Taxes and the rich

[Federal Farmer]

Clearly we need more balance and less of people just wanting someone else to be the payer.

I like a flat consistent and low tax on income which is the same for all people. I would include a small standard deduction for everyone equivalent to the poverty rate. A low rate would not punish productivity.

That would be the FairTax, but instead of a deduction, they simply send you a check at the first of the month, equivalent to the projected taxes spent up to the poverty level, and it eliminates the federal income tax altogether by instituting a simple consumption tax.

 

[Pandora]

That would be the FairTax, but instead of a deduction, they simply send you a check at the first of the month, equivalent to the projected taxes spent up to the poverty level, and it eliminates the federal income tax altogether by instituting a simple consumption tax.

I like the idea of having to pay your taxes via check every month, then we would know exactly what we are paying and it would feel more painful. We would flip out and riot when congress gave their selves raises and we heard about some new useless and wasteful program that they wanted to start.

The current system seems like we are dumb sheep, to stupid to know what they are doing to us, and to lazy to care or really do anything to stop it.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Was it Warren Buffet who said he paid a smaller percent of his income to taxes then his Secretary or something on those lines?

 

[Pandora]

Was it Warren Buffet who said he paid a smaller percent of his income to taxes then his Secretary or something on those lines?

I dont know who it was, but who ever it was it was unfair,

it was just as unfair as the millions of americans stuck paying for those who pay nothing, and those who pay little.

everyone should pay exactly the same on an income tax or abolish it and bring in a sales tax, then you pay as you go.

 

[PLC1]

Here is one way to calculate whether you are paying more than your fair share:

The federal budget last year was 2.3 trillion, excluding the war in Iraq and any natural disasters that might occur.

Of that, about two trillion were collected in taxes, while the rest was borrowed.

I've been using a guestimate of 100 million taxpayers. That is a guess, of course, and another poster said that the total was more like two hundred million. Let's use the higher figure.

Two hundred million is two to the 8th. power, while two trillion is two to the 12th. Subtract the zeros, and you have four left over, or $10,000.

That higher figure counts married couples filing jointly as two taxpayers. My guestimate counted them as one.

If you paid more than $10,000 in taxes ($20,000 if married filing jointly), then you paid more than your share.

If not, then the rich probably are subsidizing you.

 

[Pandora]

Here is one way to calculate whether you are paying more than your fair share:

The federal budget last year was 2.3 trillion, excluding the war in Iraq and any natural disasters that might occur.

Of that, about two trillion were collected in taxes, while the rest was borrowed.

I've been using a guestimate of 100 million taxpayers. That is a guess, of course, and another poster said that the total was more like two hundred million. Let's use the higher figure.

Two hundred million is two to the 8th. power, while two trillion is two to the 12th. Subtract the zeros, and you have four left over, or $10,000.

That higher figure counts married couples filing jointly as two taxpayers. My guestimate counted them as one.

If you paid more than $10,000 in taxes ($20,000 if married filing jointly), then you paid more than your share.

If not, then the rich probably are subsidizing you.

I did not pay any federal taxes. They take it out during the year but at the end I get it all back and then some. Because of earned income credit I actually get back more than I paid. I spent the money and I will again if I get the money but if I could vote to change the law so every single person paid the exact same percent of their income to taxes, I would. It is not fair for some pathetic morons in government to play Robin Hood.

I did get extra soaked on state taxes though. In my liberal state they have zero problem taxing the poor. They just love to tax.

 

[BigRob]

If you paid more than $10,000 in taxes ($20,000 if married filing jointly), then you paid more than your share.

Well now I am just pissed. Give me my money back.

 

[PLC1]

I did not pay any federal taxes. They take it out during the year but at the end I get it all back and then some. Because of earned income credit I actually get back more than I paid. I spent the money and I will again if I get the money but if I could vote to change the law so every single person paid the exact same percent of their income to taxes, I would. It is not fair for some pathetic morons in government to play Robin Hood.

I did get extra soaked on state taxes though. In my liberal state they have zero problem taxing the poor. They just love to tax.

And yet, they have no sales tax in Oregon. They do have some whopping property taxes, but, then, if your income is so low that you don't pay federal income taxes, you must not own a whole lot of property.

You must be on the "give to the poor" side of the government playing Robin Hood, yet you think it is a bad idea. That's interesting.

 

[Pandora]

And yet, they have no sales tax in Oregon. They do have some whopping property taxes, but, then, if your income is so low that you don't pay federal income taxes, you must not own a whole lot of property.

You must be on the "give to the poor" side of the government playing Robin Hood, yet you think it is a bad idea. That's interesting.

Oregon's taxes are in the top 10 of all the states WHEN you add in all of the "FEES” they hide taxes by calling them fees. And yes the property tax is so high in some areas there are much fewer kids in those areas. I work for the biggest school district in my area, the property tax for that district is to high for normal families to live in that they move to either side to the less expensive districts, and now the district that I work in has a low enrollment rate for grade school kids, while the districts around us are growing like crazy, but the Stupidvisors at the top cannot seem to connect that when they raise the tax people move. So now that the enrollment is lower and we have had to close several schools. Now they are talking about new bond measures and new taxes to make up for the fact that people left due to high taxes. This will only result in more people moving away but they have not enough brain cells to figure that out.


