Two Party System = EPIC FAIL!!!

That is the most bizarre statement I've ever heard- these past 20 years have seen nothing but free market capitalism take over not just the U.S. but the entire world.

You stated much, but this statement reveals everything. We can't agree on anything, if you really believe the past 20 years the entire world operated under free market capitalism. That is just plain absurd and patently false. The United States and most of the western world have operated under a mixed system of socialism and capitalism for decades. Free market capitalism means the government is NOT involved in the economy in any significant way. So, you believe the government was not involved in the economy the past 20 years and had NOTHING to do with the financial crisis. Most absurd.

And you continue to believe that regulations have been removed, yet we have more regulations today on all sectors of our economy, including the financial sector, than we ever had. So again, more regulations are not the answer. Secondly, your belief that regulations will fix the wrongs in our economy, is foolish. As we have discussed, the regulations we have now are not enforced because the regulators and the politicians are corrupt bastards. Your belief that government imposed regulations will fix things, is terribly naive.
 
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Expect dems to lose more members of congress and gain republican because of TEA PARTY. And Dems will lose seats in the Senate as well becasuse of Tea Party folks cause they still dont get it. Harry Reid wants more spending and higher taxes.
 
I have no idea what steveox is rambling about, but as for your comments-

The United States and most of the western world have operated under a mixed system of socialism and capitalism for decades. Free market capitalism means the government is NOT involved in the economy in any significant way. So, you believe the government was not involved in the economy the past 20 years and had NOTHING to do with the financial crisis. Most absurd.

If you consider things like a fire department and public libraries socialism, then yes, our government actually has programs paid by our taxes that benefit everyone. But in a "significant way" , the only socialism we are experience is that of giving corporations money to keep going after they have deservedly gone bankrupt. That, I agree, is crazy and destructive. And, again, I've given you plenty of examples that show how the government has become less and less involved in our big-business economic transactions since 1980. I mean, they're very involved in the sense that they are very actively plowing down all the regulations that we used to have, so of course they have a LOT to do with the financial crisis, because they're the morons that allowed the laws to erode. So stop saying things I never said. But if you're going to assert that somehow all this activity has gone towards a socialist state instead of a free-market-neocon state, you're nuts. I mean, absolutely nuts. You have no evidence for this, because it doesn't exist. I am trying to bridge the gap here between the liberal camp and the conservative camp, but your arguments are the reason liberals stereotype conservatives into the backwards morons they love to ridicule. You have to pay attention to what's going on rather than just swallowing whatever pill they keep feeding you. Show me how corporate America and Wall Street have been subject to more regulations since 1980. Glass-Steagall is like the poster child for what's been going on. That's deregulation, not more regulation.

I don't think reinstating regulations alone will fix the economy- but that's one part of fixing the economy that our government CAN affect. As long as all these economic checks and balances are gone, there's no reason why financial institutions are going to listen to our complaints- why should they? No one is punishing them for their actions. I know politicians are corrupt bastards- that's exactly why they've been deregulating everything, because they are bought off by companies who's interest is in having Washington let them go and do whatever, all in the name of "leave the market to run freely and it will regulate itself." Which didn't happen in Chile after Pinochet, hasn't happened in Mexico after NAFTA, and isn't happening here after 20 years of deregulation.

You keep ignoring what I'm saying and keep trying to pin some kind of liberal stereotype on me. Go back and read what I'm saying with fresh eyes. Then, if you want to find examples of how we've been over-regulating corporate America since 1980, go ahead. I'm sure you'll find some little law somewhere, but you cannot possibly look at the overall direction of our government since Reagan and not notice who's been calling the shots. And just be logical here: who has the money? Corporations. Wall Street. Does it benefit them to have more laws that limit their power, or less? If you agree that our government is corrupt, then what logic is there in them making laws that bite the hand that feeds them? That doesn't make any sense. They're going to serve whomever gives them the most money- and that's an easy one to follow, just follow the lobbyists. Recently, our Supreme Court decided that corporations are actual people and can donate as such. That doesn't sound like the slippery slope to socialism to me.

