Prove that God doesn't exist.

[top gun]

Originally Posted by PLC1
Mormons don't dismiss evolution, nor do they believe that their underwear is "magic".

The purpose of the special underwear is two fold: It has symbols relating to faith in Christ and in the second coming, and it discourages immodest dress, as outer garments have to be sufficient to cover it.

Mormonism has to be the most misunderstood religion on the planet.

My ex-wife's mother was a converted Morman (nice lady).

And I don't know their stand on evolution but with all due respect if you look into the beginnings of the Mormon religion it is probably one of the most silly... and I'm not even getting into the whole polygamy thing. I watched a looong documentary on it trying to grip on it being family and all.

Joseph Smith, Jesus appeared in America, his many mystical visions, the whole finding the secret hidden records and Joseph began his translation.

The record was engraved upon the plates in "reformed Egyptian", a language Smith read by gazing into the "Urim and Thummim", the biblical "seers" delivered to him with the plates.

Personally I like the magic underwear thing... don't harsh my buzz on that!

I believe Mike Huckabee... THERE WAS MAGIC UNDERWEAR!!!

 

[PLC1]

My ex-wife's mother was a converted Morman (nice lady).

And I don't know their stand on evolution but with all due respect if you look into the beginnings of the Mormon religion it is probably one of the most silly... and I'm not even getting into the whole polygamy thing. I watched a looong documentary on it trying to grip on it being family and all.

Joseph Smith, Jesus appeared in America, his many mystical visions, the whole finding the secret hidden records and Joseph began his translation.

The record was engraved upon the plates in "reformed Egyptian", a language Smith read by gazing into the "Urim and Thummim", the biblical "seers" delivered to him with the plates.

Personally I like the magic underwear thing... don't harsh my buzz on that!

I believe Mike Huckabee... THERE WAS MAGIC UNDERWEAR!!!

You can believe that if you want to. You seem to believe a whole lot of things that are simply not true. Of course, Mark twain was right: "It's not so much what we don't know, as what we do know that ain't so."

As for Christ appearing in America, do you find that somehow less acceptable than the Fundies (i.e. Mike Huckabee) saying that people who died without believing in Christ go to Hell? Sorry about that, native Americans, Christ didn't come to your part of the Earth, so you fry.

 

[Pandora]

You can believe that if you want to. You seem to believe a whole lot of things that are simply not true. Of course, Mark twain was right: "It's not so much what we don't know, as what we do know that ain't so."

As for Christ appearing in America, do you find that somehow less acceptable than the Fundies (i.e. Mike Huckabee) saying that people who died without believing in Christ go to Hell? Sorry about that, native Americans, Christ didn't come to your part of the Earth, so you fry.

There was a stone found with the ten commandments written in Paleo-Hebrew here in America dated back from the time of King David’s son.

One of the native words for God is El, that is also a Hebrew word for God

I don’t believe in the whole Joseph Smith golden plate stuff but I do think that if not
Yeshua HaMashiach (AKA Jesus) himself visited, someone did in his name.
Mayan’s also have very interesting stories about a First father and a First son and a sacrifice that is interesting and reminds me much of the story of Yeshua HaMashiach.

 

[PLC1]

There was a stone found with the ten commandments written in Paleo-Hebrew here in America dated back from the time of King David’s son.

Really? Wow! I hadn't heard about that. Do you have a link I could use to check it out further?

 

[Pandora]

Really? Wow! I hadn't heard about that. Do you have a link I could use to check it out further?

I do but I can not get it for you. My computer crashed and I am using my daughters computer. If you google for it, I am sure you will find it. I can try to find too. I wish my computer did not break

 

[Pandora]

I did a quick search, here is a link to something that talks about it

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message816141/pg1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVHbvBiwmsk

here is another

I did not watch the video though

just do a google search for ten commandments in paleo hebrew found in new mexico or something like that and a lot of info will come up. You may like some sites better than others. I have good sites but they are on my other computer. Sorry!

 

[Dr.Who]

As for Christ appearing in America, do you find that somehow less acceptable than the Fundies (i.e. Mike Huckabee) saying that people who died without believing in Christ go to Hell? Sorry about that, native Americans, Christ didn't come to your part of the Earth, so you fry.

Huckabee said that? i would like to see the quote.

Nevertheless, if he said that he was speaking on his own and not consistently with what the bible says.

God reveals Himself to all and all have the opportunity to accept. That includes the hypothetical person stranded alone on an island since birth or even Native Americans.

