The "Why We're In Iraq" Checklist

[Sadistic Savior]

I agree. Their definition of torture is unreasonably broad, as well as being demeaning to real torture victims.

 

[9sublime]

I know that Guantanamo bay is not real tortue, but its stilll highly illegal. Being held without trial is one of the worst violations and it goes against everything the consitution stands for, but as these people are outside the constitution the conservatives don't care. Even though Christianity teaches a message of treating others how you in turn would like to be treated, as well as various others that are ignored by the right.

The places where torture by the CIA (or CIA associates/people hired by the CIA) is not in somewhere like Guantanmo, but somewhere much more secret and remote.

If waterboarding is a method they publicly admit to using, then what they don't let the media know/tell people or get foreign agencies to do must be far worse.

 

[Dave]

I know that Guantanamo bay is not real tortue, but its stilll highly illegal. Being held without trial is one of the worst violations and it goes against everything the consitution stands for, but as these people are outside the constitution the conservatives don't care. Even though Christianity teaches a message of treating others how you in turn would like to be treated, as well as various others that are ignored by the right.

The places where torture by the CIA (or CIA associates/people hired by the CIA) is not in somewhere like Guantanmo, but somewhere much more secret and remote.

If waterboarding is a method they publicly admit to using, then what they don't let the media know/tell people or get foreign agencies to do must be far worse.

I've discussed this whole issue of trials on here before, but to recap, this is not a violation of anyone's rights. The people we are fighting in Iraq don't fit into any of the clear definitions made out when the Geneva Convention was written. They never were legitimate soldiers, so that doesn't make them POW's. They aren't civilians, so a civilian trial doesn't fit the situation. They are something in between the two. They need to be removed from the battlefield, but there really isn't anything to charge them with, so a trial doesn't fit the situation.

Again, like I've said on this board before, during my time in the military I got to meet a ton of military interrogators. They are certainly not taught to violate the Geneva Convention. What the public thinks our interrogators do is a gross misconception of what is really being taught. I can't speak for the CIA, but I have no problem with waterboarding, and if that is what is actually going on I say more power to them. If you have any proof that any actual "torture" is going on, please provide it.

 

[9sublime]

Well you can find thousands of articles about the Boeing case etc. where the CIA fly suspects to countries where torture is known to be done by the government.

It doesn't matter wether they are civillians or soldiers, they still need a trial. If they are proper terrorists, they don't really deserve one, but they should still get one because once they are denied one the government will only build upon it.

 

[Sadistic Savior]

I know that Guantanamo bay is not real tortue, but its stilll highly illegal.

I do not recognize foreign law anyway. So if we are violating it, that can only be a good thing. Ideally, I would like to see us withdraw from it alltogether.

Being held without trial is one of the worst violations and it goes against everything the consitution stands for

The Constitution applies to US citizens. Not to foreign nationals.

as these people are outside the constitution the conservatives don't care

Correct. Both legally and morally, they are not entitled to the same rights as US citizens.

Even though Christianity teaches a message of treating others how you in turn would like to be treated, as well as various others that are ignored by the right.

I am a gay atheist. The Bible means nothing to me personally.

If waterboarding is a method they publicly admit to using, then what they don't let the media know/tell people or get foreign agencies to do must be far worse.

Do you have any actual evidence or is this simply an assumption you are making?

You want to apply "innocent until proven guilty" to the prisoners suspected of terrorism, but not to the CIA? Sounds a bit inconsistent dont you think?

It doesn't matter wether they are civillians or soldiers, they still need a trial.

I disagree. Enemy soldiers do not require a trial IMO.

If they are proper terrorists, they don't really deserve one, but they should still get one because once they are denied one the government will only build upon it.

I am willing to take that risk.

 

[Dave]

Well you can find thousands of articles about the Boeing case etc. where the CIA fly suspects to countries where torture is known to be done by the government.

It doesn't matter wether they are civillians or soldiers, they still need a trial. If they are proper terrorists, they don't really deserve one, but they should still get one because once they are denied one the government will only build upon it.

