Solution to the oil problem

[Dr.Who]

[A story of unbelievable waste and BigOil vice..



The irony...


People were lining up in DROVES...in D-R-O-V-E-S.. to buy the electric cars, ones that could be charged with solar panels at home and had a range up to 120 miles from one charge to the next. In other words essentially free commuting with no global-warming impact.

That free part...yeah...BigOil just wan't going to stand for that. Pockets undoubtedly got padded at GM, the recall happened and now GM faces possible bankruptcy...all for BigOil.

Be careful who you do favors for. Talk about shortsided profiteering..

If GM had stayed with the electric cars it would be one of the strongest car manufacturers in the US, if not the world.

Oh well...

More likely two states passed a law requiring car manufacturers to make 2% of its cars have zero emissions. To comply with the law, and keep selling any cars in those states, GM made a car that cost 80,000 to make but could only be leased at a value of 35,000. It also had the added problem that after 35,000 miles the whole expensive battery would have to be replaced at the manufacturers expense. When the car was found to have an electical problem that could cause a fire the company recalled the cars and then decided it was cheaper to sue the state and get the law repealed than to keep losing money on the cars. They won their case and that is that. The car could also only practically be driven in warm climates. Perhaps if advancements in battery technology had materialized the program could have been salvaged but the expected batteries were never invented. Now if any of you think you can do better GM invested 500 million into the program that made less than a thousand cars. I bet they would be willing to sell the rights for about 500 mil.

 

[Andy]

You are using logic and facts, in an attempt to convince an insane conspiracy theorist, who believes that big oil has corporate operatives, implanted on the forums, to promote nuclear power, in order to get people to buy more gasoline....

By all means continue to prove him wrong, but don't hold out much hope he'll learn.

 

[Sihouette]

lol

What's really insane is canning a project that was popular and the consumers would've continued to make so in favor of producing big gas guzzlers knowing the decline in the oil industry was imminent and pending...

If I was a GM stockholder, I'd be furious and looking for compensation for incompetence/mismanagement.

And why the forcible recall? Why not just allow consumers who already paid for their car to keep and drive them around? Why put a woman in handcuffs when she refused to allow GM to steal her property? Strange PR campaign for GM wouldn't you say?

If you expect me or anyone else to believe that GM couldn't refine their production to produce those little electric cars to within a profitable margin, you've got your work cut out for you.

What is really insane is spewing propaganda that is extremely hard to back, with no references to actual data, and expecting to be taken seriously.

 

[Sihouette]

Brand new, completely functional electric cars smashed and left for dead in the desert. Good work GM. Your stockholders must be thrilled!

General Motors is back at the scene of the crime.

When the Detroit automaker pulled the plug on its unprofitable electric-vehicle program in 2000, it became known, in the words of a popular documentary, as the company that killed the electric car. Its love affair with the Hummer didn't help either.

Now the company is betting big bucks — most of its current research-and-development budget — that the internal-combustion engine's time is running out. By spearheading a new generation of electric automobiles, the beleaguered giant also is hoping it can reclaim from Toyota the title of world's top carmaker.

GM's not-so-secret weapon: a sporty plug-in hybrid known as the Chevy Volt, scheduled for launch in 2010.

"We believe profoundly in the electrification of the automobile," said Robert Lutz, GM's vice chairman and head of product development, in an interview Tuesday in Seattle. Source: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2008003356_electriccar18.html

Really? That's not what your company said just 8 short years ago when the technology was known at that time to mass-produce the Iraq-war preventing vehicles...?

If I was a stockholder, I would launch an investigation into why for 8 years GM purposefully squandered the company's financial future betting on the telegraph device when it knew then that cellphones were the cutting edge.

I offer that the "mistake in production judgement" was nothing of the sort and that it was purposeful and motivated by bribe$ from BigOil. But then again, you know me and my "crazy" conspiracy theories..Not that BigOil has ever padded a pocket in it's career to the detriment of the American People..

And who will ultimately pay to bail out GM if it needs it? Right again...the American People. We get to pay twice thanks to BigOil. Those fatcats must be laughing their a$$es off behind closed doors..

 

[UShadItComing]

LIbsmasher wrote:

None of this chicken-sh__ boutique energy amounts to a rat's ass. They are nothing more than an ecofascist's pipe dream, and the US has to get on with the serious business of solving the energy problem with REAL solutions.

