Prove that God doesn't exist.

[Dr.Who]

You call bull?

OK maybe I'm only hearing from the 35% that believe in new earth... I have no idea. 35% is still a lot of very confused people but that's their problem not mine.

Remember the 35% represents a percentage of the people on those websites not of all people in America or all Christians in America.

At least you know I'm not just making this stuff up off the top of my head. That's what I've been told by at least 2 or 3 super well known TV Evangelists... and I've heard it other places as well. Hell we have a CREATION MUSEUM right here in in Ohio. Little caveman kids playing with dinosaurs it's adorable. Dinosaurs walking two by two up the ramp getting on the Ark it's awe inspiring. Can't blame me for listening.

I am also not sure that I would want to be gathering my evidence from TV evangelists or a creation museum. They don't exactly have a track record for being credible or unbiased.

But that's fine let's go the other way then. Why do you suppose the jigsaw puzzel... just so we all get to guess and not know?

If ALL the answers were stated point blank what you take away from it would not be faith would it?

God gave us minds lets use them. Our minds would be kind of redundant if we never needed to figure anything out.

But I ask you. Which brings more glory to God? The person who would stand face to face before God at his last moment in life, sees His wonder and worships because he has no logical alternative? Or the one who experiences his whole life as a process, growing and changing and figuring out that God is wonderful and should be worshiped? Why else do we live at all if not for the process?

 

[samsara15]

One aspect you miss, Dr Who, I am a pantheist, not quite an atheist. From my POV, I am already part of God, along with everything else, albeit not the Christian version of God, not that being so means that much in such a case.

 

[Dr.Who]

One aspect you miss, Dr Who, I am a pantheist, not quite an atheist. From my POV, I am already part of God, along with everything else, albeit not the Christian version of God, not that being so means that much in such a case.

Allow me to restate.

What I should have said in post 1109 would be:


"Why should I judge a fundamentalist based on how any atheist paints him?"

 

[top gun]

Remember the 35% represents a percentage of the people on those websites not of all people in America or all Christians in America.

Still a lot of very confused people in direct conflict with their own religious sect.

I am also not sure that I would want to be gathering my evidence from TV evangelists or a creation museum. They don't exactly have a track record for being credible or unbiased.

Well ya got me there!!!

But then I know none of them to be credible or unbiased so that's not saying a whole lot is it?

If ALL the answers were stated point blank what you take away from it would not be faith would it?

God gave us minds lets use them. Our minds would be kind of redundant if we never needed to figure anything out.

The problem with that is consistency. God is said to be very exact and explicit. That's the whole deal about following the Bible. Look at the 10 Commandments, pretty darn explicit huh? Time it all started... not so much??? Big faith guessing game on that one???

But I ask you. Which brings more glory to God? The person who would stand face to face before God at his last moment in life, sees His wonder and worships because he has no logical alternative? Or the one who experiences his whole life as a process, growing and changing and figuring out that God is wonderful and should be worshiped? Why else do we live at all if not for the process?

Well first we have to believe in the fairy tale in the first place. But just guessing I'd say a true all knowing and loving God would understand he hadn't been clear and would be fair and forgiving.

 

[dahermit]

God gave us minds lets use them. Our minds would be kind of redundant if we never needed to figure anything out.

"God" gave 50% of humans an I.Q. of 100 or less. A person with such an I.Q. is not capable of figuring much of anything out. Also, from my observation, people between 100-120 are not critical thinkers. Therefore, the supposed message/road map to salvation must just be for the less than 30% of mankind that is intelligent enough to figure out that cryptic message in the Bible?

 

[samsara15]

Allow me to restate.

What I should have said in post 1109 would be:


"Why should I judge a fundamentalist based on how any atheist paints him?"

Your contempt for all other beliefs shows that you are closer connected to the fundamentalists than you might care to admit. That you include widely variant people in the same group demonstrates utter disdain for any variation of religious views other than your own. Perhaps you should look at what is taught by the Quakers and Unitarians.

 

[top gun]

"God" gave 50% of humans an I.Q. of 100 or less. A person with such an I.Q. is not capable of figuring much of anything out. Also, from my observation, people between 100-120 are not critical thinkers. Therefore, the supposed message/road map to salvation must just be for the less than 30% of mankind that is intelligent enough to figure out that cryptic message in the Bible?

I'll answer that one in advance dahermit... you know darn well there's a loophole...

People without the ability to understand will be given a free pass for they know not what they do. Only those who could understand but refuse to believe will be shunned.

It's like pleading insanity but in reverse. Instead of it keeping you out of jail it gets you into heaven.