Soldier's don't get trials. They never have unless its some war crimes trial under international law. If you think of them as soldiers, then how could you try German soldier's captured in WWII? You can't because there is nothing to charge a soldier with. You simply hold them until the fighting is over in order to get them off the battlefield, or do a prisoner exchange. But like I said, they aren't soldiers. They aren't civilians either. There is no classification for what insurgents are. There is no legal document that says what their rights are. You can't violate human rights if there is nothing that says what these rights are.

As for the CIA flights, all of the documents I've seen say that the CIA approved 6 methods of interrogation. The worst of which was slapping and waterboarding. None of these documents could be verified, but even if they were authentic, its hardly what I would consider torture.

 

[9sublime]

I do not recognize foreign law anyway. So if we are violating it, that can only be a good thing. Ideally, I would like to see us withdraw from it alltogether.

You are very, very arrogant then. Imagine you are in a country and they arrest you and torture you, and you try and complain, and they say that they don't recognize foreign law.


The Constitution applies to US citizens. Not to foreign nationals.

Yes, but it should really shouldn't it, if it applies to you. Its only fair and in the spirit of America.

Correct. Both legally and morally, they are not entitled to the same rights as US citizens.

Morally? You really are a cruel person.

I am a gay atheist. The Bible means nothing to me personally.

I hate organized religion. But America follows Christianity in its government, and if it forces it upon their citizens, they should at least follow the positive teaching accordingly.
Do you have any actual evidence or is this simply an assumption you are making?

You want to apply "innocent until proven guilty" to the prisoners suspected of terrorism, but not to the CIA? Sounds a bit inconsistent dont you think?

No, because the CIA are the government, and should always be trusted as guilty in todays world. If you don't believe the CIA does things behind your peoples backs, you are naive.

I disagree. Enemy soldiers do not require a trial IMO.

I disagree, they should. You would expect your troops to have a trial too.

Look at the Boeing cases for evidence of the CIA taking people abroad for torture.

 

[Sadistic Savior]

You are very, very arrogant then.

Oh boy am I.

I am likely the most unapologetically arrogant neocon you are ever going to meet.

Imagine you are in a country and they arrest you and torture you, and you try and complain, and they say that they don't recognize foreign law.

I should have clarified; I was speaking of so-called "international law"...not the domestic laws of other democracies.

I do not recognize our Constitution as subordinate to any other law.

Morally? You really are a cruel person.

I am not saying they should be enslaved or anything. I am not saying our troops should not act morally. I am saying they should not be entitled to due process. They should not be permitted to exploit technicallities in the law.

America follows Christianity in its government, and if it forces it upon their citizens

I do not feel that religion is forced on me. I have the option not to worship. I have the freedom to criticize the church openly. I even have the freedom to engage in acts specifically punishable by death in the the Bible.

That would not be true if Christianity were being forced upon me.

No, because the CIA are the government, and should always be trusted as guilty in todays world.

I disagree that the government is guilty by default.

Your position seems to be that if you accuse the government of something, we should automatically assume your accusation is correct unless the government can disprove it. That is absurd IMO.

If you don't believe the CIA does things behind your peoples backs, you are naive.

They may or may not be. But I am unwilling to simply take your word for it. Sorry.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

Oh boy am I.

I am likely the most unapologetically arrogant neocon you are ever going to meet.

You're also a complete and total ***** who has convinced himself he's a genius. LOL

I've dealt with this fraud before folks. If you thought palerider was on crack, just wait til you get a load of this Neocon nutcase.

palerider might not like the addition too much when he realizes Sadistic Savior is a gay Republican...

 

[top gun]

Some of the posts on this thread are extremely disturbing.

I read a person who doesn't believe that The United States of America should abide by the rules set forth in the Geneva Convention. WOW! The thing that sets us apart from the other side is our ability to be above torture. Granted the terrorist are not going to stop because we do but that completely misses the entire point.

