OK, so it's been known for 400 years. Did it exist 500 years ago? Of course it did.
And no, we couldn't prove a negative.
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Prove that God doesn't exist.
- Thread starter Kelly
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OK, so it's been known for 400 years. Did it exist 500 years ago? Of course it did.
And no, we couldn't prove a negative.
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If you start assuming things exist that you cant prove exist you open yourself to madness now unicorns exist then flying pigs exist then fairies exist. It gets pretty absurd.
The original statement was that, if we can't prove that a thing exists, then it doesn't exist. The electricity example shows that something can, indeed, exist before its existence is proven. Does dark matter exist? Astronomers think so. Has it been proven? that depends on who you ask. Was it known to exist 20 years ago? If it wasn't known, did it exist, or did it spring into existence with its discovery? Now that it is thought to exist, does it possibly exist, or does it either exist or not?
The point is that the existence of anything does not depend on human knowledge of its existence.
It certainly does to our knowledge God does not exist. To our knoweledge electricity did not exist. Reality has and always will be based on the perspective of the individual.
Reality is based on the perspective of the individual? So, getting back to electricity, since the perspective of the individual back 500 years ago was that there was no such thing, then electricity didn't exist. Likewise, dark matter doesn't exist unless the individual believes that it does.
Which would mean that there is no reality outside of our perception, and if a tree falls in the forest, there is no sound.
Correct?
1)Electricity has been known about for longer than that. But prior to the discovert an individual would not have known of it so to them it would not have existed.
2) Where are you getting this from?
3) Yes to us there is no sound.
The ideas I've been posting about relate to metaphysics, and the question of whether a thing can be said to exist at all if it is not perceived by human beings. Your posts seem to indicate that you don't believe that it does, but that might be a wrong impression.
The possibility of unperceived existence
Metaphysical solipsism
Main article: Metaphysical solipsism
Of course, all of that is in the realm of philosophy, not science, and therefore not provable.
if your philosophy is that a thing does not exist unless perceived by humans, i.e., the tree falling with no one around to hear it does not make a sound, then god does not exist unless we can perceive him. Further electricity did not exist, nor did dark matter exist until they were discovered. If a thing exists independently of our perception, then both dark matter and electricity have always existed, and god could exist too.
Exactly. If you buy the philosophy that a thing only exists if we perceive it, how do we know that the tree fell, or that it made a noise? Should we see the fallen tree, we can infer that it fell, but, since we didn't hear the noise, then it didn't make any.
If you buy the philosophy that a thing exists outside of our perception of it, then we know that, having heard trees fall, they all make a sound whether we are there to hear them or not.
All that is, of course, a philosophical position. There is no right or wrong answer, here, no proof. Philosophers have been debating these things for centuries, after all, so we' re not likely to settle the matter definitively on an internet forum.
I dont like debating philosophy we can debate until our bones turn to dust and not get anywhere close to a conclusion. Agree to disagree?
Fair enough. There are philosophers who debated such questions, and their bones have turned to dust. Still, there are no conclusive answers, nor will there ever be.
Still, it is an interesting question.
pocketfullofshells
Well-Known Member
well the question about does it make a sound, is actually solved by science...its the did if fall part that would be hard to prove...as you just need to look at if sound is the vibrations sent out ( they are sent out regardless of being heard) of having ear drums to pick them up and hear them. of course then someone says well how do you know the sound waves are made if no one is there...and then you punch them in the mouth
well the question about does it make a sound, is actually solved by science...its the did if fall part that would be hard to prove...as you just need to look at if sound is the vibrations sent out ( they are sent out regardless of being heard) of having ear drums to pick them up and hear them. of course then someone says well how do you know the sound waves are made if no one is there...and then you punch them in the mouth
Now, there's an interesting debate technique.
Do you think electricity existed before humans discovered it?
pocketfullofshells
Well-Known Member
yes, I believe electricity existed since the big bang...maybe before
I don't think before the first known guy discovered it in Greek Times, it did not, until just a sec before he discovered it, it began.
could someone debate that? of course...but someone could debate that I am in fact realy G W Bush, and that I don't know it....its a dumb argument, but someone could make it .
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That's the trouble with philosophical debate: You get two sides, each of whom sees only their own point of view and doesn't understand the other one, and there aren't any convincing arguments to be used.
My point of view is that everything exists independent of whether we perceive it or not, that trees always make a sound when they fall, and that god exists whether or not we want to acknowledge that existence.
But, that's just me. There is no proof of any of that, and it could all be wrong. Maybe you don't exist, either, but are a figment of my imagination.
Or, you could be GW Bush in disguise.
