Oregon passes tax increases on corporations and the wealthy..

[dogtowner]

It was just a simple question and yes I know taxes are necessary but still would anyone really care as much as they do if they paid them or not. Look I'm of the side of not paying them in the current fashion however I would like to see a flat tax across the board that applies to everyone and not just a select few. Now is that going to happen I doubt it. I mean who would benefit from a flat tax? Surely not those who make up the tax laws and surely not those who prepare your taxes. What ever excuse anyone would use as to why we shouldn't have a flat tax they would get their point across and we'd still have the same problem that we do today with our tax laws and the loopholes along with them. As for spending well we all know how that goes and they'll be a lot of spending going on this year in the election I promise you that.

flat tax benefits the middle class which is why it can never happen.

fair tax retains the progressive nature of the current mess.

I care about taxes because its the liberal solution to every problem whether its the business of government or not.

campaign spending will surely be off the charts. is it any wonder media loves politics ?

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

I bumped this up for your viewing pleasure and I'm interested in what you would think about a flat tax option...and I took the liberty of including Ktucans post too, since it seemed to be of the same logic/theme...what do you think??? Anyone want to weigh in on this idea of a 'FLAT TAX FOR AMERICA'?

Originally Posted by GenSeneca That is the essence of Capitalism. Individuals living with the freedom to choose their associations in order to arrive at mutually beneficial agreements. That is precisely what I would like to see, volitional associations for mutual benefit, no individual or group being forced to sacrifice for the benefit of another individual or group.

That is essence of collectivism - Your philosophy. Individuals are not free to choose their association, they are forcably enslaved to one another, the use of force is employed to eliminate volitional associations from society in order to impose on everyone a collectivist morality of self sacrifice for the benefit (profit) of another. The collectivists are the "rapists", they use force against unarmed, helpless victims to make sure one individual or group benefits at the expense of another individual or group - There is nothing mutually beneficial about collectivism.

You asked me about my belief in a FLAT TAX {that survey on our political beliefs} and we never really got into a discussion about that specific issue. And while I'm not great about who's know more about anything else then anyone else about politics...my beliefs are my own and this is what I firmly believe:
I'm fortunate to live here in this great country of the USA and with that comes some responsibility to pay back for the protection that this country provides for me, infrastructure that I get, the utilities, the mail service, parks & open area recreation sights etc., etc., etc., and hopefully some serious health care reform for all of America.

So I should pay my federal government a flat fee from my wages earned for being able to consume those benefits that I take for granted. No tax filing, No IRS, No Uncle Sam giving me a rebate check at the end of the year...just tax me at the time of my payroll and I owe it, I pay and none of it gets returned because it get allocated to line items on the federal budget spread sheet that I get benefits from. Just as my local municipality has their tax, my local county has their tax and my state has their tax structure...NONE OF US SHOULD BE GETTING REFUNDS, PERIOD.

How will our Federal/State Government ever be able to have a balanced budget if they keep having to return money to residents...simply stated; can't balance a budget if you can ascertain the total dollars coming in are going to be there without the rebates/refunds going back out to certain qualifiers that file for all of those exemptions!

Just boggles my mind that our system has been set up that way. And when my husband gross income, our small business and my 2nd job pulled in the nice yearly sum of $100,000 - $200,000 we never asked for our refunds back...we always thought that our success as small business operators and Americans should be expected to pay back proportionally according to what we could afford. We should have a graduated scale of tax that are owed according to the gross or net income and then it done...no IRS, no big lobbyist of HR BLOCK.

But that's my dream...it would take an act of congress {pun intended} and there would be many kinks that would need to be worked out but it would simplify our taxes, allow our state & federal government to know exactly how much they could allocate per budget line item and keep this system flowing much better then it is currently IMHO WHEW...stepping down off my soap box and taking a break!

Ktucun Said: It was just a simple question and yes I know taxes are necessary but still would anyone really care as much as they do if they paid them or not. Look I'm of the side of not paying them in the current fashion however I would like to see a flat tax across the board that applies to everyone and not just a select few. Now is that going to happen I doubt it. I mean who would benefit from a flat tax? Surely not those who make up the tax laws and surely not those who prepare your taxes. What ever excuse anyone would use as to why we shouldn't have a flat tax they would get their point across and we'd still have the same problem that we do today with our tax laws and the loopholes along with them. As for spending well we all know how that goes and they'll be a lot of spending going on this year in the election I promise you that.