If you are a rightie then it's encouraging to hear you even admit that there is a problem now with a shortage of oil. If that's what you're actually saying and it seems to be because if not then you would advocate just drilling for all the oil the right always maintained was in the ground in the continental US. Up until recently that is! Now of course even the right is admitting that it's not there and that's interesting and encouraging but a little bewildering to hear a rightie giving lessons to lefties on how to solve the problems! Hasn't the left been dragging the right kicking and screaming on this issue for about the last 10 years?

Welcome to reality land. You may want to be a little more proactive on the AGW issue so you can claim to have a longstanding (at least a month) background in knowledge on how to deal with that problem.

Oh, and btw, I agree that nuclear is a great idea albeit not with the pie in the sky method you seem to be advocating. For a start, it's obviously incorrect to asume that energy can be had at any cost. Terribly uninformed economics wise to say the least.

 

[Sihouette]

Who you callin' left!?



Nuclear is not an option. The people would reject it in their backyard even more than offshore oil.

And for a fraction of the research, lease, environmental impact report, litigation, appeals, permit, construction, operation, maintenance and dicey waste-disposal costs associated with nuclear....just a thumbnail of those costs, we could implement wide-scale solar and solar fueling stations for electric cars. Also wind in appropriate windy areas and of course geothermal all along the steaming vents of the Cascade, Eastern Sierra and Yellowstone regions. Just a thumbnail of those colossal costs of the dangerous and time-bomb, terrorist-target nuclear plants.

Why not take the easy and clean route? Why? Because energy has to be dicey, hard to manufacture and unsafe, unstable so that prices can be readily and "justifiably" manipulated.

I think the time for saying no to energy monopolies is now.

 

[UShadItComing]

Who you callin' left!?



Nuclear is not an option. The people would reject it in their backyard even more than offshore oil.

As your post directly follows mine, it would be helpful I think to address the person you are talking to by name. I'll respond anyway. Unfortunately the US has chosen to ignore all the warnings of a coming fossil fuel energy crisis in the making. Whether or not the US can catch up in time to save their economy remains to be seen. Nuclear is indeed an option and is most likely the only option which can be developed in time in my opinion. It is not a pleasant option but it is an option for the interim.

And for a fraction of the research, lease, environmental impact report, litigation, appeals, permit, construction, operation, maintenance and dicey waste-disposal costs associated with nuclear....just a thumbnail of those costs, we could implement wide-scale solar and solar fueling stations for electric cars. Also wind in appropriate windy areas and of course geothermal all along the steaming vents of the Cascade, Eastern Sierra and Yellowstone regions. Just a thumbnail of those colossal costs of the dangerous and time-bomb, terrorist-target nuclear plants.

Most people don't appreciate the amount of energy received from fossil fuels and therefore think that alternative forms of energy can replace it. This is not something that can be accomplished quickly in terms of decades and in fact it won't ever be accomplished with wind and solar for example. In the real world the US will need to change it's gluttonous lifestyle and reduce it's energy consumption drastically and that is a fact which most people are still missing. This is due to the fact that the right has dragged it's collective feet in even coming to a realization that oil is not going to be available in unlimited amounts forever. Now of course the clever ones are starting to take credit for the need to change all along. Isn't that a peach!

Why not take the easy and clean route? Why? Because energy has to be dicey, hard to manufacture and unsafe, unstable so that prices can be readily and "justifiably" manipulated.

I think the time for saying no to energy monopolies is now.

It's really just a matter of it being a little too late to take the high road on safe and clean energy alternatives. Therefore the oil wars will continue and the US will need to bring it's war in Iraq to fruition.

I've just touched on an answer here but I'm interested in continuing the discussion or debate, whichever you choose to make it.

 

[PLC1]

Who you callin' left!?



Nuclear is not an option. The people would reject it in their backyard even more than offshore oil.

And for a fraction of the research, lease, environmental impact report, litigation, appeals, permit, construction, operation, maintenance and dicey waste-disposal costs associated with nuclear....just a thumbnail of those costs, we could implement wide-scale solar and solar fueling stations for electric cars. Also wind in appropriate windy areas and of course geothermal all along the steaming vents of the Cascade, Eastern Sierra and Yellowstone regions. Just a thumbnail of those colossal costs of the dangerous and time-bomb, terrorist-target nuclear plants.

Why not take the easy and clean route? Why? Because energy has to be dicey, hard to manufacture and unsafe, unstable so that prices can be readily and "justifiably" manipulated.

I think the time for saying no to energy monopolies is now.

Nuclear power is the cheapest way to produce electricity, by quite a margin. Coal is second, but does cause some air quality issues.

