vyo476
Well-Known Member
No no - the choice is to believe, whether it is entirely conscious or entirely unconscious. The choice to believe can't be made because they believe; that doesn't make sense. So why is the choice being made?
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Religion of Peace At It Again
- Thread starter USMC the Almighty
- Start date
No no - the choice is to believe, whether it is entirely conscious or entirely unconscious. The choice to believe can't be made because they believe; that doesn't make sense. So why is the choice being made?
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Ooooh you know more about the spirit of allah bouncing around in your own head. You seem to have little knowledge of the spirit of allah bouncing around the heads of Islamic fundamentalist and havent demonstrated ANY knowledge of Islamic doctrine.
Ooooh try and formulate an arguement, if you can. Otherwise, go away kid, you're starting to bother me.
????? I can learn something from the meaningless crap, like this post of yours, that is written here??? Youve got to be kidding.
H e l l I wish someone would even engage in a genuine debate of the topic. Only thing I can learn here is what you clowns think of me. Pretty much the extent of what Ive gotten from the peanut gallery.
Sounds to me like the logical flaws in your arguments mean that you dont want to debate the issue anymore.
A life time of religious indoctrination.
and the only thing Ive gotten from you is one straw man after another, pointing out the logical flaws in the arguement you imagined in your own head.
And it doesnt surprise me that you consider-
"Sounds like you are uneducated"
to be a debate of the issues.
vyo476
Well-Known Member
If "indoctrination" was the only motivator for accepting violent Islamic rhetoric than the whole thing would have fallen apart years ago. Indoctrinating only works so far - at some point each individual person has to have more than the indoctrination to keep fueling their desire to participate in a certain activity. It's true of all the "evil" groups throughout history.
Germans followed the Nazis not because they necessarily believed that all Jews were evil, but because the Nazis could get them out of economic stagnation.
Poor whites fought for the Confederacy as much because they themselves hated the idea of free, equal African Americans as opposed to going off to fight for "states' rights," the official reason given by Confederates.
Indoctrination only works so long as there are other base causes to draw on. You're going to have to do better.
Coyote
Well-Known Member
Here's what it boils down to - Readers Digest Version:
The Quran has a bunch of verses.
Among those verses are those promoting violence and bloodshed.
It also contains rules for the conduct of one's life and society as well as suggested punishments such as lots of stonings and killings for offenses against God.
The Bible has a bunch of verses.
Among those verses are those promoting violence and bloodshed.
It also contains rules for the conduct of one's life and society as well as suggested punishments such as lots of stonings and killings for offenses against God.
One group claims that the Islamic faith as a whole is flawed because the Quran contains verses promoting bloodshed in the name of God.
The same group denies that the Christian faith as a whole is flawed even thought the Bible contains verses promoting bloodshed in the name of God.
Logic is not achieved.
The Quran has a bunch of verses.
Among those verses are those promoting violence and bloodshed.
It also contains rules for the conduct of one's life and society as well as suggested punishments such as lots of stonings and killings for offenses against God.
The Bible has a bunch of verses.
Among those verses are those promoting violence and bloodshed.
It also contains rules for the conduct of one's life and society as well as suggested punishments such as lots of stonings and killings for offenses against God.
One group claims that the Islamic faith as a whole is flawed because the Quran contains verses promoting bloodshed in the name of God.
The same group denies that the Christian faith as a whole is flawed even thought the Bible contains verses promoting bloodshed in the name of God.
Logic is not achieved.
Coyote
Well-Known Member
Religion is nothing more then the language they are using to express these other issues. If they weren't using religion, it would be something else - the attacks would continue because that tactic works when you have a relatively powerless group fighting against a more powerful opponent. The whole "caliphate" thing is mostly hot air. Most of these people are fighting for much more personal and direct causes - old emnities and unresolved issues, ethnic divisions, anti-imperialism, and against the perceived agrression of the west stemming from generations of conquest and betrayal.
If you insist on looking at it as a problem of religion, consider this analogy.
You have a deep puncture wound in your arm. So you wipe the skin with alcohal, and put a bandaid on it.
The surface heals, but underneath all that dirt and infection deep inside starts to fester until you have a huge abscess. It bursts, and what do you do? Swab it with more alcohal and put another bandage on it. So the cycle continues because you are too stupid to look beneath the surface. Hopefully it won't become systemic.
