Students don't take school seriously...

[dahermit]

I think I stated in an earlier post this priority along with work ethic would not be removed from schools till our Economy and possibly the Monetary System change,

I do not understand...did you mean to say, "... work ethic should be removed from schools till our Economy..."?
I do agree however, that the schools are trying to educate for jobs that do not exist in todays depressed economy. Also, the employers being very quick to demand "work ethic", are not as quick to do their part with a "pay ethic".

As far as the Universal Education System "Failing" I meant that it's quite literally failing to educate the majority of it's pupils regardless of work ethic involved and I believe there is several underlining issues with the Universal Education System that has lead to this, lack of funding, one teaching method and teacher to a large class and so on, the list truely goes on.

Over my life time, I have seen corporal punishment be legislated out of the schools and the students become unmanageable. This is not the fault of the teacher. Teachers are not given any tools (methods), that control the student behavior and classes have become uncontrollable. If the students are not sitting with their mouths shut, listening, doing their assignments, the result is what we have today.

USA I believe is currently #10 on a list of Countries with the best Education System, I believe the main reason they're not higher is because your government for some strange reason really dosen't fund your Education System even close to enough.

The U.S. has one of the worst secondary (middle school through high school) systems of the industrialized nations. However, it is because of the out of control students and their indulgent parents. The U.S.A.'s college system however, is arguably the best in the world inasmuch as students come here from all over the world to go to school.
As to funding schools, it has been ruled by the U.S. Supreme Court that the responsibility for education falls to the individual states and the states push some of the responsibility to the individual school districts. In short, any funds that come from the Federal Government are added to encourage special programs, not to be the primary source of funding for education, which results in a very wide difference in the amount of money spent on educating the students from one district to another and one state to another.

 

[dahermit]

There is a disconnect here, you see, if students saw adults that they knew personally who benefited from an education, then students would know that becoming educated has value. Part of the problem here is that all too many people in the public school system are incompetent and incapable of teaching, they are stretched to their limit just keeping order in a classroom.

Armed with a cattle prod, you would be surprised how orderly a classroom would become. You do not have the credentials to conclude that a teacher is not adequate for the position.

"...then students would know that becoming educated has value..." It is not the teachers duty to convince the student that education has value; it is the duty of the parents. In the U.S., this is apparent in the attitudes and willingness to learn of what are referred to as "preppies". Their parents send them to school for the purpose of education, not having a good time, be entertained, be cool, be the class clown, show how stupid the teachers are, etc. And they do well, are always on the honer role, valedictorians of their class, members of the honor society, go on to college, become successful in business and industry. Jerk-offs on the other hand, complain about "bad teachers", being punished for, "just....", too many rules, not being allowed to dissent, etc., etc., etc.

From my own experience with the public school system, I very much agree with the bit about far too much PC and not enough room for dissent.

Six times seven is forty-two. There is no room for dissent. The only time it is legitimate to offer a dissenting opinion is when a teacher requests dissenting opinions.

The "history" that is in the curriculum is a JOKE, they really don't teach HISTORY they dispense propaganda.

Give examples please. What particular event in history, as it is being taught, is propaganda?

Where are the real TEACHERS? the ones that will incite independent thought?

They are teaching in university philosophy classes. High School English, math, science, history, computers, etc., are not the proper place for your out bursts of selfish, self indulgence.

A! I'm the character that was thrown out of Chemistry for being a FREE RADICAL!

No, you were thrown out for interfering with the education of students who were trying to learn. You were being disruptive.

 

[Synical]

I do not understand...did you mean to say, "... work ethic should be removed from schools till our Economy..."?
I do agree however, that the schools are trying to educate for jobs that do not exist in todays depressed economy. Also, the employers being very quick to demand "work ethic", are not as quick to do their part with a "pay ethic".

Over my life time, I have seen corporal punishment be legislated out of the schools and the students become unmanageable. This is not the fault of the teacher. Teachers are not given any tools (methods), that control the student behavior and classes have become uncontrollable. If the students are not sitting with their mouths shut, listening, doing their assignments, the result is what we have today.


