Understanding the Enemy

I am mad and want to know how we are going to make some real changes when most out there keep voting for those who are bent on destroying our country (whether they realize what they are doing or not) and they will be the ones who will scream the loudest when it's to late to do anything. Regarding proxy wars, we seem to have invented the term and it seems everyone we help eventually turns on us. Maybe we should just stop helping. I'm tired of being the worlds watch dog and trying to make everyone have the same ideologies as we do. Hey, people and countries are different and that is what makes this a diverse world. How would we like it if say Iran tried to get us to take over their doctrines and way of life? Tried telling us this is the way it has to be in order for us to get help from them etc. (roll reversal). Get the picture? ... if we don't watch our tails someone is going to bite it off and then puff ... their goes our country ....... :eek:
 
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I am mad and want to know how we are going to make some real changes when most out there keep voting for those who are bent on destroying our country (whether they realize what they are doing or not) and they will be the ones who will scream the loudest when it's to late to do anything. Regarding proxy wars, we seem to have invented the term and it seems everyone we help eventually turns on us. Maybe we should just stop helping. I'm tired of being the worlds watch dog and trying to make everyone have the same ideologies as we do. Hey, people and countries are different and that is what makes this a diverse world. How would we like it if say Iran tried to get us to take over their doctrines and way of life? Tried telling us this is the way it has to be in order for us to get help from them etc. (roll reversal). Get the picture? ... if we don't watch our tails someone is going to bite it off and then puff ... their goes our country ....... :eek:

People are control freaks ... they expect systems to legislate laws to control everyone instead of picking up a weapon and PROTECT YOURSELF!

That is why the former free nation of the United States of America has MORE laws governing her people
than Communist Hungary had in place controling their people!

IT IS A GREAT DAY! We are controlled more than a commie countries people were ...
 
"TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's president said on Sunday the publication of a U.S. intelligence report saying Iran had halted a nuclear weapons program in 2003 amounted to a "declaration of surrender" by Washington in its row with Tehran.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also dismissed in an interview with state television the prospect of new U.N. sanctions against Iran over its refusal to halt sensitive atomic work.

"It is too far-fetched," he said when asked whether he expected the U.N. Security Council to impose fresh sanctions on Iran following two such resolutions since last December.

Ahmadinejad, who often rails against the West, told a rally earlier this month that the December 3 publication of the U.S. National Intelligence Estimate was a "victory" for Iran."

it's important to note the stance Iran is taking. it's aggressive and wartone.

You cannot deny, that until the recent NIE report, the Bush administration was beating the war drums. Fortunately, the report's conclusions caused the head war monger and his fellow PNAC henchmen, to lose significant credibility.
 
You cannot deny, that until the recent NIE report, the Bush administration was beating the war drums. Fortunately, the report's conclusions caused the head war monger and his fellow PNAC henchmen, to lose significant credibility.

The guy who wrote the 2007 NIE (headed the team anyway) used the Iranian definition of a weapons program to write up the findings. Basically it could have simply gone "Iranian said they don't have them, so they don't have them."

That same NIE also states "We judge with moderate confidence that the earliest possible date Iran would be technically capable of producing enough HEU for a weapon is late 2009."

And also, "We also assess with high confidence that since fall 2003, Iran has been conducting research and development projects with commercial and conventional military applications—some of which would also be of limited use for nuclear weapons."

"In our judgment, only an Iranian political decision to abandon a nuclear weapons objective would plausibly keep Iran from eventually producing nuclear weapons—and such a decision is inherently reversible."

"We assess with high confidence that Iran has the scientific, technical and industrial capacity eventually to produce nuclear weapons if it decides to do so."

Anyway, I think it is worth wondering aloud why Iran would have stopped their program (as this alleges) in 2003? North Korea is rumored to have halted as well in 2003 for a brief time, and Libya gave its up. If anything, the Iraq war got a lot of these nations worried about their programs.
 
"TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's president said on Sunday the publication of a U.S. intelligence report saying Iran had halted a nuclear weapons program in 2003 amounted to a "declaration of surrender" by Washington in its row with Tehran.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also dismissed in an interview with state television the prospect of new U.N. sanctions against Iran over its refusal to halt sensitive atomic work.