The radicalization of Islam is a very real problem. On the surface it appears to be one of religion but beneath that is all the accumulated dirt that has never been addressed. The legacy of colonialism; a lack of democratic institutions and an overabundance of dictators; a high illiteracy rate and lack of education; a conflict between the values (both good and bad) of the West and traditional religious values; bias,both perceived and real against Islam and Arabs; economic disparities causing a huge gap between the poor and the rich; the unresolved Israeli/Palestinian issue and bias of the west towards Israel which provides an endless supply of fuel for terrorist recruitment; the war in Iraq which is perceived, lack of assimilation and an economic and class disparity among Islamic immigrants in Europe and on and on and on.
The easy "solution" is to blame it on religion. But the "easy" solution is seldom the right one nor the lasting one.
?????? Another one of your declarations of fact that have little to do with reality.
You constantly like to insert the word ONLY to create these strawman arguements to busy yourself with.
Like I said, Ill take the word of the Islamic fundamentalist as to what motivates them to engage in this worldwide campaign of Islamic terror before Ill take the word of those who feel compelled to defend them. To deflect attention from them. To deflect blame from them to what has been done to them by others.
Just as Christian doctrine motivates a worldwide campaign of missionaries preaching the word of Jesus, Islamic Doctrine motivates a worldwide campaign to establish the rule of the Islamic caliphate. Neither would exist without the doctrine.
?????? We see impoverished Palestinians living under occupation resorting to terror. We see wealthy, college educated Saudis living relative lives of luxury, resorting to terrorism. We see medical doctors living in Britain, far from any of this resorting to terrorism. No, while you are trying to clean up the surface wounds, the infection of Islam continues to fester under the surface.
And if you were right, the solution would be easy. I am right and the solutions may not be achievable in our or our childrens lifetime.
Coyote
Well-Known Member
What else can a desperate, disenfranchised, and hopeless people resort to? Not that I agree with the tactic, it's just facing a reality here.
Yes. And look at where they are coming from. A country that is a hereditary dictorship with some of the most repressive religious laws, very wealthy but few jobs, few social outlets - no one needs to work if they don't want to. An overabundance of young men with nothing to do and far too much testosterone and a restrictive society. The Saudi's have long been looking away at terrorism because it provides an external vent for their own disenfranchised and restless population who would otherwise be striking at the Saudi government. Again - not making excuses, simply stating reality.
And that is disengenius. They are not British. They immigrated. Where and from what did they come from? This is too current and there is not enough info yet to make any kind of judgements.
If you disregard the importance of the real problems - if you disregard history in your attempt demonize one faith - that solution may never be realized, and the problem only covered up to resurface again and again and again.
The only verse that seemed to directly do so was shown to be nothing but a parable about a King, no matter how hard sublime tried to misrepresent the meaning by adding "jesus Christ" to the verse. Anyone who simply had read the few verses before the selected passage would have seen it. Thats why he didnt provide a link to the passages. Pretty much demonstrating my point for us that one has to pervert the doctrine, intentionally twist its meaning to interpret it as promoting violence. And just as my interpretation of Islam is pretty much irrelevent, so to is your interpretaion of Christianity.
Ive provided probably provided 15 verses from the Koran with links to the text for the context it was within. No one has even tried to explain why "fight" "slay" "smite the necks" and "kill" mean anything other than exactly what they say.
Also along with these verses Ive provided the interpretations from 4 or 5 Islamic scholars that also interpret them to have the plain and ordinary meaning of the words. Ive provided the interpretaions of terrorists and the interpretations of ranting towell heads in Britain calling for the rule of America by Islam. They all follow the literal word of the koran.
Again, nobody has even offered even one writing from ANY source that interprets Christianity as you do.
ALL of you sit hear and spout off your personal thought with nothing from the world outside of your brains to support those thoughts within. I think yall are just a little bit to impressed with those thoughts bouncing around in your head.
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Coyote
Well-Known Member
I provided quotes showing a different interpretation of Islam then you provided.
History is proof that the bible passages have been interpreted as anything but peaceful.
I'm sorry you can't accept reality.