And yes I am on the receiving end of the Robin Hood giving, and yes I think it’s wrong. I will not always be here, hopefully and when I am not, I sure won’t like being soaked. Like the ones who are currently being soaked. But even if I never do any better than I am now, It is wrong to take from some groups and give to others.

I do pay out the back end in state taxes, and I see the stupid programs it goes to, like the methadone clinic, to give free drugs to heroin addicts so they don’t get withdrawals. It is a huge burden to pay the state taxes and to think its going to pay for methadone for someone who is a heroin addict. that infuriates me. I think they had to close the methadone clinics lately or they keep it out of the news because I have not heard about them for a few months now. But there are plenty of other programs that are a waste of tax payer dollars to keep me good and mad.

 

[PLC1]

Oregon's taxes are in the top 10 of all the states WHEN you add in all of the "FEES” they hide taxes by calling them fees. And yes the property tax is so high in some areas there are much fewer kids in those areas. I work for the biggest school district in my area, the property tax for that district is to high for normal families to live in that they move to either side to the less expensive districts, and now the district that I work in has a low enrollment rate for grade school kids, while the districts around us are growing like crazy, but the Stupidvisors at the top cannot seem to connect that when they raise the tax people move. So now that the enrollment is lower and we have had to close several schools. Now they are talking about new bond measures and new taxes to make up for the fact that people left due to high taxes. This will only result in more people moving away but they have not enough brain cells to figure that out.


And yes I am on the receiving end of the Robin Hood giving, and yes I think it’s wrong. I will not always be here, hopefully and when I am not, I sure won’t like being soaked. Like the ones who are currently being soaked. But even if I never do any better than I am now, It is wrong to take from some groups and give to others.

I do pay out the back end in state taxes, and I see the stupid programs it goes to, like the methadone clinic, to give free drugs to heroin addicts so they don’t get withdrawals. It is a huge burden to pay the state taxes and to think its going to pay for methadone for someone who is a heroin addict. that infuriates me. I think they had to close the methadone clinics lately or they keep it out of the news because I have not heard about them for a few months now. But there are plenty of other programs that are a waste of tax payer dollars to keep me good and mad.

There are a lot of state and federal programs that are a waste of money, no doubt about it. This state is in a deficit situation, due to overspending according to the governor. The federal bureaucracy is in a huge deficit situation for the same reason, and yet fiscal conservatives have gone the way of the whooping crane.

We passed proposition 13 about 30 years ago in an effort to cut property taxes. It was called a taxpayer revolt. It did have some unintended consequences, including a huge increase in state income taxes and sales taxes, and a move to state control of the school system (since the money is now generated state wide.) The taxpayer revolt really just created a shift from one tax to another and increased the power of state government.

My property taxes are pretty low as a result of Prop 13, lower than those of most of my neighbors in fact, since I bought my house before '78. My opinion of that is the same as yours about being in the position of paying less in federal taxes: It is in my selfish and short term interests, but not in the best long term interests of anyone.

The problem boils down to the fact that tax cuts are popular, and spending cuts are popular so long as they only affect the other guy.

 

[Pandora]

There are a lot of state and federal programs that are a waste of money, no doubt about it. This state is in a deficit situation, due to overspending according to the governor. The federal bureaucracy is in a huge deficit situation for the same reason, and yet fiscal conservatives have gone the way of the whooping crane.

We passed proposition 13 about 30 years ago in an effort to cut property taxes. It was called a taxpayer revolt. It did have some unintended consequences, including a huge increase in state income taxes and sales taxes, and a move to state control of the school system (since the money is now generated state wide.) The taxpayer revolt really just created a shift from one tax to another and increased the power of state government.

My property taxes are pretty low as a result of Prop 13, lower than those of most of my neighbors in fact, since I bought my house before '78. My opinion of that is the same as yours about being in the position of paying less in federal taxes: It is in my selfish and short term interests, but not in the best long term interests of anyone.

The problem boils down to the fact that tax cuts are popular, and spending cuts are popular so long as they only affect the other guy.

In Oregon we had measure 5. It kept the government from raising property tax more than a certain percent each year. The schools cried foul and say that is why they are so destitute today.

I work there; I know what kind of waste we have. When the secretary has a secretary and during a funding shortage we tear out windows on the east wall to put one on the west wall because the secretary thinks it looks better, and the big wigs get an 8% pay raise every year and one type of bonus or another, or both, while we cry we don’t have enough funding. We need more because it’s for the kids.

I am just sick and tired of the words "its for the kids” they use children like hostages to get the funding they want, fully knowing its for administrative cost, waste and raises for various groups.


We tried a few years ago to pass a measure called 28. They said grandmothers would be thrown out on the street if we did not pass it, the police department would lose funding so would the fire department. The people voted it down and so they put up measure 30 the next year that was the same just with another name and the people voted that down.