The U.S. has one of the worst secondary (middle school through high school) systems of the industrialized nations. However, it is because of the out of control students and their indulgent parents. The U.S.A.'s college system however, is arguably the best in the world inasmuch as students come here from all over the world to go to school.
As to funding schools, it has been ruled by the U.S. Supreme Court that the responsibility for education falls to the individual states and the states push some of the responsibility to the individual school districts. In short, any funds that come from the Federal Government are added to encourage special programs, not to be the primary source of funding for education, which results in a very wide difference in the amount of money spent on educating the students from one district to another and one state to another.

I meant to say Work Ethic in an ideal world wouldn't be the priority in our Education System but work ethic being removed in our current economy would simply fail to even remotely prepare children for life outside of school.

Punishing children with such aggression simply promotes such aggression as a viable problem solver, I'd rather this not be the case. I do believe that in certain class rooms around the world a large ammount of students become unmanageable but this is down to the school to create a stricter or more efficient disciplinary system, from my own experience schools I am familar with here in the UK simply don't follow through on their disciplinary policies.
I agree to a certain extent with your stance on teachers however again I believe now enough is done to create an efficient disciplinary system in schools and teachers seem to a lot of the time not follow through on a system provided to them in most cases anyway.

The noteable difference here between a middle or high school and a College/University is that the middle and high school are given state cirriculums to strictly follow and in most countries a level of conformity and anti-individualism is pushed on the students, none of this effects the College/University however which is free to let great minds such as lecturers in some of your top Colleges to teach in the true meaning of the word opposed to passing on information provided by the government.
Of course another noteable difference is the funding, Education needs to be the priority of a Country and it's far too often the Military is that priority.

 

[dahermit]

Punishing children with such aggression simply promotes such aggression as a viable problem solver, I'd rather this not be the case. I do believe that in certain class rooms around the world a large ammount of students become unmanageable but this is down to the school to create a stricter or more efficient disciplinary system, from my own experience schools I am familar with here in the UK simply don't follow through on their disciplinary policies.
I agree to a certain extent with your stance on teachers however again I believe now enough is done to create an efficient disciplinary system in schools and teachers seem to a lot of the time not follow through on a system provided to them in most cases anyway.

In the U.S. teachers do not have the authority to discipline. Since the creation of the "assistant principal", the authority has move to them. The outcome of the shift can be seen when an assistant principal enters the room of a noisy class. They immediately quiet down, whereas they disregard the teacher as being powerless.

I disagree that, "...Punishing children with such aggression simply promotes such aggression as a viable problem solver..." In this country, courts will sometimes sentence troublesome teenagers to "boot camp" where they are treated very aggressively and have been shown to respond favorably by changing their disruptive behavior. If those same teenagers were subject to an aggressive environment (instead of lax indulgence), they would not become disruptive in the first place. Those who say: "There are better ways to discipline students than harsh punishments...", do not realize that those alternative ways mostly do not work whereas, being in U.S. Army Basic Training in 1962, we were kicked, harshly treated to the extreme, no one died, and only one recruit (out of 200) could not make the adjustment and was discharged. In short, it worked and worked well, no one ever was "disruptive" or did not immediately do what they were told. Compare that to the dropout rate of high schools.

I agree that there is no follow through. I was involved in a very disruptive middle school (as well as the district's high school), where in the teachers designed a ten step linear program where designated steps were given to correct student behavior. It ended in complete failure due the practice of the administration to inadvertently convert it to a circular system. The administrators never got to step nine where they would refer a student to the school board for expulsion, they just rotated the students through "time-out", which is a step five or so. It is notable that the administration seemed not to notice that the discipline system was not working as hoped...It occurred to me that for the administration's purpose, it was important to have a system to point to as to what they did to control student behavior, but it was not as important to them that it actually worked.

The noteable difference here between a middle or high school and a College/University is that the middle and high school are given state cirriculums to strictly follow and in most countries a level of conformity and anti-individualism is pushed on the students, none of this effects the College/University however which is free to let great minds such as lecturers in some of your top Colleges to teach in the true meaning of the word opposed to passing on information provided by the government.
Of course another noteable difference is the funding, Education needs to be the priority of a Country and it's far too often the Military is that priority.