"It is too far-fetched," he said when asked whether he expected the U.N. Security Council to impose fresh sanctions on Iran following two such resolutions since last December.

Ahmadinejad, who often rails against the West, told a rally earlier this month that the December 3 publication of the U.S. National Intelligence Estimate was a "victory" for Iran."

it's important to note the stance Iran is taking. it's aggressive and wartone.

its also important to know Iran's culture and style...that is to be expected...you start out hard, beat your chest, and all that...its fairly typical of there negotiation style...people forget that meanings of things change with culture differences. Even when calling the US, Saten...has different meaning then when herd by western listeners...becuse the view of saten is not the same....not that it makes it a nice thing still...
 
TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's president said on Sunday the publication of a U.S. intelligence report saying Iran had halted a nuclear weapons program in 2003 amounted to a "declaration of surrender" by Washington in its row with Tehran.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also dismissed in an interview with state television the prospect of new U.N. sanctions against Iran over its refusal to halt sensitive atomic work.

"It is too far-fetched," he said when asked whether he expected the U.N. Security Council to impose fresh sanctions on Iran following two such resolutions since last December.

I really appreciate with this forum.

Thank you.
 
Ok, Here We Go! Iran is a dangerous country. They need to be stopped before they nuke us all. The United Nations does not help because they know we will stick our nose in it and they can just sit back and watch. We are not the World Police! Send our troops home to protect us. We need our borders policed and more focus on our Homeland Security. We have nuts all over the place. More law enforcement and intelligence is required which would in turn create more jobs and businesses here in the United States. We cannot change what is going on in the Middle East. They all hate us anyway.
 
Here We Go, et al,

Actually, I can understand your frustration.

Ok, Here We Go! Iran is a dangerous country. They need to be stopped before they nuke us all. The United Nations does not help because they know we will stick our nose in it and they can just sit back and watch. We are not the World Police! Send our troops home to protect us. We need our borders policed and more focus on our Homeland Security. We have nuts all over the place. More law enforcement and intelligence is required which would in turn create more jobs and businesses here in the United States. We cannot change what is going on in the Middle East. They all hate us anyway.
(COMMENTS)

  • They need to be stopped before they nuke us all.
    • A nuclear Iran is a double-edge sword. While it is a Regional Threat and places Iran in a "strongman position" in the Persian Gulf, it is also a very grave liability to them. The Nuclear Club is no place to dance in. With a Nuclear capability, any false move will be met with a grave response.

      If you subscribe to the theory that the Iranians are self-destructive, and will launch an attack without regard to their total annihilation, then no amount of rational discussion will make any difference. And three (3) things will occur:
      • At the time of the attack, the target will suffer significant damage.
      • A retaliatory strike will destroy civilization in Iran that will reduce them to a 19th Century Civilization.
      • The nations of the world will turn totally against the belief structure behind Islam; as a demonstrated harmful system of belief to humanity.

      The most likely reason for a nuclear exchange, is a misunderstanding. Most nations will have less than 15 minutes to make the critical decisions will determine the fate of Iran.

      As far as the Iranian drones are concerned, they are militarily insignificant as they are now; and as they relate to warhead packages and general conventional weaponization. Most nations of the world have the ability to detect, track, target acquire and interdict them with little effort. This is a not an issue.