There, I've spend way too long giving you facts and proof about all this. If you still want to chant your mantra, feel free. The facts are pretty easy to find if you're actually curious to know them. Good luck!
 
I have no idea what steveox is rambling about, but as for your comments-



If you consider things like a fire department and public libraries socialism, then yes, our government actually has programs paid by our taxes that benefit everyone. But in a "significant way" , the only socialism we are experience is that of giving corporations money to keep going after they have deservedly gone bankrupt. That, I agree, is crazy and destructive. And, again, I've given you plenty of examples that show how the government has become less and less involved in our big-business economic transactions since 1980. I mean, they're very involved in the sense that they are very actively plowing down all the regulations that we used to have, so of course they have a LOT to do with the financial crisis, because they're the morons that allowed the laws to erode. So stop saying things I never said. But if you're going to assert that somehow all this activity has gone towards a socialist state instead of a free-market-neocon state, you're nuts. I mean, absolutely nuts. You have no evidence for this, because it doesn't exist. I am trying to bridge the gap here between the liberal camp and the conservative camp, but your arguments are the reason liberals stereotype conservatives into the backwards morons they love to ridicule. You have to pay attention to what's going on rather than just swallowing whatever pill they keep feeding you. Show me how corporate America and Wall Street have been subject to more regulations since 1980. Glass-Steagall is like the poster child for what's been going on. That's deregulation, not more regulation.

I don't think reinstating regulations alone will fix the economy- but that's one part of fixing the economy that our government CAN affect. As long as all these economic checks and balances are gone, there's no reason why financial institutions are going to listen to our complaints- why should they? No one is punishing them for their actions. I know politicians are corrupt bastards- that's exactly why they've been deregulating everything, because they are bought off by companies who's interest is in having Washington let them go and do whatever, all in the name of "leave the market to run freely and it will regulate itself." Which didn't happen in Chile after Pinochet, hasn't happened in Mexico after NAFTA, and isn't happening here after 20 years of deregulation.

You keep ignoring what I'm saying and keep trying to pin some kind of liberal stereotype on me. Go back and read what I'm saying with fresh eyes. Then, if you want to find examples of how we've been over-regulating corporate America since 1980, go ahead. I'm sure you'll find some little law somewhere, but you cannot possibly look at the overall direction of our government since Reagan and not notice who's been calling the shots. And just be logical here: who has the money? Corporations. Wall Street. Does it benefit them to have more laws that limit their power, or less? If you agree that our government is corrupt, then what logic is there in them making laws that bite the hand that feeds them? That doesn't make any sense. They're going to serve whomever gives them the most money- and that's an easy one to follow, just follow the lobbyists. Recently, our Supreme Court decided that corporations are actual people and can donate as such. That doesn't sound like the slippery slope to socialism to me.

There, I've spend way too long giving you facts and proof about all this. If you still want to chant your mantra, feel free. The facts are pretty easy to find if you're actually curious to know them. Good luck!

You have stated we need regulations to control big business. You have also stated that the past 20 years the WORLD has operated under Free Market Capitalism. Both statements are factually INCORRECT.

First, government has INCREASINGLY imposed regulations on EVERYTHING. Our economy is OVER regulated by BIG government. But, yes, those regulations are ignored or "paid off" by the largest corporations. So, in effect, regulations ARE MEANINGLESS.

And by the way, government is NOT Deregulating, as you claim. They are merely giving the big corporations a pass. Smaller corporations and organizations must still abide by the regulations or face stiff penalties. You have your definitions confused.

We now have To Big To Fail corporations with tremendous power. You think this situation was caused by Free Market Capitalism. It is NOT. It is Crony Capitalism. The two economic systems have NOTHING in common.

Question: Was Hebert Hoover a free market capitalist and did his Laissez-faire policies cause the Great Depression?

Question: Was George W Bush a free market capitalist and did his policies cause the Great Recession?

