The Bible; The Unabridged-Version

[Mare Tranquillity]

Well, YOU can make it say whatever you want it to say. But I think language is such that there is a limit to what a thing can actually mean.

Really? The limits of language didn't stop the Inquisition from burning and tearing people and animals to pieces. It didn't stop the Crusades, it didn't stop a million women from being burned at the stake, it didn't save Joan of Arc from being burned at the stake, it didn't stop the enslavement of black people, it didn't stop women from being treated as 2nd class citizens for centuries... can you think of one abuse that the language limit prevented? I can't. Look at all the weird stuff people manage to attribute to the words in the Bible.

Even the clearest statements carry no weight. LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF. That's only 4 words, but Christians have managed to make that have no meaning when it comes to hurting those they have Judged to be "less than".

Let's note here that I presented a question to you and Nums and Andy which none of you has addressed. Why is that?

 

[PLC1]

I am pretty sure all of those are OT themes.

In fact my bible has this tricky tendency to have a little foot note next to every sentence that tells me where in the OT I can find a NT theme. And you know I cant remember ever seeing a NT theme that the editors did not refer to an similar OT theme.

Lev 19:18 love neighbor as self
love enemies - David's treatment of Saul
judging harshly - Oh im out of time

How can that possibly be reconciled with the doctrine of an eye for an eye, stoning adulterers, and so forth? the OT has some pretty draconian punishments for people who don't do what someone says they're supposed to do. You have read Leviticus, I assume. there are some really strange admonitions in that book, don't you agree?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

And there is nothing inconsistent about expecting certain standards of behavior both from yourself and others.

Does that mean that you have the right to use force to make others obey what you consider to be "certain" standards? What about their free-will? I know, you'll bring up murder here, but we're not talking about people who abrogate the free-will of others by using violence. We're discussing why, despite the LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF commandment by Jesus, that you feel it acceptable to punish gay people who are not harming anyone. Why can't you wait for God to Judge them and punish them? Why do YOU ignore Jesus while claiming to be a Christian?

There is a huge difference between disagreeing with the gay agenda and condemning the people themselves. feel free to show where each of us has actually disapproved of the gay people themselves rather than disapproved of their actions or agenda.

If someone makes up a lie about you, should you be punished for what you are accused of? Gay people want equality under the law. Who are you to Judge their actions? If gay people harm others, then they should come under the hand of the law, but denying them equality for NO REASON is what's being done. I object to many of the Christians actions, but I have never tried to take from them what I claim for my own. You do that very thing, how do you justify it in the face of Jesus' two most important commandments?

The Christians who would marry polygamers seem to be following Jesus' second commandment since marriage is one of the most treasured things two people can have and if you love someone as yourself how can you deny them what you treasure so highly? The only way you can do that is to ignore Jesus very clear statement and willfully place the Biblical condemnation of polygamers ABOVE the importance of Jesus' commandment to love others as yourself.

Some Christians still practice polygamy, I am not in a position to say anything about their actions. I'm not like you, I don't need to regulate the lives of others who are harming no one. Group marriage has a long and successful history in the human race. Gay people aren't asking for polygamy, they want what you already have.

As near as I can tell not a single person here has argued that marriage should be between a man and a woman because the bible says so and actually have made arguments based on universal human rights or gender differences or biology or the needs of raising children. But maybe I am wrong - maybe a single person HAS made that claim.

Andy made that argument on this page of this thread. All the arguments against gay marriage have been religiously based. The research that has been done on the millions of children who have been raised in gay households around the world show that there is no harm to the children. Gender differences are irrelevant, marriage is about love and committment. You are scrambling for an argument because you know that there isn't one.

And I am much much more sure that no one has said they think marriage should be between a man and a woman because they want to punish gay people - that is just nuts.

Of course very few people would say that, but what they do say is that gays are evil and an abomination, some people call for their deaths. Seems pretty punishing if you are on the receiving end. Also there is the little fact that except for punishment there isn't any reason to deny them marriage equality.

And you are wrong about the meaning of judging:

"God judges in the temporal arena, and the eternal. In this life God will judge a person's actions, but always (except when the person has irrevocably rejected Him) holds out the chance for turning back and repenting. Only on the Last Day, at the great white throne judgment will God pronounce eternal judgment on a person, forever determining his or her destinies. From this judgment, there is no appeal or second chance.

The Christian, on the other hand, is never given the right or the responsibility of eternally judging anyone (unless they have clearly rejected Christ permanently). Christians cannot correctly weigh action, motives, opportunities, nor know all things about any individual: God alone is capable to do so.

