Reason vs. Faith...

[bododie]

What do you define as reason, science? ideologies?

How much scientific knowledge, including medicine and the history of man and his origin on earth, based on carbon or other scientific testing has been proven wrong during your lifetime, or at least found lacking in all the pieces, after it was "published" and accepted as fact?

Faith must include reason. One must attempt to determine how facts proven by man relative to the complexity of the human body and especially the mind, answer the question: How was this possible?

I am not entirely ignorant of the sciences. I am not entirely ignorant of various faiths.
I have not found an acceptable explanation for the jump from animal mentality to that of mankind. TA DA! a cliff notes version on a relationship between reason and faith.

 

[numinus]

what are you asking? are you comparing faith to a political philosophy?

Correct.

One in particular comes to mind -- the political philosophy most familiar to americans - the lockean social contract.

It proceeds form the axiomatic statement that all men are created equal, and that their persons are imbued with certain inalienable rights.

No proof -- just a statement that is self-evident.

I know you can't be comparing faith to reason.

What is faith if not some form of intuitive reason?

 

[foggedinn]

Logic and reason are nice, but, they barely even touch the limits of what we are.

Most of the world's great thinkers (scientists, philosophers, etc.) have been men of faith. Both Newton and Einstein were deeply religious people. Both brilliant men, and both had no problem co-existing with both faith and reason.

I've read the Socratic dialoges of Plato and some of those goofy Germen philosophers. (Nietzche, Schopenhauer, etc.) I've also read the Psalms.

Plato engages ones reason and intellect, but that's it. There's nothing in his writings to satisfy the soul. The Psalms on the other hand, plumb the depth's of what we are.

There should be a certain amount of reason in ones faith, but, faith cannot be limited by the puny reasonings of man.

 

[Libsmasher]

The conflict between religion and reason has been continuous in the western world. In some places, notably the fundamentalist islamic areas of the middle east, reason is not allowed to trump religion.

 

[dahermit]

What is faith if not some form of intuitive reason?

I agree. That is why so many varied primitive people worshiped the sun. Their intuition told them that it was logical that the sun was god.

 

[bododie]

reason is not allowed to trump religion.

Has there been any reason based on a drop of human decency coming from fundamentalist Muslims that I missed?

 

[9sublime]

Reason and faith are about as far apart from each other as anything can get at times.

For example, please explain to me why I should have faith in the Holy Spirit when he makes someone bark like a dog at some crazy fundamentalist church, despite the fact there is no reason for the Holy Spirit to do anything like that.

 

[Dr.Who]

I agree. That is why so many varied primitive people worshiped the sun. Their intuition told them that it was logical that the sun was god.

A variety of people did and still do worship all sorts of inanimate objects ranging from the sun, the earth, the moon, trees, rivers, animals (though not technically inanimate I list them here), clay statues, fire, their own sexual organsm and today it seems more and more widely their cars, etc.

Perhaps there is something inside of man that tells him he needs to worship. Someone talked about a "god shaped hole" that is in all of us. And several others have discussed the longing we have to know God. The Bible says that we have been created with a knowlege of God stamped on our hearts.

To me it would seem that God intends us to have a longing to search for Him. If some people get sidetracked that is an error in need of remedy. But the error in it's application makes the intuition no more wrong.

 

[dahermit]

A variety of people did and still do worship all sorts of inanimate objects ranging from the sun, the earth, the moon, trees, rivers, animals (though not technically inanimate I list them here), clay statues, fire, their own sexual organsm and today it seems more and more widely their cars, etc.

Perhaps there is something inside of man that tells him he needs to worship. Someone talked about a "god shaped hole" that is in all of us. And several others have discussed the longing we have to know God. The Bible says that we have been created with a knowlege of God stamped on our hearts.

To me it would seem that God intends us to have a longing to search for Him. If some people get sidetracked that is an error in need of remedy. But the error in it's application makes the intuition no more wrong.

It does not seem logical that God would implant a "...longing to search for Him...", without some mechanism that would tell us when we have truely found him. The those who worship all other gods seem to have gotten the wrong message or they would not still be worshiping the sun, et. al.

It would seem more likely that belief in God, gods, etc., is an easy answer for people who cannot comprehend scientific reality.

Is it not likely that a strong belief in deities comes from sociological influences that constantly reinforce that erroneous belief? Christians going to church, Muslims praying many times a day? Constant reinforcement.

And why is the intuition (longing to search for Him) to look for God be manifest in me, and many others, as an intuitive feeling the God does not exist? Why have we no, "longing to search for Him..."?

 

[SW85]

Read the old classics of philosophy. They have established better than I could that the two are not only compatible but inseparable -- that you reason your way to faith.

 

[dahermit]

Read the old classics of philosophy. They have established better than I could that the two are not only compatible but inseparable -- that you reason your way to faith.

In the mean time, we should just take your word for it? But, that does not answer the question: I have faith that the sun is god because anyone can plainly see that it gives life and is powerful. Hail to the sun.

This is a forum...make your case, do not refer me to '...ancient volumes of forgotten lore..." (never more).

 

[bododie]

Hail to the sun.

How did the sun teach you to reason? All it does is make life grow, please explain any evidence that the sun reasons.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

How did the sun teach you to reason? All it does is make life grow, please explain any evidence that the sun reasons.

Please explain any evidence that god reasons.

 

[SW85]

In the mean time, we should just take your word for it?

No. That's why I told you to read instead of attempting to paraphrase their arguments myself. Again, they did it a lot better than I could hope to.

But, that does not answer the question: I have faith that the sun is god because anyone can plainly see that it gives life and is powerful. Hail to the sun.

This is a forum...make your case, do not refer me to '...ancient volumes of forgotten lore..." (never more).

First, who said I was here to make a case? Libsmasher was asking out of genuine interest, not to provoke debate. He wants answers, not arguments. I'm only telling him where he can find answers -- the writings of Aristotle, St. Thomas Aquinas, Kant, et al.

Second, if you think that argument is reasonable, why don't you have faith in it? The answer, I propose, is because you don't think it is reasonable. Reason is not a subjective thing or process; it is an objective reality. If you reason your way to an irrational conclusion, you haven't used your reason at all.

 

[dahermit]

If you reason your way to an irrational conclusion, you haven't used your reason at all.

That is why I am an atheist. Belief in God is irrational. Belief in the Christian God is also irrational. There is just as much "evidence" that Santa Clause, and the Easter Bunny exist...proved by the presents under the tree and the baskets of candy. Actually the presents and the candy constitute more proof than existence of God.

And no, faith and reason cannot peacefully co-exist. Atheists are frequently subject to discrimination. It seems that persons of faith feel threatened by free-thinkers and rationalize a multitude of ways to discriminate.

For instance, the issue of prayer in schools. It is frequently heard: "...they have kicked God out of School" or,"...children cannot pray in school...", when in reality, a person can pray silently at anytime, anywhere if they so wish. The motive then, for the pro-school prayer people is to have everyone pray, whether so inclined or not.