You fail to recognize that government and big business are sleeping together. They are on the SAME TEAM!!! To think that your beloved big government is now going to fix things, is unbelievably naive. Obama and the Ds had their chance to fix this problem when he took office. Instead of fixing it, they made it much worse.
 
^^^ Three excellent videos that explain the wonderful benefits of free market capitalism versus the negative aspects of big government crony capitalism. If only all or most Americans understood the principles laid out in those videos, we would not be in the terrible situation we find ourselves as a nation.

It is amazing that some Americans condemn big business, while demanding big government fix the problems caused by big business, when both are essentially on the same team. How can one see the negative consequences of big business, but fail to see the horrors of big government?

The solution is simple - free market capitalism accompanied by small limited government. Sadly, the likelihood of attaining the solution is just about nil. Thanks in part, to the statist indoctrination many Americans have accepted and the wealth and power the elites in government and business have acquired.
 
Wow, I go away for a weekend and you guys go nuts. If you really think that allowing unrestrained trade is going to work, you're the ones that are naive. Just on a simple, logical level- the reasons regulations come up in the first place is that someone went overboard at some point abusing the current system and pushed it to the point where the government had to step in and do something about it. If you remove labor laws, employers will cut benefits and demand longer hours with no incentive to compensate- which is what they were doing until people started unionizing. This is pretty basic stuff. If you remove EPA laws, companies will start polluting the air and water more with their waste, which is exactly what the did for decades until environmental regulations came into play. And if you remove the barriers that kept corporations from growing to large, becoming monopolies and completely upsetting a balanced trade system, you get where we are now, because that's what happened. Just because you say it didn't happen doesn't make it true. I gave you facts, you give me bumper sticker responses?

And you continue to chant your silly mantra that claims I love governments and trust them and think they're the answer. I know they're in cahoots with big business- THAT'S why they're removing regulations. What you're claiming has no fundamental logical basis, as I already explained. If you guys are convinced the government and big business are in cahoots together, then why would they create MORE regulations that LIMIT big business' ability to do what it wants? That makes no sense whatsoever. The only logical conclusion you can draw from the fact that they are in bed together is that the government is going to do whatever they want them to do. No company or CEO wants MORE regulations- that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard! I mean, seriously, just think about what you're saying!

You have to understand, ideologically, I hate laws and rules. They just get in the way of smart people trying to do smart things. But I recognize reality and I read history and I can analyze current events. It's not hard to put 1 and 1 together here. Capitalism, like any system, has strong and weak points, and the weak points of capitalism is that, left unchecked, it encourages people to cut corners and prioritize the bottom line, which is NOT in society's best interest. So the only way for capitalism to work is to keep it in check, like I just explained, with labor laws, environmental laws, you name it. Remove them and we go backwards in time to dark, embarrassing places in our nation's history. Read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" if you're confused, as a basic example.

So uh, yeah. Now it's your turn to tell me I'm being naive because I think governments are our savior again.
 
Wow, I go away for a weekend and you guys go nuts. If you really think that allowing unrestrained trade is going to work, you're the ones that are naive. Just on a simple, logical level- the reasons regulations come up in the first place is that someone went overboard at some point abusing the current system and pushed it to the point where the government had to step in and do something about it. If you remove labor laws, employers will cut benefits and demand longer hours with no incentive to compensate- which is what they were doing until people started unionizing. This is pretty basic stuff. If you remove EPA laws, companies will start polluting the air and water more with their waste, which is exactly what the did for decades until environmental regulations came into play. And if you remove the barriers that kept corporations from growing to large, becoming monopolies and completely upsetting a balanced trade system, you get where we are now, because that's what happened. Just because you say it didn't happen doesn't make it true. I gave you facts, you give me bumper sticker responses?