I agree with what you said, so what gives Christians the right to punish? Gays don't hurt anybody any more than any other group, in fact gays tend to be more peaceful that heteros--when was the last time you heard of a gang of gays going around beating up heterosexuals?

However, Christians are to make decisions (appraisals, discernments, and even take corrective actions). But even judging in this aspect is intended to be remedial, and leaves the door open to the person for repentance and reconciliation. Any judging on the part of a Christian which does not, is a false aspect of Christian judgment. We are called upon to ''judge righteous judgment'' (John 7:24) and failure to do so is to be negligent in a crucial aspect of our Christian calling."
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j14.html

Where does it say that you can punish, disenfranchise, or kill gay people? You may not agree with gays, you may not like them, but you do not have any God-given permission to take their rights away nor to punish them nor deny them the legal standing that you claim for your own.

Regarding the passage you quoted: "judge not" here is a commentary:http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Matt/Do-Not-Judge-Others
True that. But we can talk with them about what is best and it might not always be the gay lifestyle.

If you want to "talk" about homosexuality I'm good with that, talking is all I do about the Christian lifestyle. My problem with you folks is when you pass laws to punish. I don't punish you on the basis of my religious beliefs, why do you think you have the right to punish me?

 

[Andy]

If you cannot see the difference between the two kinds of statements, then you are pretty dim.

I never claimed to be bright.

So you have actually managed to move beyond the racist views held by the Christian religion for hundreds of years. Kudos to you. Have you as well moved beyond seeing mentally ill people as being possessed by demons, beyond seeing women as chattel, beyond seeing alcoholism as "moral turpitude", beyond the Biblical prohibition against interfaith marriages, beyond the Church's prohibition against inter-racial marriages? Great, if you have. Now it's time to move past the death sentence and abomination beliefs against gay people.

I have had gay friends before. But I'll never support same sex-marriage. That simply won't happen. Sorry to disappoint. I'll never go against what G-d's word says.

Why can't you tell the difference between a problem with the Bible and a problem with God? If I am anti-Christian it is only in the definition. I think the teachings of Jesus are good, but my experience with Christians shows little Christ in the practice of Christianity today. You and Nums are good examples of this, you feel completely justified in speaking for God based only on your interpretation of the Bible and if that wasn't enough you actively persecute the people you judge to be not following YOUR understanding of an old book. You ignore Jesus' commandment to LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF and help pass laws that punish the people you have judged.

Because the Bible is G-d's very word. If it's wrong, then there is nothing to have faith in. I'm not going to just sit and "make up" G-d to be whatever I want him to be, so that I can do whatever I want to do. Granted that will make life a ton easier. I could just sleep around with whatever woman I could sucker into bed. I could cheat and steal from people with the only worry being caught. I could treat people like garbage, use and abuse others, and generally do whatever made me happy no matter how it hurt others. And at the same time pretend that my (g)od was fine with it, so long as I... who knows, said a prayer a day? Walked across hot coals? Maybe even did nothing. He's my invented (g)od so I can assume he follows whatever rules I made up.

I mean if the Bible isn't true, and I assume the Qur'an isn't since you'd be stoned to death. I suppose Buddhism isn't since one of the main rules is to not engage in unlawful sexual act. Thus if we made it illegal, as it was, you should not do it.

So since none of the other religions are directly from G-d, and the Bible isn't either... then what are we left with? Our own invented (g)od.

You claim Jesus is ok.
So when Jesus being asked a question regarding marriage says:
""Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two but one flesh."

Which clearly indicates that G-d created them "male and female" specifically, and not "Male and male" or "Female and Female", and further, it's also a tad bit obvious how our gender related parts fit.... How do you view this? It only applies to everyone else? It might have been the way he wanted it, but that was then and this is now? What part of this does not compute?

Further, when I read that 2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Or 1 Timothy 1:8-11

But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

I suppose I'm just "interpreting" that incorrectly? Or maybe I am simply reading what is there, and supporting G-d's word as I should.

There is nothing to prove your statement? How is it that you can justify ignoring what Jesus told you and instead using less important passages in the Bible as a weapon against others?

Thessalonians 2:13

For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

John 10:30-33

"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Seems conclusive to me.

Jesus never condemned gay people. If hating gays and punishing them was part of what Jesus saw as your role, then I'm sure He'd have mentioned it. You don't own marriage, marriage is used in almost all cultures, all religions, even non-religious people marry, the Catholic church used to marry people. Marriage in our country is a legal contract and should not be controlled by religious tenets of any religion since as a legal contract it provides legal rights and responsibilities.

No, I don't own marriage. G-d does. I am merely supporting his word.