 

[dogtowner]

I bumped this up for your viewing pleasure and I'm interested in what you would think about a flat tax option...and I took the liberty of including Ktucans post too, since it seemed to be of the same logic/theme...what do you think??? Anyone want to weigh in on this idea of a 'FLAT TAX FOR AMERICA'?

what goes away if its implemented ?
how do you address those who howl about po folks ?

I'm good with it, it benefits me.

 

[GenSeneca]

I bumped this up for your viewing pleasure and I'm interested in what you would think about a flat tax option...and I took the liberty of including Ktucans post too, since it seemed to be of the same logic/theme...what do you think??? Anyone want to weigh in on this idea of a 'FLAT TAX FOR AMERICA'?

I think this topic deserves its very own thread.

I'm all for a flat tax, although I would prefer the fair tax without prebates. The flat tax wouldn't require a repeal of the 16th amendment but the fair tax would. If we implemented a fair tax without repealing the 16th, politicians would simply keep the income tax and have a brand new consumption tax on top of it. We would be taxed to make the money and taxed to spend it... Which is what they are already trying to do by creating a VAT tax.

 

[dogtowner]

I think this topic deserves its very own thread.

I'm all for a flat tax, although I would prefer the fair tax without prebates. The flat tax wouldn't require a repeal of the 16th amendment but the fair tax would. If we implemented a fair tax without repealing the 16th, politicians would simply keep the income tax and have a brand new consumption tax on top of it. We would be taxed to make the money and taxed to spend it... Which is what they are already trying to do by creating a VAT tax.

no repeal, no deal

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

what goes away if its implemented ?
how do you address those who howl about po folks ?

I'm good with it, it benefits me.

Ummmm...if you can't work then you're not taxed and the subsidies that your getting are being paid for out of those specific budgeted line items.

What goes away???...Well, to start with the huge lobbyist like HR Block, Hewlett Brown all the other tax preparers across America, then one of the largest employers of our federal government IRS...downsized to a manageable staff to handle the tax forms for the self employed/small business/corporations/disabled/retired {just grasping at numbers but roughly ½ of the current staff that are attached to the department of revenue - gone find another cushy government job to work at or retire }.

Subsidies such as: food stamps/meals on wheels/medicaid/medicare/ADC/HUD/Energy Assistance/Major Medical are still viable and functions as a subsidy for all our Americans citizens.

And before you get to excited about how it would benefit you and your taxes...my suggestion was a graduated sliding scales based upon your gross/net income so working out the starting point for a base tax at a base income will be a sticky wicket and how to divide those rates accordingly may be the straw that breaks the camels back!

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

I think this topic deserves its very own thread.

I'm all for a flat tax, although I would prefer the fair tax without prebates. The flat tax wouldn't require a repeal of the 16th amendment but the fair tax would. If we implemented a fair tax without repealing the 16th, politicians would simply keep the income tax and have a brand new consumption tax on top of it. We would be taxed to make the money and taxed to spend it... Which is what they are already trying to do by creating a VAT tax.

GOOD IDEA...I've sent my post to the mods to see if someone would move my post and the following replies to another topic/separate thread and then we'll resume this discussion...it's been on my mind for quite a few years and I'm excited to see if this is a manageable solution! So everyone take a pause for the cause and we'll resume shortly!

 

[dogtowner]

Ummmm...if you can't work then you're not taxed and the subsidies that your getting are being paid for out of those specific budgeted line items.

MANY people work but pay no income tax. Those people would begin to pay with a flat tax.

What goes away???...Well, to start with the huge lobbyist like HR Block, Hewlett Brown all the other tax preparers across America, then one of the largest employers of our federal government IRS...downsized to a manageable staff to handle the tax forms for the self employed/small business/corporations/disabled/retired {just grasping at numbers but roughly ½ of the current staff that are attached to the department of revenue - gone find another cushy government job to work at or retire }.