I disagree. The most notable difference is that in College, the students are paying for the instruction. If there was some jerk that disrupted the class, the other students would sanction them (I have seen it done) with something like: "Hey, shut-up, I'm paying for this class and I do not need your disruption."

"...middle and high school are given state cirriculums to strictly follow and in most countries a level of conformity and anti-individualism is pushed on the students..." There are requirements for classes in secondary education. So much math, science, etc. What classes would you want included that are not available? Other than not being disruptive, what conformity are you referring to? What anti-individualism is pushed(by the system, not individual teachers which are just opinions which you can disregard), on the students?

There are several classes in College that are mandatory and not of the student's choosing. Physical education, a lab science, a humanity class, were three that my degree required. I took them and kept my opinion to myself whether or not they should be included. (I was exempt from Physical Education though because of previous Army service.)

 

[Dante the Marxist]

Armed with a cattle prod, you would be surprised how orderly a classroom would become. You do not have the credentials to conclude that a teacher is not adequate for the position.

Are you suggesting shocking us with CATTLE PRODS!? Are you insane? The shock from a cattle prod is enough to kill a child.

"...then students would know that becoming educated has value..." It is not the teachers duty to convince the student that education has value; it is the duty of the parents. In the U.S., this is apparent in the attitudes and willingness to learn of what are referred to as "preppies". Their parents send them to school for the purpose of education, not having a good time, be entertained, be cool, be the class clown, show how stupid the teachers are, etc. And they do well, are always on the honer role, valedictorians of their class, members of the honor society, go on to college, become successful in business and industry. Jerk-offs on the other hand, complain about "bad teachers", being punished for, "just....", too many rules, not being allowed to dissent, etc., etc., etc.

"Preppies" dont actually want to learn, contrary to what teachers think. I have seen many of them mocking teachers behind thier backs. They just do well as an excuse to treat everyone else like crap. And perhaps "jerk-offs" are right.

Six times seven is forty-two. There is no room for dissent. The only time it is legitimate to offer a dissenting opinion is when a teacher requests dissenting opinions.

Im pretty sure he is not talking about math and science. What kind of world do we live in when dissenting are drowned out unless the ruling class wants to here them?

Give examples please. What particular event in history, as it is being taught, is propaganda?

The second I walked into history class, "communism is very scary" came out of the teacher's mouth. Then came the 45 minute anti-communist barrage. And the next day, the pro-capitalist barrage began.

They are teaching in university philosophy classes. High School English, math, science, history, computers, etc., are not the proper place for your out bursts of selfish, self indulgence.

Outbursts disappear when the need for them disappears.

No, you were thrown out for interfering with the education of students who were trying to learn. You were being disruptive.

These children are not learning much anyhow, and learn more when there is an outburst of political feeling.

 

[BreakFree]

If the schools established a sense of urgency in the children receiving education, they may realize the importance of education. Instead I think the teacher's and principals in schools concentrate on more downstream issues than taking an upstream approach to revive the education process.

 

[PLC1]

If the schools established a sense of urgency in the children receiving education, they may realize the importance of education. Instead I think the teacher's and principals in schools concentrate on more downstream issues than taking an upstream approach to revive the education process.

If that means that schools are having to swim hard against the current to counter the anti intellectual bent of our society, the lack of parenting, and the lack of work ethic on the part of students, then I agree.

 

[dahermit]

If the schools established a sense of urgency in the children receiving education, they may realize the importance of education. Instead I think the teacher's and principals in schools concentrate on more downstream issues than taking an upstream approach to revive the education process.

How does one go about establishing a sense of urgency in students. They wander into the school late, they wander the halls making no effort to get to class on time. They disrupt class and talk back to the teachers. If the teacher tries to correct them, the parents claim that, "...you never liked my kid...", or, "...you treat the rich kids better...", "...you pick on my kid for little things...", etc., ad nauseum. I was shocked to discover this spring that two of my wife's relatives, graduating from high school had made no plans as to their future. Why did the parents not stress post-high school career plans through-out the high school years to the point that the kids had formulated some plan...any plan?