I don't 'hate' gays. I pray for them. I've had friends who were gay.
There is love and help for them to. But not, love and help to stay in their life, but help to escape it.
Freedom From Homosexuality and the Gay "Christian" Deception

So you are cherry-picking what to obey in the Bible just like you accused me of doing in the first part this post. Why do you get to decide what's "gospel" and I don't?

I have cherry picked nothing. You are viewing the Bible without guidance from the holy spirit, and can not understand the things written, because you have already chosen and admitted that you don't believe it. G-d does not give divine understanding to those who refuse him.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1 Cor. 2:14

Short of the holy spirit, it is impossible for a non-believer to understand.

Once again, you are calling me a liar with no a shred of proof, the things I cited are in the Bible--why do you get to decide that they don't apply to you?

Did I say lies? I said they were twists, because they are. You may not be doing so intentionally because you are not a believer. I have not made the choice of what applies to me and what does not. G-d made those decisions. If He had chosen otherwise, I would be following them. I didn't write the book... I'm just following it. If Paul says something in Leviticus doesn't apply to me, then I understand that what is in Leviticus doesn't apply to me.

It is the same as our tax code which says everyone has to pay into social security, but then a thousand pages later, says Clergy are exempt from social security if they chose. The Clergy didn't simply chose what didn't apply to them, the writer of the tax laws did. Similarly I didn't write the Bible, so I am not the one who says I'm exempt.

Are you aware of two different kinds of "judgment"? If I speak for me and my experiences, then I am "judging", but when someone speaks for God, then that is an entirely different thing, that is Judgment, and it is the very thing that Jesus forbade you to do. I never speak for God, you continually claim to be speaking for God.

I am simply saying what G-d has said. Further, I am not "judging", because I'm not the judge. G-d is the judge. You are attacking the messenger, when I didn't write the message.

I know you only by what you have written, you claim to speak for God, you post on a public site who is and isn't a Christian, and you are happy and proud to have helped to persecute people...

I am happy and proud to have supported G-ds word. You can never take that from me because I know what the Bible says. Nothing will change that. Yes, actually I can say that because I have prayed for and been friends with gay people. That has helped them gain eternity. That's far better than any Earthly thing.

Am I exempt? What have I done to Christians that hurts any of them? What laws have I helped pass that take rights from them that I continue to have? I can, and have, given concrete examples of how Christian actions have hurt millions of people down through history, you have not seemingly learned anything from the abuses of your forebears and so you continue to use YOUR interpretation of the Bible as justification for ignoring Jesus' commandments and hurting gay people.

I see you routinely attacking Christians. You have been very insulting towards me. You have supported laws that will force others to abide by your view of marriage.

Two wrongs doesn't make a right. The irrelevant past, doesn't justify a rude and insulting present. Nor does it justify forcing your world views down others throats. You are no better hon. Sorry.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I see you routinely attacking Christians. You have been very insulting towards me. You have supported laws that will force others to abide by your view of marriage.

Two wrongs doesn't make a right. The irrelevant past, doesn't justify a rude and insulting present. Nor does it justify forcing your world views down others throats. You are no better hon. Sorry.

I speak about the abuses I see, if you find that insulting then so be it. Unlike you I have never passed laws to take from others what I claim for my own, but this is what you do when you vote to disenfrachise gay and trans people. No place in all your quotes did you address the two most important commandments in the Bible, instead you choose to use scriptures that Jesus said were less important so that you can continue to force others to obey your rules.

You say that I'm trying to force my definition into law, but in reality I'm trying to gain equality against the unwarranted attacks by self-identified Christians who ignore Jesus' most important teachings.

The irrelevant past is not irrelevant when you are making the same mistakes that your forefathers did, you have the same self-righteous smugness that allowed a million women to be burned at the stake, that allowed slavery, and all the other egregious abuses of your religion. All of those people ignored Jesus' two most important commandments too. Unctuous hypocrisy.

Sometimes I think that it would be a wonderful education for our country to be overrun by Islam so that people like you could be forced to obey as you force us to obey. The irony would be delicious, because those people are just as smugly self-righteous as you are.

(Oh, and Andy, when you quote Thessalonians you should note 1st or 2nd.)

 

[PLC1]

OK, I'm convinced, I'm converted. The Bible is the word of God, every last chapter and verse, no question about it. Now, I have some questions I'd like answered, so I'll know how to proceed with this new faith and knowledge:



When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

OK, I'm convinced, I'm converted. The Bible is the word of God, every last chapter and verse, no question about it. Now, I have some questions I'd like answered, so I'll know how to proceed with this new faith and knowledge:

When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

What makes the humor so biting is the underlying truth of the questions. And when you juxtapose this with Dr. Who's internal consistency concept and compare these things to Jesus' two most important commandments one can easily see why there are more than 4000 arguing sects of Christians.