      Again, if the Religious Leaders of Iran want the continuation of Islam, as they practice it, they will not place themselves in a position that will attribute Islam (as a belief structure) with the epitome of evil; the destructors of humanity which Allah created. It will be a self condemning demonstration that the top accredited teachers of Islam are unworthy of following. It will destroy Islam, as a belief structure.
  • We are not the World Police!
    • No, but this is a concept that the US should be a hegemony. It is not a new concept, by any means. During my tenure in Vietnam, it was perpetuated by the "Whiz Kids" (the Administration's brightest and best). During my tenure in Iraq, the proponent was the PNAC (Project for a New American Century). Until we get rid of that mentality, we are doomed to continue a similar path and making the same mistakes.
  • We have nuts all over the place.
    • Yes, you're correct, there are opponents in every direction across the entire spectrum (economic, political, militarily, etc). Some merely competitive and some hostile.
  • More law enforcement and intelligence is required which would in turn create more jobs and businesses here in the United States.
    • When I was participating in the Hart-Rudman Task Force on Homeland Security Discussion Group (pre-9/11), it was clear that the Congressional support was proposing a "reactive organization" as opposed to a proactive and preemptive organization to detect, exploit and neutralize hostile threats like todays Jihadist. It was a preconceived notion that a serious attack attempt would be successful. Even the idea of a Airliner Threat was discussed. But prevention was deemed futile, and the thrust and emphasis was placed on post-attack recovery and response. The government leadership was advocating a position that a major terrorist attack was inevitable and we needed to develop a post-action response (first responder capabilities). Our National Security Decision Making Process had been broken for many years. It was broke by the Church Commission and Congress and It still is broken (now half a century later). And Congress knows this. It is noted as much in this new Appropriation Act; with a special paragraph on the NCIX being mention in it.
  • We cannot change what is going on in the Middle East. They all hate us anyway.
    • It is unlikely that, without a new genius in our government, we will be a significant factor in bring peace and tranquility to the Middle East. We are neither competent in our basic ME KSAs, nor are we viewed as a trust agent and honest broker. In Iraq, we created another Islamic State where there wasn't one before hand. We completely botched the post-conflict reconstruction and allow the insurgency to tear Iraq apart. After, what our government calls a very successful election, six months later, the government does show any progress in forming.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
I posted this on another board..This is what I think about Muhammed/Islam and you can decide whether I'm "vilifying" thim.

But, remember, to "vilify" someone, what you say has to be untrue. It's not vilification if it's the truth.

I am just a guy on a message board reporting on what I have found. I know a few people here would like to think I'm advocating hatred, but I'm not. They just don't like what I have to say, that's all. Well, life is rough all around, I guess. Personally, I think Christ got it right, and he transcended hatred. I, on the other hand, am just an imperfect, unenlightened sinner, but I do deeply believe that the truth will set you free, so that's my quest. Pretty simple, really.

So, as for what I have to say about Muhammed, don't anyone take my word for it. Please, do your own DD, and then tell me what part of this is untrue....

First, Muhammed was a war-monger.

Second, for a prophet, he didn t have much of a clue, to wit: When Jabril appeared to him, he thought it was the jinn, which were the Arab pagan gods (or demi-gods - whatever). What kind of prophet doesn't even recognize when God is talking to him? Moreover, he didn't even understand who Abraham, Moses and Jesus were until the Jews explained it to him. Yet he claims Islam is intended to set the record straight, because the Jews and Christians got it all wrong. How can that be if he didn't have any clue about the people he was talking about and had to rely on the Jews to help him interpret what God was telling him?

Third, in "reciting" the Koran, he promulgated, if you will, thousands of very repetitive verses that fall into two basic categories: warnings as to what will happen to the unbelievers; and instructions on what to say to the Christians and Jews. But, he didn't separate them, as two distinct themes. Rather, he intertwined these verses, so that they alternate. That maximizes the chance of blurring the distinctions, and maximizes the chance of confusing the Christians and the Jews with the unbelievers. And, clearly, that is exactly what has happened. But, if these two sets of ideas were intended to be distinct and different, then why not either say so or separate them? That's no accident, because this technique is repeated over and over and over throughout the Koran. By so-doing, it creates a tone - an impression - that is anti-Judeo-Christian without explicitly saying so. As a form of political brainwashing, it's truly ingenious.

Fourth, the Koran deconstructs both Judaism and Christianity. It does not deconstruct the "self" (i.e., the "believer"). This is why there has never been any real, serious exegesis of the Koran in 1,300 years. (In contrast, Christianity entered modernity when the Reformation brought about a new, critical deconstruction.) But, the Koran simply does not lend itself to it, because it eschews introspection. The greater emphasis is placed on condemning others. And this is yet another reason why there is virtually no criticism or questioning of the Koran: the downside risk of being labeled an "unbeliever" is too severe. And infidels, of course, are dealt with harshly. Consequently, the substance and tone of the Koran tend to operate to encourage people to point fingers at everyone else, lest someone point fingers at them first. IMO, what you see in the Islamic world today is the natural by-product of this kind of thinking, and it all came out of the mouth of Muhammed.