The biggest problem with so called "alternative" energy, ie., wind, solar, etc., is the cost. If someone can figure out how to bring the price down, we'll see even more solar and wind generation than we do now.

 

[Sihouette]

When you say "cheap" do you mean after all the permitting, construction, implementation and disaster mitigation have all been paid for? In these times of terrorism, nuclear power might be the most expensive form of energy there is.

Economics is not a one-dimensional subject. It is multidimensional and even includes the dimension of time.

Half-life of radiation poisoning is more time than I want to bargain the costs against..

Mass producing solar components as demand goes up brings the prices down. This is true with any industry, anywhere, any time. Steam generation is a snap, easy and cheap. That's why it is my favorite safe alternate. Wind is good for windy areas but is fourth in my ranking: Geothermal, Solar, Hydro and Wind.

The question will be for the future: How bad would it be if a terrorist (foreign or domestic) struck a nuclear plant or a geothermal. One is radiation burns and for decades potentially cancer, death and suffering for possibly thousands. Another is some steam burns for a couple of workers.

So yeah, figure the costs..

 

[BigRob]

When you say "cheap" do you mean after all the permitting, construction, implementation and disaster mitigation have all been paid for? In these times of terrorism, nuclear power might be the most expensive form of energy there is.

Economics is not a one-dimensional subject. It is multidimensional and even includes the dimension of time.

Half-life of radiation poisoning is more time than I want to bargain the costs against..

Mass producing solar components as demand goes up brings the prices down. This is true with any industry, anywhere, any time. Steam generation is a snap, easy and cheap. That's why it is my favorite safe alternate. Wind is good for windy areas but is fourth in my ranking: Geothermal, Solar, Hydro and Wind.

The question will be for the future: How bad would it be if a terrorist (foreign or domestic) struck a nuclear plant or a geothermal. One is radiation burns and for decades potentially cancer, death and suffering for possibly thousands. Another is some steam burns for a couple of workers.

So yeah, figure the costs..

Didn't you hear, BigOil and Bush have already bribed and bought all forms of alternative energy imaginable and are now responsible for everything bad ever. I think Bush may have even caused the Bubonic Plague to clear up some room for BigOil. Doom, Gloom, and Choas! Your posts are so ridiculous.

 

[Sihouette]

You mistake me for a zealot. I don't care who owns or runs safe alternatives, as long as they run them at full tilt. In fact early on in this conversation I wondered aloud why BigOil didn't already transfer it's interests over to alternatives decades ago. The reason they haven't of course is that our commuters can "fuel" their batteries at home solar grids and thi$ of course cannot be manipulated or profited from so easily.

BigOil knows what alternatives mean. I'd counsel anyone with stock in BigOil to transfer it to companies who are already implementing alternatives. There's the future right there. You could stay invested in telegraph machines but I'd switch my money to cellphones if I were you..

 

[UShadItComing]

Didn't you hear, BigOil and Bush have already bribed and bought all forms of alternative energy imaginable and are now responsible for everything bad ever. I think Bush may have even caused the Bubonic Plague to clear up some room for BigOil. Doom, Gloom, and Choas! Your posts are so ridiculous.

Bush and his admin should be blamed for not being able to understand that the US needs to move away from the style of dog eat dog greedy capitalism it sees as the American way. This is going to happen of course because the US can't survive otherwise but it's going to be a slower process than it needed to be and it's going to cause a lot more pain than was necessary.

Indeed, now it is a question of whether or not the waking up which is needed has been left too long and it will force the US into a depression.

This situation will of course correct itself over time because the pendulum always swings. Americans being propagandized into believing in their system and themselves may prolong the agony.

Does the rest of the world care? We do because of the effects it will have on our own economies but the US hate which has been propagated by the Bush admin balances that equation. It is better that the US hurt more now and force the change sooner.

 

[BigRob]

Bush and his admin should be blamed for not being able to understand that the US needs to move away from the style of dog eat dog greedy capitalism it sees as the American way. This is going to happen of course because the US can't survive otherwise but it's going to be a slower process than it needed to be and it's going to cause a lot more pain than was necessary.

Bush and his administration should be blamed for furthering American ideals? Blamed for what?

I like the American form of Capitalism. I firmly believe that you get what you earn, and that you should be able to keep more of what you earn, what is wrong with that?

Indeed, now it is a question of whether or not the waking up which is needed has been left too long and it will force the US into a depression.

The US has one of the highest standards of living in the world. Our system has worked out quite well. You want everyone to be equal when simply put everyone is not equal. As for pushing us into a depression, we are not even in a recession, let alone a depression.