Let me tell ya there's an unprovable answer for everything. I was in this big debate with this Creationism person once and I was sure I had him cornered.

I said even though it's a scientific fact the dinosaurs were extinct millions of years before man arrived on the seen... even if they weren't... think about it, think about the mere size and scope of all the dinosaurs we know to have existed on top of all the regular animals we also know of. There's no way 2 of all of these creatures could ever fit on a sea worthy boat that could have been constructed in that period.

Now about now you're thinking... makes sense, right?

The guy came straight back and said... I kid you not... the dinosaurs were dinosaur eggs!

Now what was I supposed to do with that?

 

[top gun]

Your contempt for all other beliefs shows that you are closer connected to the fundamentalists than you might care to admit. That you include widely variant people in the same group demonstrates utter disdain for any variation of religious views other than your own. Perhaps you should look at what is taught by the Quakers and Unitarians.

I fall into this debate a lot samsara now being agnostic.

I'm open to the idea of a God. I just don't see proof that any of the man made religions are the path to a God. That being the case I can't say I believe and be honest. Don't have a problem with any religions as long as they leave me out of it.

But this is what slays me. The hard Religious Right knowing that many people just want to be left alone and not be bothered by religious teachings or rules that they do not believe in are not allowed according to Religious Right to just ask for no religion to be taught in public places like schools or displayed in public areas because...

not having a religion is not, not having a religion at all.

If you have no religion then without you even knowing it you joined the church of Secular Humanism.

It's that "without you even knowing it" part that really confounds me.

 

[PLC1]

No I believe that the Mormon concept of Christ and God is so different from mine that they do not worship the same God.

If mine is the true God (it would be illogical for me to believe anything else) and they love and trust a different God then they do not love and trust the God that forgives.

I believe that to each Mormon God reveals enough about himself that they could believe if they wanted to and in spite of the false teaching they learn (every church teaches at least something that is false but who Christ is would be major enough that the mainstream churches all call Mormonism a cult). If they do not that is their choice.

After having read the description of your beliefs, that comes as a real surprise to me. What you have said fits Mormon theology very well.

Probably the biggest difference in the Mormon concept of god vs. other Christian religions is the idea of the godhead as three separate beings, rather than as three manifestations of the same being.

Many non Christians will go to hell. If the thing that makes them non-Christians causes them to reject God then it is assured.

While I have been talking about the chance to be saved that God offers to all I am not saying that all accept what has been offered. Sadly, even on the pews of many Christian churches there are many who are not saved.

The ability to recognize God and to respond in love has been offered to all but even with the word of God as a guide many do not take it.

Yet, there are many people who live and die without ever hearing about Christ or having a chance to accept or reject his teachings. If someone responds to the love of god, believing that god is Vishnu, does that count?

The bible makes it very clear that it is by grace alone. But grace comes to us through faith. And faith without works is not really faith it would be pretend faith. Faith also does not come except through hearing first. What many miss is that hearing the word of God as preached on Sunday is not the only way to hear it. I don't know how they miss it since the bible mentions that God reveals himself directly to all one way or another many times. Hearing the teachings of Christ would be helpful to many. I would add that when Abraham heard about God before Christ was crucified he heard the word of Christ. Following the word of Christ is a different matter altogether and I don't even think most Christians think that works are required. Though clearly there is a lot of confusion as they may state works are not required then they turn around and condemn someone based on works without knowing if that person is a believer.




It is the grace that saves but it is through faith which cannot be divorced from the natural outflow of faith which is works. The works do not save but if one does not love then how real is that faith?

That makes sense. Just declaring a belief doesn't mean much.

I don't know.

There are several passages that make it appear that we do not. But depending on the translation they may not explicitly state that, one needs to make an interpretation to come away with that view. For example, at one point there is a description of goats and sheep and the goats are not saved. Are the goats people who did not believe? This is the strongest passage I know of and yet it contains a metaphor. Another passage asks a rhetorical question. One must assume one knows how to answer the question to interpret the passage.

If there is no second chance after death I don't understand the reason why. Is it because with flesh one gets second chances but without flesh one does not? Angels who are spiritual that fall do not get a second chance. If that is the answer it is not given in the bible that I know of.

Personally I am not worried about second chances after death since I have responded to God in love now. And if God is deserving of love then obviously the best time to respond that way would be sooner rather than later just for its own sake.

Still,doesn't it make you wonder about the millions who die and have no chance? If Christ is the only way, as the Christian churches teach, and if there is no second chance, then many have no chance at all.

That is the predominant view by far.

That's what I thought.

 

[GenSeneca]

...people just want to be left alone and not be bothered by religious teachings or rules that they do not believe in...