That is what I did for my son (now 33). He reminded me that I had taken him on a ride when he was 9 years old, where I showed him the houses where "poor" people live (run-down part of town), and then showed him the houses where the wealthy people lived. I asked him, "Do you think that people that live in these run-down houses went to college"? Then when showing him the nice houses, I asked the same question, "Do you think that people that live in these nice houses went to college"? He got the message. I was very surprised he had remembered. In any event, I was constantly on him while in grade school and high school telling him how important it was to his future to do well and learn and eventually go to college. It was my job to instill values in him; the schools job is to provide the opportunity for education.

Nevertheless, "...concentrate on downstream issues...", is ambiguous. I am sure that you have a frame of reference, but throwing out that statement without explaining what you mean or give an example, leave us in the dark as to what you meant.

 

[Dante the Marxist]

Am I on dahermit's ignore list or something?

 

[Synical]

Most likely.

 

[Synical]

The only way I can see the education system becoming viable in this day and age is to simply start over, the system currently is catering to an economy that no longer exists which revolved around assembly lines and manual labor.
Even though I disagree with schools catering to any economy it can at least do it right, schools need to be up to date and on top of the economys needs.
The only problem is that the priority needs to shift from the Military in most countries to the Education System, that is not going to happen easily.

As far as discipline in classrooms, much more strict and efficient discipline systems needs to be thought out, implemented and USED by the schools and teachers whenever needed, there has been too much leanancy in the classroom. As fas as corporal punishment, you'll probably know I disagree.
The use of aggression as a problem solver is not the way forward.

To be honest, if you allow a child to have more choices in their own education discipline might not be as such a problem as it is now.
When a child has an interest for a certain subject and a teaching method, you'll most certainly notice a difference in their behaviour.

 

[dahermit]

To be honest, if you allow a child to have more choices in their own education discipline might not be as such a problem as it is now.
When a child has an interest for a certain subject and a teaching method, you'll most certainly notice a difference in their behaviour.

That sounds good, and it(machine shop classes, et. al.) has worked for a very small number of students. However, I cannot perceive of any more choices than those that were available where I taught. Along with the usual fare, they had the opportunity to hop on a bus, go to auto shop, auto body, machine shop, color print shop, culinary class, barber/beauty school class, and several others that I cannot remember ( we had a two Skill Centers nearby and a Community College in which they could take classes. Nevertheless, many students although signing up for the classes to get way from academics, were not successful there either. I remember one dipship malcontent that disrupted constantly in our school, and was kicked out of the Skill Center for destroying an expensive piece of graphic arts equipment (even though he stated that he had a serious interest in a career in graphic arts). And another student who wanted to take metal shop, but was kicked out after not attempting to construct any projects but cut the metal leg of a chair off with a hacksaw (In middle school he had been removed from art class in handcuffs by police twice; the last time for stabbing another student in the chest with a pencil). In many cases, it is just "casting pearls before the swine". Albeit, it did as you stated...for just a few. We also had an "alternative school", where the students were fewer in number, and the classes taught at a slower pace. They also had cigarette breaks where they could go outside and smoke if they wished. Many did not respond to that either.
Which begs the question: What classes do you see as those that should be added to inspire the students to participate?

 

[Synical]

Which begs the question: What classes do you see as those that should be added to inspire the students to participate?

That's not a decision I can make, that falls upon the student to decide what they find interesting.
There is always going to be students with certain learning disabilitys and the inability to perform under traditional methods of teaching and these students need to be dealt with not with disciplinary methods but instead make sure there is the qualified proffesionals to assist these students so that not only are they not left behind but the students who are willing to learn are not disrupted.

 

[dahermit]

That's not a decision I can make, that falls upon the student to decide what they find interesting.
There is always going to be students with certain learning disabilitys and the inability to perform under traditional methods of teaching and these students need to be dealt with not with disciplinary methods but instead make sure there is the qualified proffesionals to assist these students so that not only are they not left behind but the students who are willing to learn are not disrupted.

Well, that is the problem. I cannot think of anything that was not available to them. The problem with the students were I was, was that they were really not interested in anything. The only thing they wanted to make in metal shop were weapons and pot pipes.

We also had an "intermediate schools system" in our school district that provided a host of programs and special-ed teachers for the disadvantaged and those with special needs. But, most of the trouble makes were not in that category.

 

[Dante the Marxist]

Dahermit, if im on your ignore list, dont respond.