And you continue to chant your silly mantra that claims I love governments and trust them and think they're the answer. I know they're in cahoots with big business- THAT'S why they're removing regulations. What you're claiming has no fundamental logical basis, as I already explained. If you guys are convinced the government and big business are in cahoots together, then why would they create MORE regulations that LIMIT big business' ability to do what it wants? That makes no sense whatsoever. The only logical conclusion you can draw from the fact that they are in bed together is that the government is going to do whatever they want them to do. No company or CEO wants MORE regulations- that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard! I mean, seriously, just think about what you're saying!

You have to understand, ideologically, I hate laws and rules. They just get in the way of smart people trying to do smart things. But I recognize reality and I read history and I can analyze current events. It's not hard to put 1 and 1 together here. Capitalism, like any system, has strong and weak points, and the weak points of capitalism is that, left unchecked, it encourages people to cut corners and prioritize the bottom line, which is NOT in society's best interest. So the only way for capitalism to work is to keep it in check, like I just explained, with labor laws, environmental laws, you name it. Remove them and we go backwards in time to dark, embarrassing places in our nation's history. Read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" if you're confused, as a basic example.

So uh, yeah. Now it's your turn to tell me I'm being naive because I think governments are our savior again.


Who is removing regulations TODAY? I know of no one REMOVING regulations, but I do know that hundreds are being added daily.

You fail to understand how big business works. They LOVE regulations as you do. They merely buy off the politicians and regulators so that they do not have to comply. But....BUT...here is where you fail....those regulations most still be complied with by smaller firms. Who do not have political connections and big time cash for payoffs. So, big biz's competitors are at a major disadvantage. Do you see now WHY big biz LOVES regulations?

And you think this is Capitalism.....too funny.

America has NOT operated under capitalism for DECADES. Believing such an absurdity diminishes your argument ENTIRELY.

You think we are advocating for capitalism without ANY ground rules. That too is absurd. No one here stated this but you. You are very good at 'strawman' debating tactics.

Did I forget to call you NAIVE???...ops sorry.;) Please watch the three short videos posted above. They will enlighten you.
 
I know they're in cahoots with big business- THAT'S why they're removing regulations.
That claim is demonstrably false. I posted direct links to Regulation.gov debunking your claim, proving it has no factual basis.

On average, 8,000 regulations are added every year... There have been over 6,000 new regulations added in just the last 90 days. You are getting exactly what you say you want and yet refuse to see how your "solution" has led to the current explosion of corporate welfare and cronyism, they very things you claim can only be reduced through greater regulation.
No company or CEO wants MORE regulations- that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard! I mean, seriously, just think about what you're saying!
Again, you have made a demonstrably false statement. Here's just one example:
Wal-Mart backs hike to minimum wage

Why would Wal-Mart support raising the min wage? Because they already paid well above what the rate hike would be while their smaller competitors did not. Raising the min wage was good for Wal-Mart because that government mandate caused some of Wal-Mart's smaller competitors to go out of business and, therefore, forced them out of the market.

Big Business loves regulation because it stifles much of the competition by giving larger firms an "unfair" advantage.
Capitalism, like any system, has strong and weak points, and the weak points of capitalism is that, left unchecked, it encourages people to cut corners and prioritize the bottom line, which is NOT in society's best interest.
Two things here... First... Eliminating regulations would still leave the Rule Of Law, therefore no company would be "unchecked". Putting it in the simplest of terms, what you describe as "Capitalism" - isn't. You're describing a Black Market while incorrectly referring to it as "Capitalism" and thereby creating a strawman that you then argue against. None of us are advocating for a Black Market (economic anarchy). We advocate for a Free Market - Free of government regulations and coercion, kept 'in check' by the rule of law.

Second... The power to regulate the economy is the power to grant political favors. That is, the power to pick winners and losers, the power to offer corporate welfare and bailouts etc., all the things you're complaining about. None of which are in "society's" best interest. You're prescription to solve the problem, more government regulation, only gives corporations more incentive to lobby politicians in order to gain ever greater amounts of political favor.