Top Gun, I'm sorry for interrupting you on this topic but replace the word "religious" with "ideological" and you understand why we don't get along so well...

There should be a separation of 'economy and state', as well as a separation of 'earth and state', for the exact same reasons we need a separations of church and state... I just want to be left alone and I don't want to follow Progressive teachings or rules I don't believe in.

If you could understand and respect that, we would probably get along famously.

OK, sorry to take you off topic, you may continue with your regularly scheduled topic.

 

[Dr.Who]

Still a lot of very confused people in direct conflict with their own religious sect.[/COLOR]

Yep. Same is true for secular humanists and atheists and free thinkers as well.

The problem with that is consistency. God is said to be very exact and explicit. That's the whole deal about following the Bible. Look at the 10 Commandments, pretty darn explicit huh? Time it all started... not so much??? Big faith guessing game on that one???

Given how clear those ten are if you are a practicing Jew then you better obey them.


Well first we have to believe in the fairy tale in the first place. But just guessing I'd say a true all knowing and loving God would understand he hadn't been clear and would be fair and forgiving. [/QUOTE]

Consider every wrong thing you have ever done. Every selfish or harmful act, every malicious thought, every thing that was less than fully loving. If you are anything like me then it numbers into the tens of thousands. Surely god will be fair if you were not clear our were uncertain one some of them. But there only needs to be one in which you were very clearly aware of the wrong you were doing and you would be guilty. Assuming a just God, how will you be forgiven for the wrong you have knowingly done?

 

[Dr.Who]

"God" gave 50% of humans an I.Q. of 100 or less. A person with such an I.Q. is not capable of figuring much of anything out. Also, from my observation, people between 100-120 are not critical thinkers. Therefore, the supposed message/road map to salvation must just be for the less than 30% of mankind that is intelligent enough to figure out that cryptic message in the Bible?

If every cryptic message in the bible were removed what was left would be enough for a person to know right from wrong.

If the whole bible did not exist what can be seen in nature is enough to know right from wrong.

If nature were cryptic too what is impressed upon the heart is enough to know what is right and wrong.

If a person is mislead by people teaching false religion God has still provided each thinking person with enough information to know right from wrong and to be held accountable for what they choose to do wrong.

Toddlers know enough to know right from wrong. People who are mentally retarded also know enough. yes, below some age there are people who do not know and below some IQ there are people who do not know. They are not held accountable. But what about you? You are neither below the age of reason nor a *****.

 

[Dr.Who]

Your contempt for all other beliefs shows that you are closer connected to the fundamentalists than you might care to admit. That you include widely variant people in the same group demonstrates utter disdain for any variation of religious views other than your own. Perhaps you should look at what is taught by the Quakers and Unitarians.

Disagreement is not at all the same as contempt.

Do I agree with myself? Clearly it would be illogical to disagree with myself. So it is logical to believe my own religion is correct. When it is in contradiction with others one must be wrong and if I believe my own it must be the other. Do I still consider the possibility that I am wrong and the other right - sure. You must do the same thing. You must think your own ideas to be right and contradictory ideas to be wrong. and yet you are probably open minded enough to consider you can be wrong at times. I see no difference.

Now, about contempt. I would hope it is apparent that I strive to respect others even when I disagree with them. If I have wronged a group by being contemptuous please let me know where so I can correct my errors.

 

[Dr.Who]

[
Now what was I supposed to do with that? [/COLOR]

I suppose the advice about casting pearls before swine goes both ways. I would just state my case and walk away.

 

[Dr.Who]

Yet, there are many people who live and die without ever hearing about Christ or having a chance to accept or reject his teachings. If someone responds to the love of god, believing that god is Vishnu, does that count?

[]
Still,doesn't it make you wonder about the millions who die and have no chance? If Christ is the only way, as the Christian churches teach, and if there is no second chance, then many have no chance at all.

Everyone is shown enough to know or they would not be lawbreakers. One cannot break a law one does not know. Each of us has a conscience and if one is sentient enough to understand their own conscience then they have no excuse.

Consider the person who has heard the words from the bible all his life. He still probably misunderstands something about Christ. Would we say that Christ is the only way and since he does not understand Christ he has missed his chance? NO. consider now the person who has understood almost everything he has heard about Christ. Can he not be either held accountable or forgiven for what he has understood correctly? Sure. Perfection of understanding is not required. Now consider the person who has never heard a word about Christ but has been given a conscience by God. Does his conscience not convict him of wrongdoing? Sure. And when he responds to God in love and trust is he not forgiven of such wrongdoing? Sure again.