 

[top gun]

You can believe that if you want to. You seem to believe a whole lot of things that are simply not true. Of course, Mark twain was right: "It's not so much what we don't know, as what we do know that ain't so."

As for Christ appearing in America, do you find that somehow less acceptable than the Fundies (i.e. Mike Huckabee) saying that people who died without believing in Christ go to Hell? Sorry about that, native Americans, Christ didn't come to your part of the Earth, so you fry.

Well I know what the documentary said and was asked to watch it BY MORMONS! And it was very nonsensical... the whole...

The record was engraved upon the plates in "reformed Egyptian", a language Smith read by gazing into the "Urim and Thummim", the biblical "seers" delivered to him with the plates.

PLEEEASE!

And as far as any more far fetched than most other religions... you already know what I belive... they're all self serving fables. And if someone is a Mormon they believe that fable like fact... Muslim their fable... Hindu their fable... Scientologist their fable... and so on...

Since I have no dog in this fight here's a good inter-league match, Christian vs Christian. Kind of a religious cage match...

 

[Dr.Who]

The record was engraved upon the plates in "reformed Egyptian", a language Smith read by gazing into the "Urim and Thummim", the biblical "seers" delivered to him with the plates.

PLEEEASE!

And as far as any more far fetched than most other religions... you already know what I belive... they're all self serving fables.

The problem with disbelieving something based on the idea that it is far-fetched is that in real life many far-fetched things are absolutely true.

Can matter be created from absolutely nothing? One of the basic laws of physics says no. But then the creation of the universe is thought to be exactly that - creation from nothing. In fact, cosmologists believe that matter is being created all the time.

Instead what one wants to do is look for contradictions within what is claimed, and then wait for answers with an open mind. if after examining the problems and the answers diligently one cannot reconcile the differences then one must conclude that to the best of ones knowledge the contradiction disproves the statement.

For example:

In the book Doctrine of Salvation written by Joseph Smith it says that Michael and Adam are the same person. (D & S 27:11)

But in Joseph Smiths diary he wrote that he saw three separate persons - Michael, Adam and Abraham. (Jan 21, 1836)

Now we wait for an answer or we look for it ourselves.

These are not necessarily the best contradictions one could find but I choose to post them because we were discussing things that Joseph Smith said.

 

[KingClovis]

This website might prove helpful in resolving this issue:

www.horstveckner.com

 

[top gun]

The problem with disbelieving something based on the idea that it is far-fetched is that in real life many far-fetched things are absolutely true.

Can matter be created from absolutely nothing? One of the basic laws of physics says no. But then the creation of the universe is thought to be exactly that - creation from nothing. In fact, cosmologists believe that matter is being created all the time.

Instead what one wants to do is look for contradictions within what is claimed, and then wait for answers with an open mind. if after examining the problems and the answers diligently one cannot reconcile the differences then one must conclude that to the best of ones knowledge the contradiction disproves the statement.

For example:

In the book Doctrine of Salvation written by Joseph Smith it says that Michael and Adam are the same person. (D & S 27:11)

But in Joseph Smiths diary he wrote that he saw three separate persons - Michael, Adam and Abraham. (Jan 21, 1836)

Now we wait for an answer or we look for it ourselves.

These are not necessarily the best contradictions one could find but I choose to post them because we were discussing things that Joseph Smith said.

I understand what you are saying.

That is a good thing to do and can produce some results.

But as I've said what I do is take a preponderance of all the evidence (not faith) evidence I can mass together and then try to match that up with the particular religious act or setting or declaration involved.

And so many times it either comes back to the great almost certain possibility of a natural occurrence or it is scientifically disprovable.

Then when that happens the old standbys come out... well that's why it requires faith... one cannot judge what God's time really ment... that sort of stuff.

If you just simply hold the text to it's word the contradictions are rampant. And that's the first thing a very religious person will say... The Bible is the word of God from that we must believe totally and cannot stray.

But I know the earth is not only 6 to 10 thousand years old. There are mountains of scientific evidence to disprove that. That's beyond ridiculous to me.

And then right on cue that's when the "Well it's God's time not man's time" logic comes out.

To which I say... But hey, you said this book was dead on accurate in everything else it says. I see no disclaimers here. And why the jigsaw puzzle in the first place. God created the whole universe and everything in it but couldn't get the explanation of the dates right... come on!

So while we may not understand everything scientific we are evolving and growing in scientific knowledge which is traceable, testable and verifiable. We now know the world isn't flat & what gravity is and how to carbon date an object.