Now, if we eliminate government's power to grant subsidies and exert control over the economy by erecting a separation of economy and state, corporations would have no reason to lobby for political favor, since no favors exist. No more bailouts, no more subsidies, no more corporate welfare of any kind.
So the only way for capitalism to work is to keep it in check, like I just explained, with labor laws, environmental laws, you name it. Remove them and we go backwards in time to dark, embarrassing places in our nation's history.
Rule of Law... Here's the rule: No individual or group may violate the rights of any other individual or group.

Read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" if you're confused, as a basic example.

The Jungle is a 1906 novel written by American journalist, socialist, and politician Upton Sinclair.​

If you really want to argue in favor of Socialism, I would be happy to argue the morality of Socialism vs. that of Capitalism.
 
I did watch the videos you posted. The first two anyway. The problem here is that we need to define "regulations" because it means a lot of different things at a lot of different scales. I am not advocating more government regulations in the way you are referring. In other words, I completely agree that there is a ton of excess bureaucracy wasting time and money all over the place. I don't think we need more and more rules in all aspects of life, I don't think I need to jump through hoops to build a shed on my lawn, and if my local farmer wants to sell me something they grew they should be able to do that without the FDA stepping in and forcing them to comply in a hundred pointless ways so that we all end up paying more just to please local governments. So in that way, I'm with that point of view.

On the other hand, none of what you said addresses the kind of deregulation I have been talking about. Those 8,000 new regulations each year really have nothing to do with Mr. Greenspan's ideological crusade to convince America that the best economic strategy in the 1990's was to leave Wall Street alone, because it would self-regulate. This popular neoconservative philosophy goes back to the Chicago School of Economics, which you are probably familiar with, and Milton Friedman's assertion that no government intervention is desirable for an economy to thrive. Because the U.S. (back then) was not amicable to such an extreme philosophy, the Chicago boys had to test their theories in other countries such as Chile, regrettably partnering with crazed dictators like Pinochet who was given the chance to start his economy carte blanche. In came a bunch of free-market American Theorists and down went the Chilean economy into unheard-of levels of poverty. Fast forward to Reagan who started dismantling all these safety checkpoints, bring in Greenspan to trumpet this point of view and get Clinton to claim that the old laws like Glass-Steagall were no longer relevant, and you basically have a perfect foundation for what became the Derivatives Market and the disaster that followed. For all the free-market talk, it really boiled down to a small group of people twisting the rules to their favor.

Now, what you're saying about cronyism and over-regulation is true, in that arena of life. But that's got nothing to do with what I just described, which is a much bigger-picture issue that favors a small but rich minority with lots of government connections. We're talking about two different things, but your ideological bias prevents you from seeing that the issue isn't either/or, it's situational. In a certain time and place, having a Monarchy might be the best solution to the problem- and, for a certain period of time, it was. If you have a great and honorable king, you can get a lot more good things accomplished than with 100 senators all arguing back and forth. But that doesn't mean Monarchies are the ideal, or morally superior. Same with capitalism. Upton Sinclair wrote a good book, one that detailed facts and spoke truth. Labeling him a socialist doesn't really mean anything, as anyone who expresses a point of view that is compassionate to people being exploited will be called a socialist by free-market capitalists. Socialism isn't morally inferior or superior to capitalism- it's a human invention, a tool, like a hammer, designed to solve problems. Hammers are great for driving nails, but they make terrible pens. If you need to write something, don't go with a hammer. That doesn't mean pens are morally superior to hammers. I have met and befriended people from former-communist eastern block countries who preferred communism to what they have now because it worked better in many ways. I also have good friends who fled that same scene and love being in the U.S. and never want to go back. Both had valid arguments, because they were both focused on different aspects of the same beast.