When we officially or by our publicized acts throw out things like the rules set forth in the Geneva Convention we are saying to every government from then on... You may now torture our soldiers and civilians if you (only you) deem them as "enemy combatants". Be careful what you throw out there my friends because other countries are watching. I seriously doubt when Russia of China or any country that we cannot easily make demands on does this back at us you will still say... throw it out.

I read that same person saying things like... they don't know that the government sometimes misleads it citizens during war time. That he'll take the word of the CIA that they only act appropriately.

This is some very scary stuff my friends. Vietnam is a great and highly publicized example of the government lying about how a war was going... have you not listened to the Nixon/Kissinger tapes! And the events in Iraq aren't even a secret. It's a Civil War between the Shiite & the Sunni with some insurgents thrown in on the side. And we will NEVER stabilize it. We can run it like a prison camp in certain sections but eventually we will leave and they will create their own destiny.

As far as the CIA. We need the CIA. But to say that they play by any honest set of rules is ridiculous. They're called SPOOKS for Christ sake! I implore everyone to be patriotic but NEVER just take what you are being told as the absolute truth by any administration... especially the current one!

 

[Sadistic Savior]

You're also a complete and total ***** who has convinced himself he's a genius. LOL

I've dealt with this fraud before folks. If you thought palerider was on crack, just wait til you get a load of this Neocon nutcase.

I had no idea I intimidated you enough to merit a disclaimer. I guess I'm flattered that you feel so threatened by my posts.

When we officially or by our publicized acts throw out things like the rules set forth in the Geneva Convention we are saying to every government from then on... You may now torture our soldiers and civilians if you (only you) deem them as "enemy combatants".

An empty threat, since they will do so anyway. Whether we adhere to the Geneva Convention rules or not.

Be careful what you throw out there my friends because other countries are watching. I seriously doubt when Russia of China or any country that we cannot easily make demands on does this back at us you will still say... throw it out.

Watch me.

It is pointless to abide by rules that cannot be enforced.

This is some very scary stuff my friends.

Assuming that accusations are true by default is more disturbing.

This is some very scary stuff my friends. Vietnam is a great and highly publicized example of the government lying about how a war was going... have you not listened to the Nixon/Kissinger tapes! And the events in Iraq aren't even a secret.

The problem with that is, where does it stop? What accusation is too ridiculius to believe?

As far as the CIA. We need the CIA.

As a catch-all scapegoat apparently.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

Some of the posts on this thread are extremely disturbing.

Tell me about it...

This is some very scary stuff my friends. Vietnam is a great and highly publicized example of the government lying about how a war was going... have you not listened to the Nixon/Kissinger tapes!

Exactly, check out my post at the bottom of the page here:

https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=882&page=4

 

[Truth-Bringer]

I had no idea I intimidated you enough to merit a disclaimer. I guess I'm flattered that you feel so threatened by my posts.

Oh, I'm not threatened at all, Captain Nutcase. You're a sophist who relies solely on obfuscation and deception. I'm simply warning people who don't know you as well as I do, that you not only drink the Kool-Aid, but you take it intravenously as well.

 

[Sadistic Savior]

Oh, I'm not threatened at all, Captain Nutcase.

Are you sure? This is the second post I have seen from you complaining about me in the last five minutes. Do you do that for everyone? heh heh

I'm simply warning people who don't know you as well as I do

If it is so obvious, wont they see it for themselves?

 

[9sublime]

You said on the 2nd page you were willing to take the risk of allowing the government to slowly steal your freedoms by putting in place more and more terror laws. Can't you see, these terror laws are not just for abroad, they are for your homeland. They're to restrict you and what you do so that the government can have an easy ride when it comes to disobedient citizens in the future.

By the way, I hate conspiracy theories, they are always so ridiculous in general. However, two I do believe in is that

1. The CIA is commiting deeds against what America stands for and what the peaceful public would want, and it is sinking to the level of the terrorists in terms of torture.

2. Slowly but surely, we are having our freedoms taken away from us, for the greater good. Thats not even a conspiracy, thats fact. The question is, how far will they take it, how soon will we be in a 1984-style world? What we need is for the world to run out of oil and pull everything back three or four decades to a time when we had a bit more freedom.