 

[PLC1]

What makes the humor so biting is the underlying truth of the questions. And when you juxtapose this with Dr. Who's internal consistency concept and compare these things to Jesus' two most important commandments one can easily see why there are more than 4000 arguing sects of Christians.

Humor? That was supposed to have been humor? Why, I've already started gathering stones. Maybe I'll just use them to pave my driveway instead.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Humor? That was supposed to have been humor? Why, I've already started gathering stones. Maybe I'll just use them to pave my driveway instead.

No, no, save them up in case we need to stone some woman who wasn't a virgin on her marriage bed.

 

[Dr.Who]

Really? The limits of language didn't stop the Inquisition from burning and tearing people and animals to pieces. It didn't stop the Crusades, it didn't stop a million women from being burned at the stake, it didn't save Joan of Arc from being burned at the stake, it didn't stop the enslavement of black people, it didn't stop women from being treated as 2nd class citizens for centuries... can you think of one abuse that the language limit prevented? I can't. Look at all the weird stuff people manage to attribute to the words in the Bible.

Even the clearest statements carry no weight. LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF. That's only 4 words, but Christians have managed to make that have no meaning when it comes to hurting those they have Judged to be "less than".

Let's note here that I presented a question to you and Nums and Andy which none of you has addressed. Why is that?

What's your point? So people have ignored the clear teaching of the bible. How does their ignoring the clear teaching in any way make the words on the paper any less easy to see? And by the way most of what you listed was purpetrated by non-christians.

But were there people who set aside thier evil desires because of what they read? How would we know? It is not very easy to count the inquisitions that did not happen.

Yes people atribute weird stuff to the bible. Most of us can tell that aliens from outer space are weird.

 

[Little-Acorn]

No, you miss a salient point: no one is claiming that man-made global warming is "God's Word" like they are for the Bible.

What else could they be claiming?

None of the manmade-global-whatever acolytes have been able to produce a single sutdy showing man has had anything to do with climate change, upward or downward. Yet they insist that we have to believe it's so, and then demand that we spend ourselves into the poorhouse to change what we can't change.

"Manmade Global Warming" is a completely faith-based religion, with NO evidence to back it up.

 

[Dr.Who]

How can that possibly be reconciled with the doctrine of an eye for an eye, stoning adulterers, and so forth? the OT has some pretty draconian punishments for people who don't do what someone says they're supposed to do. You have read Leviticus, I assume. there are some really strange admonitions in that book, don't you agree?

What makes you think that among the people chosen to carry God's word a punishment is too draconian for an evil act that threatens the whole plan of a people who are set aside from their neighbors?

An adulterer was deserving of death not only because it was adultery but because it threatened the entire structure of the Jewish way and sometimes because there was a deeper lesson being taught. It seems to me that among dessert dwellers stoning would be the quickest and most humane. I would not expect them to carry a gallows in the camels back, but stones could be found anywhere.

 

[Dr.Who]

Does that mean that you have the right to use force to make others obey what you consider to be "certain" standards? What about their free-will? I know, you'll bring up murder here, but we're not talking about people who abrogate the free-will of others by using violence. We're discussing why, despite the LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF commandment by Jesus, that you feel it acceptable to punish gay people who are not harming anyone. Why can't you wait for God to Judge them and punish them? Why do YOU ignore Jesus while claiming to be a Christian?

yes, the police or sometimes even everyday citizens have a right and even a duty to use force to stop evil people from doing wrong. Once they have done wrong then they have already exercized their free will.

I don't condone any punishment for gays.

 

[Dr.Who]

If someone makes up a lie about you, should you be punished for what you are accused of? Gay people want equality under the law. Who are you to Judge their actions? If gay people harm others, then they should come under the hand of the law, but denying them equality for NO REASON is what's being done. I object to many of the Christians actions, but I have never tried to take from them what I claim for my own. You do that very thing, how do you justify it in the face of Jesus' two most important commandments?

They are not denied equality but they cant engage in a marriage that is designed to restrict the rights breeders for the protection of the children. Gays don't breed so they don't need to hve their rights restricted by marriage laws. They actually have more rights than those who are bound by marriage.

 

[Dr.Who]

Andy made that argument on this page of this thread. All the arguments against gay marriage have been religiously based. The research that has been done on the millions of children who have been raised in gay households around the world show that there is no harm to the children. Gender differences are irrelevant, marriage is about love and committment. You are scrambling for an argument because you know that there isn't one.

Yep andy said he would not support same sex marriage. Guess that was why i said "as far as i know."

But it wold still be true that most of the arguments that have been presented are secular.