One more point- I hate the concept of subsidies too, but if you start to dig deeper, you realize there are different kinds of subsidies. One is the kind that gives farmers money for each bushel of corn, which makes no sense. It's a neverending corn welfare system that encourages you to keep playing the game because Uncle Sam is paying you too. Then there are subsidies that are assistance to people starting out- things like tax breaks on people buying solar panels, or money given for agricultural research to develop better farming methods. Yes, these are subsidies, yes, you can say government is "granting favors" I guess, but the difference is these are temporary investments by the government which allow people to lay a foundation that then becomes self-sufficient and ultimately boosts the economy. This is why Germany is doing so much better than everyone else, because their government got their head out of their ass years ago and realized that if they encouraged economic development in a certain direction, it would create a healthy economy based on logical and sound sustainable industries at a time when old methods are dying out. There are lots of examples of governments doing wise, logical things and thinking long-term for the benefit of their country... it's just that, sadly, our government is full of corrupt, short-term thinking people, and as long as you have that, no system you attempt is going to work. Arguing for such a black-and-white ideological sweep is not wise, because you'll eliminate as many good things as you will bad ones. Life isn't that black-and-white and you have to examine each situation for what it is- no one ideology is going to save everything.
 
I did watch the videos you posted. The first two anyway. The problem here is that we need to define "regulations" because it means a lot of different things at a lot of different scales. I am not advocating more government regulations in the way you are referring. In other words, I completely agree that there is a ton of excess bureaucracy wasting time and money all over the place. I don't think we need more and more rules in all aspects of life, I don't think I need to jump through hoops to build a shed on my lawn, and if my local farmer wants to sell me something they grew they should be able to do that without the FDA stepping in and forcing them to comply in a hundred pointless ways so that we all end up paying more just to please local governments. So in that way, I'm with that point of view.

On the other hand, none of what you said addresses the kind of deregulation I have been talking about. Those 8,000 new regulations each year really have nothing to do with Mr. Greenspan's ideological crusade to convince America that the best economic strategy in the 1990's was to leave Wall Street alone, because it would self-regulate. This popular neoconservative philosophy goes back to the Chicago School of Economics, which you are probably familiar with, and Milton Friedman's assertion that no government intervention is desirable for an economy to thrive. Because the U.S. (back then) was not amicable to such an extreme philosophy, the Chicago boys had to test their theories in other countries such as Chile, regrettably partnering with crazed dictators like Pinochet who was given the chance to start his economy carte blanche. In came a bunch of free-market American Theorists and down went the Chilean economy into unheard-of levels of poverty. Fast forward to Reagan who started dismantling all these safety checkpoints, bring in Greenspan to trumpet this point of view and get Clinton to claim that the old laws like Glass-Steagall were no longer relevant, and you basically have a perfect foundation for what became the Derivatives Market and the disaster that followed. For all the free-market talk, it really boiled down to a small group of people twisting the rules to their favor.

Now, what you're saying about cronyism and over-regulation is true, in that arena of life. But that's got nothing to do with what I just described, which is a much bigger-picture issue that favors a small but rich minority with lots of government connections. We're talking about two different things, but your ideological bias prevents you from seeing that the issue isn't either/or, it's situational. In a certain time and place, having a Monarchy might be the best solution to the problem- and, for a certain period of time, it was. If you have a great and honorable king, you can get a lot more good things accomplished than with 100 senators all arguing back and forth. But that doesn't mean Monarchies are the ideal, or morally superior. Same with capitalism. Upton Sinclair wrote a good book, one that detailed facts and spoke truth. Labeling him a socialist doesn't really mean anything, as anyone who expresses a point of view that is compassionate to people being exploited will be called a socialist by free-market capitalists. Socialism isn't morally inferior or superior to capitalism- it's a human invention, a tool, like a hammer, designed to solve problems. Hammers are great for driving nails, but they make terrible pens. If you need to write something, don't go with a hammer. That doesn't mean pens are morally superior to hammers. I have met and befriended people from former-communist eastern block countries who preferred communism to what they have now because it worked better in many ways. I also have good friends who fled that same scene and love being in the U.S. and never want to go back. Both had valid arguments, because they were both focused on different aspects of the same beast.