On the other hand we have a story completely untestable and in real life application blatantly contradictory.

When the tornado hits New Orleans, Evangelists say... It was God smiting unholy people for an upcoming Gay Pride Parade.

And when it's the tornado that wipes out the whole trailer park of born again Christens or some innocent little baby, Evangelist say... Well God wanted these good Christian people by his side.

Just can't buy in on that. But I have no problem with those who choose to... as long as they don't infringe on my personal space or government.

If I were to lean into the God belief anymore I'd be more likely to go along with many of our Founding Fathers who were Deists and say God created everything... and left, end of story. But all these different man made religions, just can't see it being true... it's way too contaminated by man himself.

 

[Dr.Who]

If you just simply hold the text to it's word the contradictions are rampant. And that's the first thing a very religious person will say... The Bible is the word of God from that we must believe totally and cannot stray.

But I know the earth is not only 6 to 10 thousand years old. There are mountains of scientific evidence to disprove that. That's beyond ridiculous to me.

And then right on cue that's when the "Well it's God's time not man's time" logic comes out.

Did you just happen to pick a bad example or is your understanding of the bible really that poor?

The bible does not say that the earth is only some few thousand years old. some Bishop in the 4th century said that it said that.

I have reviewed the websites that list the numerous problems with the bible and they are more ridiculous that the odd ministers who claim that they know the will of God as it relates to various tornadoes.

When you take the best interpretation of the bible the book stands very well with a consistent possible message. One that still requires faith nevertheless. But then again even the most empirically minded belief system requires faith too.

 

[PLC1]

Huckabee said that? i would like to see the quote.

Nevertheless, if he said that he was speaking on his own and not consistently with what the bible says.

God reveals Himself to all and all have the opportunity to accept. That includes the hypothetical person stranded alone on an island since birth or even Native Americans.

I was thinking of Very Conservative Protestant Theologians:

I was making an assumption about Huckabee, which might not have been correct. Is he, or is he not a fundamentalist who espouses this belief?

Most Fundamentalists and many other Evangelicals continue the Restrictivist beliefs taught by traditional Christianity. They believe that each verse in the Bible is without error (as originally written). They are compelled to follow the writings of Paul and the author of the Gospel of John. Those authors appear to have written consistently that only believers reach Heaven. Non-believers will go to Hell.

I can't find it just now, but I have had discussions with fundies who agreed that Mahatma Ghandi (the most extreme case I could think of) would go to Hell for not being a Christian, but Charles Manson (again the most extreme case I could come up with) could go to Heaven if he developed a belief in Christ before he died.

 

[top gun]

Did you just happen to pick a bad example or is your understanding of the bible really that poor?

The bible does not say that the earth is only some few thousand years old. some Bishop in the 4th century said that it said that.

I have reviewed the websites that list the numerous problems with the bible and they are more ridiculous that the odd ministers who claim that they know the will of God as it relates to various tornadoes.

When you take the best interpretation of the bible the book stands very well with a consistent possible message. One that still requires faith nevertheless. But then again even the most empirically minded belief system requires faith too.

And hence the rub... all the different choices!

The mainstream Christian opinion is that the earth is only 6 to 10 thousand years old. I've personally heard it proselytized by to numerous to mention prominent Evangelists (biblical scholars are the ones that developed this time-line) and I've personally watched multiple religious documentaries that push that as the fact.

And again... why the riddle? Why wouldn't God just be crystal clear... I mean he's God. Explaining an exact date so everybody knew for sure when this whole thing started would only help to confirm & strengthen the people's faith... just seems very likely this would happen.

Is there someplace else that say something different or is it something completely unknown. OF COURSE IT IS! It's all made up! It's all a bunch of self serving fables to bolster a particular religious sect.

I could go to the Hindu religion who believe that you are reincarnated back to earth according to how well you led your past life and say they have the truth. It's all made up by where you were thousands of years ago.

Bad... come back as a rat

Good... come back as an eagle

This is just as believable if you don't have a preconceived mindset.

 

[PLC1]

The mainstream Christian opinion is that the earth is only 6 to 10 thousand years old. I've personally heard it proselytized by to numerous to mention prominent Evangelists (biblical scholars are the ones that developed this time-line) and I've personally watched multiple religious documentaries that push that as the fact.

That is not "mainstream Christian opinion." That is a fundamentalist view of the Bible as literal, historical truth. " Very conservative Protestant theologians is the way it was phrased in the link I provided.

The Catholics don't believe that, and they're pretty mainstream, aren't they?