Strill have to have an IRS, still have to file, audiot, etc etc

Subsidies such as:

food stamps/meals on wheels/medicaid/medicare/ADC/HUD/Energy Assistance/Major Medical are still viable and functions as a subsidy for all our Americans citizens.

And before you get to excited about how it would benefit you and your taxes...my suggestion was a graduated sliding scales based upon your gross/net income so working out the starting point for a base tax at a base income will be a sticky wicket and how to divide those rates accordingly may be the straw that breaks the camels back!

thats why no flat tax suggests that. its not flat if you do that, its what we have now.

you want a fair tax.

 

[GenSeneca]

you want a fair tax.

Fair tax is a consumption tax, a sales tax, like the vat tax, what ASPCA is describing - a sliding scale tax on income - doesn't sound any different than the current progressive income tax.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Fair tax is a consumption tax, a sales tax, like the vat tax, what ASPCA is describing - a sliding scale tax on income - doesn't sound any different than the current progressive income tax.

No deductions allowed, no paper work would be required except for those that are self-employed...just as in FICA filing/with holding reports by the employers...the deduction happens at the time of payroll and is with held and sent onto the Federal Government...if you feel more comfortable calling it a 'Fair Tax' instead of a flat tax...fine the wording won't matter to me.

But if we start out asking everyone to pay their fair share shouldn't it be on a graduated scale proportionally increase as the salary's/gross income increases or not?

 

[GenSeneca]

if you feel more comfortable calling it a 'Fair Tax' instead of a flat tax...fine the wording won't matter to me.

I was trying to correct him because there is already a Fair Tax proposal and it's very different from what you're proposing.

The Flat Tax proposal calls for one standard flat rate.

If you're proposing a graduated tax that collects a higher percentage in relation to income, it's a progressive tax, it get progressively heavier as you earn more.

In terms of fairness, no I don't think progressive taxation is fair and I also don't believe anyone should be exempt from paying taxes. We should have one set rate that everyone has to pay - whether its a tax on income or on consumption - with no deductions or other special benefits. This way, politicians cannot use the tax code to carve out deals and bribe voters for support, this will eliminate the class warfare that's waged via the tax structure. Politicians would be unable to raise taxes without affecting everyone, so there would be much more thought given to raising taxes and government would have to carefully guard how the money already collected is spent.

 

[ktucan1]

We can go back and forth about how taxes should be collected but it won't do any good as long as the powers that be continue to spend money at an enormous rate. This spending is killing this country and if it keeps up there's no telling how long our economy will last.

 

[dogtowner]

Fair tax is a consumption tax, a sales tax, like the vat tax, what ASPCA is describing - a sliding scale tax on income - doesn't sound any different than the current progressive income tax.

it IS a consumption tax, its nothing like a VAT (multiple layering of tax at every stage of the product life cycle where value is added to each component of a product) and there is no sliding scale.

there is a pre-bate and subsidy for po folks intended to make it more acceptable to all.

but it removes all hidden taxes and makes you in charge of your tax liabilityt and makes the underworld that does not pay tax at all begin to do so.

transparency is the best part. no more 1000 ways for Congress to reach into your wallet, just one. it doesn't get more visible than that.

 

[dogtowner]

We can go back and forth about how taxes should be collected but it won't do any good as long as the powers that be continue to spend money at an enormous rate. This spending is killing this country and if it keeps up there's no telling how long our economy will last.

< 10 years maybe 5

hell, Bernake can't even raise the fed rate without putting us under TODAY.

 

[dogtowner]

No deductions allowed, no paper work would be required except for those that are self-employed...just as in FICA filing/with holding reports by the employers...the deduction happens at the time of payroll and is with held and sent onto the Federal Government...if you feel more comfortable calling it a 'Fair Tax' instead of a flat tax...fine the wording won't matter to me.

But if we start out asking everyone to pay their fair share shouldn't it be on a graduated scale proportionally increase as the salary's/gross income increases or not?

I dont call it anything, these are already defined things.
There has to be paperwork otherwise how do you know what its X% of ?

If its flat, its flat. Proportion makes no sense.

If its Fair tax, po folks are already to receive the same protection for any danger of paying taxes that they have today. No earned income tax credit though. They government will not pay you to be po.

Read up and pick one or just go out and make your own but you cannot just co-opt the names.