One more point- I hate the concept of subsidies too, but if you start to dig deeper, you realize there are different kinds of subsidies. One is the kind that gives farmers money for each bushel of corn, which makes no sense. It's a neverending corn welfare system that encourages you to keep playing the game because Uncle Sam is paying you too. Then there are subsidies that are assistance to people starting out- things like tax breaks on people buying solar panels, or money given for agricultural research to develop better farming methods. Yes, these are subsidies, yes, you can say government is "granting favors" I guess, but the difference is these are temporary investments by the government which allow people to lay a foundation that then becomes self-sufficient and ultimately boosts the economy. This is why Germany is doing so much better than everyone else, because their government got their head out of their ass years ago and realized that if they encouraged economic development in a certain direction, it would create a healthy economy based on logical and sound sustainable industries at a time when old methods are dying out. There are lots of examples of governments doing wise, logical things and thinking long-term for the benefit of their country... it's just that, sadly, our government is full of corrupt, short-term thinking people, and as long as you have that, no system you attempt is going to work. Arguing for such a black-and-white ideological sweep is not wise, because you'll eliminate as many good things as you will bad ones. Life isn't that black-and-white and you have to examine each situation for what it is- no one ideology is going to save everything.

I fear we are making no progress. At least we have consensus on corruption in government and the big corporations are too powerful.

No one is talking about regulations on backyard sheds. Please stop with the deflection tactics.

Again you cite DEREGULATION of the financial sector. The financial sector is MORE REGULATED TODAY than ever before. To cite Greenspan, last Fed Chairman in 2006, is silly and more deflection. And citing Chile and Freedman from decades ago, is really asinine. By the way, you might do a bit of research on Chile. Their economy has been doing very well....thanks to the implementation of free market principles.

You really think the US operated a free market capitalist economy the last 20 years. Nothing could be further from the truth.

To believe the incompetent and corrupt Federal Government can develop and implement EFFECTIVE regulations of the private sector, only proves you have failed to learn from history.

Ever heard of Dodd-Frank? It is a little more recent than General Pinochet....:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: It regulates the financial sector EXTENSIVELY....and it was signed into law by BO in 2010. So, tell me again about deregulation of the financial sector????:confused::confused::confused: This NEW law hampers competition benefiting the big banks, while damaging all the other banks. This from the left wing Economist........848 pages of REGULATIONS.....and you claim the gov is DEREGULATING...o_Oo_Oo_O Do you get your information from MSLSD?

The law that set up America's banking system in 1864 ran to 29 pages; the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 went to 32 pages; the Banking Act that transformed American finance after the Wall Street Crash, commonly known as the Glass-Steagall act, spread out to 37 pages. Dodd-Frank is 848 pages long. Voracious Chinese officials, who pay close attention to regulatory developments elsewhere, have remarked that the mammoth law, let alone its appended rules, seems to have been fully read by no one outside Beijing (your correspondent is a tired-eyed exception to this rule). And the size is only the beginning. The scope and structure of Dodd-Frank are fundamentally different to those of its precursor laws, notes Jonathan Macey of Yale Law School: “Laws classically provide people with rules. Dodd-Frank is not directed at people. It is an outline directed at bureaucrats and it instructs them to make still more regulations and to create more bureaucracies.” Like the Hydra of Greek myth, Dodd-Frank can grow new heads as needed.
http://www.economist.com/node/21547784
 
Socialism isn't morally inferior or superior to capitalism- it's a human invention, a tool, like a hammer, designed to solve problems.

Moral relativism - nobody is objectively right or wrong; and normative moral relativism holds that because nobody is right or wrong, we ought to tolerate the behavior of others even when we disagree about the morality of it.​
Is Slavery moral, immoral, or amoral? Your answer would have to be amoral if you wish to argue that Socialism is also amoral. To admit that slavery is immoral, is to admit that Socialism is also immoral. Any system that utilizes forced, uncompensated labor to benefit some at the expense of others is immoral.

If you reject the label of Socialism in regards to the economic system you advocate, then pick whatever label you wish because what you're advocating for is forced economic collectivism, and that, in all its forms and to whatever degrees, is slavery.
 