Does the rest of the world care? We do because of the effects it will have on our own economies but the US hate which has been propagated by the Bush admin balances that equation. It is better that the US hurt more now and force the change sooner.

You openly admit to wishing our economy harm, even though it drives yours down. A clear sign that you wish for all to be as miserable as you and join the have not crowd. People get what they earn and what they work for. If you dropped out of high school (which is free I might add) and did not learn to read and now can not get a good job, it is no one's fault but your own. Why should I be expected to pick up your slack?

 

[BigRob]

You mistake me for a zealot. I don't care who owns or runs safe alternatives, as long as they run them at full tilt. In fact early on in this conversation I wondered aloud why BigOil didn't already transfer it's interests over to alternatives decades ago.

Oil companies are heavily invested in alternative fuels as it is. While there are viable alternatives many of these are years away from commercial use and cost more than oil does. The reason that oil companies did not switch over to alternative fuels decades ago was because decades ago gas was $0.30 a gallon and there was no need to switch to anything. Added to that, decades ago technology was not in place to enable these switchovers.

BigOil knows what alternatives mean. I'd counsel anyone with stock in BigOil to transfer it to companies who are already implementing alternatives. There's the future right there. You could stay invested in telegraph machines but I'd switch my money to cellphones if I were you..

I have stock in oil companies and they have made me tons of money. Anyone who complains about the profits that "BigOil" makes should simply buy some of their stock, they are very shareholder friendly.

As for GM, the market for electric cars was just not there when they got out of it. It was not a bad decision at the time that it was made. You can short GM/Ford and make a bit of money here and there, but I agree longterm GM has a terrible business set up at the moment, I would not buy them.

 

[UShadItComing]

Bush and his administration should be blamed for furthering American ideals? Blamed for what?

If you read what you quoted me saying in your last post you will find the answer to that question. If you want to explore the idea a little further then just say so. I've told you that Will Hutton's, A Declaration of Interdependence' would be the quickest and easiest way to begin to understand but I'm also willing to share some of my own ideas is you want to drop the confrontational attitude and discuss the problems.

I like the American form of Capitalism. I firmly believe that you get what you earn, and that you should be able to keep more of what you earn, what is wrong with that?

If I were a wealthy American who benefits hugely from the system I would like the present form of capitalism too. But I would also be smart enough to understand that it is not sustainable and therefore needs to be reworked. I would like to offer you some ideas on how that can happen and still maintain a democratic system and a capitalist system.

THere is nothing wrong with keeping more of what you earn as long as the system which allows that is also providing for all it's citizens. If the system doesn't do that then enough people will demand change. It's as simple as that. Do you disagree with that? You shouldn't because you are now seeing a very real move to the left with Obama who is promising to fix the system for the less wealthy. The argument is not whether or not he will do that; at least for me it isn't. I don't know if he will be capable but I do know that his huge popularity is based on that sort of promise.

The US has one of the highest standards of living in the world. Our system has worked out quite well. You want everyone to be equal when simply put everyone is not equal. As for pushing us into a depression, we are not even in a recession, let alone a depression.

You're right! One of the highest standards of living in the world but do you know where you stand currently as compared to the world and do you know whether or not your relative position has declined in the past 7+ years while Bush as advanced the extremist capitalist agenda? Do you care? If it hasn't effected you then perhaps you don't. What you care about is only 1/300,000,000th. of what needs to be considered.

You openly admit to wishing our economy harm, even though it drives yours down.

I'm not all that interested in wishing your economy harm but I also know that the bottom must eventually be reached before you can rise from the ashes. The American people will take care of that so I needn't try to be actively involved.

A clear sign that you wish for all to be as miserable as you and join the have not crowd. People get what they earn and what they work for. If you dropped out of high school (which is free I might add) and did not learn to read and now can not get a good job, it is no one's fault but your own. Why should I be expected to pick up your slack?

Now that's where you begin to lose me. Are you talking about my country? If so you need to know that Canada's standard of living is higher than the US and if I'm not mistaken the US was higher when Bush took over 7+ years ago.

If you are talking about me personally then you are being foolish because you have no idea in the least of whether I am poor or wealthy. You lose credibility by supposing you do. In fact I am university educated and have been inependently wealthy for at least 10 years since I was 50. I achieved that in the field of electrical/instrumental by running a successful business and through hard work.

Now where would you like to go with this conversation? Would you like to investigate the problems with the US style of capitalism which must quite obviously exist and is being reflected in your dismal economy's performance?