Fifth, the Koran is only part of a wider body of literature, known as hadith, that is based on what Muhammed said and did. When you look at the hadith, you see all the violence - you see all the references to jihad fi sabil Illah (jihad in the path of God) that are clearly military efforts, and not merely the more innocuous version of jihad, i.e.,"striving" (though, even striving, it turns out, is not completely innocuous, but I'll omit that discussion here). So, here you have Muhammed characterizing his battles against others as jihad in the path of God. What more need I say? In the aftermath of 9/11, you see the Islamic world trying to play down the non-Koranic hadith (in statements for western consumption, that is) because it's not pretty. But, go check out the hadith for yourself, and then ask whether I am vilifying Muhammed. He did it all to himself. I'm just the messenger.

Sixth, the Koran and hadith, as I'm sure everyone realizes by now, is also a political blueprint. It comes with its own set of laws, known as Sharia, which includes some barbaric punishments. It also devotes a good amount of attention to the who, what, when, where and why of waging war. The world is divided into two camps: Dar al-Islam (House of Islam) and Dar al-Harb (House of War). All lands that are ruled according to Muslim law are Dar al-Islam and all lands ruled by anyone else (e.g., the U.S.) are Dar al-Harb. This is Muhammed's grand and enlightened world view. You might want to contrast that with the teachings of Christ or Buddha. But, because the Koran is also a political/legal document, you can go pick up a Muslim newspaper here in the U.S. and read for yourselves the ongoing discussions about whether Muslims should accept the U.S. Constitution only conditionally, and only to the extent that it conforms to the Koran. Read these discussions for yourselves; I have.

Seventh, the Koran, ontologically, incorporates a notion of "justice for this physical plane of reality. But, I would suggest to you that it is justice without mercy. Read the Koran and hadith for yourselves, and decide for yourselves how much mercy is contained in it. I think it is merciless. But, if you think about it, we wouldn't need justice at all if we all had mercy. Now, granted, both are ideals that we strive for in an imperfect world, and we don't achieve either with anything close to perfection. However, that does not change the fact that one of those ideals is "higher" than the other. If we had mercy, we would not need justice. But, note how the converse is not true: if we have justice, we still need mercy. ( And earthly power doth then show likest God s, when Mercy seasons Justice. - The Merchant of Venice)

The fact that mercy is not achieved with perfection is not a justification for abandoning mercy in favor of justice, because justice can not be achieved with perfection either. So, in abandoning mercy in favor of justice, all we have really done is abandoned a higher ideal for a lesser one. The world will still be imperfect, only now it is pursuing a lesser ideal. That is clearly an inferior ontology. Anyway, Christ preached mercy, but Muhammed derogates mercy in favor of justice - when he's not busy fighting wars, that is.

I'll finish with a few thoughts and some of my own conclusions:

I have a friend and he is a Muslim. As I was giving him a ride home, we were talking about the Iraq situation, and had an interesting and friendly discussion. He's a nice guy, and all that. And I guess one would say he has a lot of "western" values. He believes in God, but isn't very religious, and most of his friends here in the U.S. are not Muslim. But, the fact is that he's a hell of a lot more enlightened that Muhammed ever was. And, I know he's not the only one, but I would have to say the same thing about other Muslims like him - they are all far more enlightened than Muhammed, and more enlightened than the Koran itself. So both my friend and I are sort of in the same boat - we both are more enlightened than Muhammed, and we both are less enlightened than Christ. More power to anyone who seeks enlightenment, but you won't find it in the life of Muhammed, because we've already surpassed him, and that includes my friend.