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Until you guys have some kind of actual proof that what I'm saying is patently untrue, just saying it over and over doesn't make it correct. Our society has gotten more and more legalistic in every possible way, so comparing the number of pages now to the number of pages in the 1930's is ridiculous because in 1930, 95% of the crap we have to deal with today didn't exist. In the meantime, in reality, Wall Street has more freedom and power today to speculate and set up their unethical schemes than it did 20, 30 years ago- regardless of whatever regulations you keep seeing appear. Multinationals have more power to set up shop and exploit people and natural resources than ever before- now, not even nations are sovereign. Companies hold the cards, not countries, and there are plenty countries in huge debt because of shitty deals they had to accept due to economic circumstances forced upon them by the bigger nations and the companies that came out of them. Do a little reading on England and its Banana Republics, if you're curious... or the Opium Wars... or pretty much all of history. The U.S. Constitution has a lot of wonderful ideas but it has been eroded over the years. Every so often, the rich step too far overboard, too many common people suffer, and the government realizes it's going to have a revolution on their hands if they don't do something about it, so they do- and for a time, things get a little more stable. Then it starts again. We are in one of those times now. If Dodd-Frank was actually limiting the people who run Washington in any significant way, it wouldn't have passed. Again, whatever terms you want to use is fine with me- the result is that today, corporations have the ability to do more than they used to without having to answer for their actions as much as they used to. Call that over-regulation or de-regulation, the bottom line is companies have less government interference over their actions.

As to bringing slavery into the argument, if you really want to go there, then you have to admit that capitalism is slavery in a different name. The age-old strategy is the same- those who have will always try to find ways to exploit those who don't have. You can physically force them do do it like in the old days, or you can economically force them to do it like in the new days. Either way, it's slavery. All the people working for shanty-town factory-towns in 3rd world countries getting paid 20 cents a day are slaves, even though, technically, they are "free". And, to a more subtle extent, television and media creates a different kind of a slave- one that willingly wants to keep its shackles. This is the most clever permutation of slavery yet, because no one is going to start a revolt as long as they are comfortable. So we've removed "slavery" from this country and hidden it in other coutries behind a lot of hypocritical new labels, but don't kid yourself- we live our nice middle-class lives because there are people right now getting screwed over. Many, many people, children, parents, you name it. If they didn't exist, we wouldn't have the luxury of arguing with each other right now.

Socialism in it's spirit is the desire to see everyone get a fair share of our collective wealth; it is the acknowledgement that no man is an island, and that, no matter how self-made you think you are, the reality is your success actually came about with the help of others in many ways you may never be aware of. It seeks to spread the rewards of that success among everyone, who is working together for a better future. That certainly sounds more moral than the philosophies I've heard come out of mouths of libertarians I know (and I'm not criticizing libertarianism as a concept. My point is that any system can be twisted for bad in the hands of the right people.) I am not a socialist- but I see the good aspects of it, just like I see the good aspects of capitalism. The only truly moral system I can see is no system at all, where each man is free to fully decide for himself what he wants to do. The minute you impose law, freedom is already compromised, so if you're arguing that socialism forces people to do things, so does every system we've ever invented.

If a group of people freely choose to live in a society where the wealth is shared, and set up a regulating body to take care of the logistics, you're telling me that's immoral? The problem is, just like with capitalism, the examples of socialist governments in history are not as idealistic- and, just like with capitalism, end up just being tools for persecution and abuse. But in that regard, we're not any less guilty, or more moral. We have a lot to be ashamed of in terms of our actions, and pleading ignorance isn't really an excuse.

I'm not a moral relativist at all- I simply realize that a man-made invention is just that- man-made. Morality transcends that. No matter what system of government you choose, the moral rules will be the same- and if they are followed, that system will work, because the people running it are honorable. Your belief that free market capitalism will save the day is what's naive around here, even though it sounds really nice in theory.
 
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