth is it actually wasn't a Christian perspective but something else. George Washington, John Hancock, Ben Franklin, Paul Revere and the list goes on, were all very dedicated "Freemasons". It's a little different way to think about God... or God & Country.

???? Most Freemasons in colonial America were Christians.

Freemasons have an interpretation of religion that believes in a supreme being but is not Christian or any other specific religion. It's the Freemasons theory. It stands alone. I'll grant you though many of our founding fathers were at one time Christians before moving to the Freemasons belief structure.

???? I didnt say Freemasonry is Christian. I said most freemasons in colonial America were Christian. And they remained Christian when they became Freemasons. Your claims about "Freemasons", as if they all had the same religious interpretations, is nonsense. Freemasonry is not a religion.

I understand that you would prefer the above but it is not historically accurate... Freemasons forever "even in Colonial times" had there own and separate version of religion.

"Antients" and "Moderns" in early freemasonry.

But in the formative days of the first Grand Lodge most Freemasons were Christian, even Trinitarian Christian. Religious dissension in modern lodges and Grand Lodges seems to us impossible; in the formative days it played a big part in the beginnings of the new, often called "schismatic", Grand Lodge...
Dermott kept the Antients a Christian body and wrote distinctively Christian sentiments and references into its Constitutions and its documents....
as the Antients had grown in power and prestige not only in England but in the Colonies until they outnumbered the Moderns in both lodges and brethren,..
"Let a man's religion or mode of worship be what it may, he is not excluded from the Order, provided he believes in the glorious Architect of heaven and earth, and practices the sacred duties of morality."
Grand Master, the Duke of Sussex, from Kensington Palace, in 1842, declaring that Masonry is not identified with any one religion to the exclusion of others,
http://www.mastermason.org/3rdnorthern/library/stb-58-05.htm

For instance, as the 18th century proceeded, there was the rivalry in England between two competing Grand Lodges, the so-called "Moderns" and the "Antients," with the Antients being more likely to include Christian references in Masonic workings.11 The lodges that comprised the Antient Grand Lodge, were adamant that they upheld the earlier traditional rituals and landmarks over and against the innovations of the so-called Moderns.12 These allegedly earlier "Antient" traditions included more overtly Christian references and interpretations of symbols, presumed to date from the days of operative Masonry when society was overwhelmingly Christian.13 The "Moderns," on the other hand, appeared more likely to embrace Enlightenment values pointing towards a brotherhood beyond mere Christianity.14
It was not until the merger of the "Antients" and the "Moderns" in 1813, (preceded by several decades of negotiation), that we might claim that the Enlightenment values of non-sectarian, universal brotherhood really held sway in Freemasonry.
And even then, there is much evidence that various residual Christian symbols and references have remained in Anglo-American Freemasonry, right up to the present.17 We need only think of the reference, in the First Degree ritual of many American jurisdictions, to the lodge being dedicated to the holy Saints John, to cite an obvious example.18
http://mill-valley.freemasonry.biz/freemasonry_religion.htm

 

[top gun]

jb_1430;8736]You obviously dont have a clue. You seem to have interpreted the freemasons requirements for membership as some kind of freemason doctrine. Free Masons of colonial America were monotheist. Christianity IS a Monotheist religion. MOST freemasons in colonial America were Christians.

I'll try to clear that up as I go...

You are wrong. The founders did in fact believe that our rights came from the creator. The freemasons believe that as well as christians. One can be both a Christian and a Freemason, just like most of the freemasons in colonial America. A freemason CAN have a different perspective, and they can have the exact same perspective as Christians. Most of them WERE Christians.
MARK

Ok this is the similarity & difference. Yes both Christianity & Freemasons doctrine believed in a creator. However absolutely & undeniably the Framers which I cited and more that were Freemasons did not want any religious "control" on the new government that they were creating.

It was fine with them to cite a CREATOR or GOD as looking out for the new country (please notice Jesus was not mentioned). Invoking God was being used in the same sense as the American Bald Eagle as a symbol of protection & strength.

So what I'm saying is that because the Framers adamantly wanted a true separation between church & state as to safeguard America from the conflict that many had fled England to free themselves from (Church of England being in effect a part of that government exerting over zealous influence). The Freemasons theory allowed for a modification in standard Christian believes to accommodate the aforementioned wants & needs.

So I guess you could say there were Freemasons that were Christians but they also held to a different standard at the very least in regard to their new government. Their obvious goal was to be open to any & all religions and NOT set up one as the presiding one regardless of their personal beliefs. Very smart indeed!