To put it another way, based on my reading of the Koran, hadith, and the life of Muhammed, I don't think the militant extremists are the ones who have corrupted the Koran. I think they have it exactly right. I think it's the Muslims, like my friend those who actually believe in getting along with others - who have "corrupted" the Koran. I applaud them for doing it, obviously. It warms my heart to see the Kurds in northern Iraq creating such a civilized community for themselves amidst all the surrounding violence and turmoil, and despite all that has been done to them. I applaud all of that. But, Muhammed wouldn't applaud it, so let's just be clear about that. And that is what makes Islam dangerous: the closer you get to its core - the closer you get to the hadith and to Muhammed - the more dangerous it gets. Yet, this enduring seed is impenetrable. It's like trying to get rid of a wart; you can try to get rid of the dead skin and the "growth," but until you drill down and get that virus that's at the root, it keeps coming back.

There's an expression: the problem with communism is communism, but the problem with capitalism is capitalists. Whether you agree with that or not, the point it is trying to make is that, with communism, it is the idea itself that is flawed; with capitalism, on the other hand, it's not the idea that is flawed, but the way it is practiced. (Again, I'm not interested in anyone arguing about whether that's true; the point is to see the kind of distinction being drawn.) Well, I would say the same thing about Islam and Christianity: the problem with Islam is Islam, and the problem with Christianity is Christians. In other words, Christianity would be a really great thing if people actually emulated Christ, but they don t always. But, for all the peace-loving Muslims out there (and I don't deny they are out there) who believe in religious tolerance, and love and compassion even for non-Muslims - for all of them, Muhammed is not someone to be emulated, but, rather, someone who must be overcome. I do agree that there is an important epistemological distinction that must be made..but to bring the two together, Christians need to uncover Christ, while Muslims need to bury Muhammed.

Regards
Doug
 
Ok, Here We Go! Iran is a dangerous country. They need to be stopped before they nuke us all. The United Nations does not help because they know we will stick our nose in it and they can just sit back and watch. We are not the World Police! Send our troops home to protect us. We need our borders policed and more focus on our Homeland Security. We have nuts all over the place. More law enforcement and intelligence is required which would in turn create more jobs and businesses here in the United States. We cannot change what is going on in the Middle East. They all hate us anyway.

How are they going to nuke anyone if they don't have the means? And even if they acquire nukes, do you honestly believe they would risk becoming a block of melted slag by using their nukes against the U.S., or Israel, or any other nuclear power? To what end? You give them credit for having more power than they actually have or will ever have.
 
How are they going to nuke anyone if they don't have the means? And even if they acquire nukes, do you honestly believe they would risk becoming a block of melted slag by using their nukes against the U.S., or Israel, or any other nuclear power? To what end? You give them credit for having more power than they actually have or will ever have.

if I could be sure there were something like 70 virgins for me in heaven when I die ... heck yeah!

POOOOF SUCKERS - I am set up for eternity!

Some people have a tremendous amount of faith in God!
I do ... but my God is not the God demanding I destroy all people!
 
if I could be sure there were something like 70 virgins for me in heaven when I die ... heck yeah!

POOOOF SUCKERS - I am set up for eternity!

Some people have a tremendous amount of faith in God!
I do ... but my God is not the God demanding I destroy all people!

If you are a Christian, then history shows quite clearly that your god has demanded all sorts of things in his name. It's right there in the Bible. God demanded that the Israelites destroy Jericho, among other towns, to rape and pillage it's people, and kill the women and children. Then there were the crusades, the witch hunts, the inquisition, the forced conversion and/or slaughter of the Native Amercian population, Jonestown, etc, etc, etc.
 
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If you are a Christian, then history shows quite clearly that your god has demanded all sorts of things in his name. It's right there in the Bible. God demanded that the Israelites destroy Jericho, among other towns, to rape and pillage it's people, and kill the women and children. Then there were the crusades, the witch hunts, the inquisition, the forced conversion and/or slaughter of the Native Amercian population, Jonestown, etc, etc, etc.
... so? and your point is? ... I know all that!

I am just saying that IF MY GOD WERE TO PROMISE ME 70 VIRGINS - I WOULD KILL THE WORLD

TRUTH IS - the God I know is not a God of the flesh ... no buying of nukes for me! :D
 
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