We all waited to see a grandmother out on the street and we never saw any, but the good news was they found several million dollars they didn’t realize they had to fix the funding problem. No cuts happened. After this ORDEAL it came out that certain school districts in my state were buying pizza cutters for 800 dollar each. They apparently bought a dozen or more but the pizza they serve comes from a pizza take out place PRE CUT.

That is when we found out about the methadone clinics, they were not willing to cut, and said they would cut the police department first.

If you taxes are higher in California due to decreases in property tax I am betting you could find millions of dollars worth of worthless programs in your state that could be cut rather than raise your taxes.

 

[PLC1]

If you taxes are higher in California due to decreases in property tax I am betting you could find millions of dollars worth of worthless programs in your state that could be cut rather than raise your taxes.

I'm sure you would win that bet. Now, as to just how to root out the wasteful spending, I'm at a loss. Those administrative costs are somebody's fat paycheck for doing little, and that someone usually has connections. Try to make some real cuts, and you get the kind of emotional ad campaigns you describe.

How much funding the school gets depends on who you ask. Much of the money is siphoned off at the state level, or, in the case of large districts, at that level. The money that actually gets down to the classroom level, where it can do some good, is a far cry from what is actually spent. What we need is less centralization, more local control, and a larger portion of the money going to those kids it's for. What we're getting is more centralization and federal as well as state control. We seriously need to get Uncle Sam out of the education business.

I can remember when our sales tax was 5%, instead of 7.5 to 8% depending on where you live, and the state income tax was not enough to justify withholding. Property taxes did come down with Proposition 13, at least for a while and for some of us, but sales and income taxes soared. Now, we pay more than ever, and the state can't balance its budget.

And that situation is mild compared to what happens at the federal level.

OK, end of rant about government spending.

 

[Pandora]

I'm sure you would win that bet. Now, as to just how to root out the wasteful spending, I'm at a loss. Those administrative costs are somebody's fat paycheck for doing little, and that someone usually has connections. Try to make some real cuts, and you get the kind of emotional ad campaigns you describe.

How much funding the school gets depends on who you ask. Much of the money is siphoned off at the state level, or, in the case of large districts, at that level. The money that actually gets down to the classroom level, where it can do some good, is a far cry from what is actually spent. What we need is less centralization, more local control, and a larger portion of the money going to those kids it's for. What we're getting is more centralization and federal as well as state control. We seriously need to get Uncle Sam out of the education business.

I can remember when our sales tax was 5%, instead of 7.5 to 8% depending on where you live, and the state income tax was not enough to justify withholding. Property taxes did come down with Proposition 13, at least for a while and for some of us, but sales and income taxes soared. Now, we pay more than ever, and the state can't balance its budget.

And that situation is mild compared to what happens at the federal level.

OK, end of rant about government spending.

If we had a law that Federal taxes fund the basics it takes to run an efficient government, abolishing old programs and no making new programs.

And

If we had a law that the state can only call for taxes to fund basic state needs, abolishing all the stupid side programs.

Then


If we could keep our freaking money and give it to the program that we feel matters most, good programs would prosper and bad would fall.

And all would be happy except for the liberals who want to take some peoples money to make useless programs for other people. But let’s face it; those people are never really going to be happy anyways

 

[Dr.Who]

Here is one way to calculate whether you are paying more than your fair share:

The federal budget last year was 2.3 trillion, excluding the war in Iraq and any natural disasters that might occur.

Of that, about two trillion were collected in taxes, while the rest was borrowed.

I've been using a guestimate of 100 million taxpayers. That is a guess, of course, and another poster said that the total was more like two hundred million. Let's use the higher figure.

Two hundred million is two to the 8th. power, while two trillion is two to the 12th. Subtract the zeros, and you have four left over, or $10,000.

That higher figure counts married couples filing jointly as two taxpayers. My guestimate counted them as one.

If you paid more than $10,000 in taxes ($20,000 if married filing jointly), then you paid more than your share.

If not, then the rich probably are subsidizing you.

We make good living. Our budget includes some extravagances but it is tight. We have all we need (but not all we want) and we can donate to charity as well.

But with wise money managament and some good deductions (mortgage, kids, etc.) we definitely pay less than that in income tax.

So yes I am being subsidized. And it is not right. The rich should pay less.

 

[Pandora]

We make good living. Our budget includes some extravagances but it is tight. We have all we need (but not all we want) and we can donate to charity as well.

But with wise money managament and some good deductions (mortgage, kids, etc.) we definitely pay less than that in income tax.

So yes I am being subsidized. And it is not right. The rich should pay less.

It is nice not to be alone in this thinking. I wish everyone who was getting some cared a little more about the ones who were paying more. I don't know if there will be a flood of people like that though.

When the ones being soaked in taxes complain people call them selfish. When people like you and I say its really not fair and we are on the end that gets the extra, maybe people will start looking at it differntly. I hope that one day I will be on the giving end not the end I am at now. For a while I wont mind the paying, it will be like a pay back for what I have gotten. But I wont want to do it forever