Oregon passes tax increases on corporations and the wealthy..

[Mare Tranquillity]

but they dont want a dime less than they had in the past and they refuse to go without raises.

There are some that dont feel that way, I do not and many I work with do not but we are the minority. I would rather see myself and all public workers get a pay cut than to see us tax more. We can suffer with the public sector people, why not... we are no better!

I really do hope the wealthy people leave the state and business relocates

There have been wage freezes in effect for quite a while at PERS, as I noted before, the PERS people have taken a 5% wage cut and had their insurance downsized dramatically. Postions are not being filled and work loads are doubling up. Your information is incorrect.

Much of Oregon's problem stems from poor management by the Legislature, they have bungled the money handling for years. The timber industry has cut most of the prime forests without replanting (until recently) so they engineered their own demise. Our coastal fisheries have been over-harvested just like fisheries everywhere else, the salmon have suffered from irrigation lowering stream flows, logging damaging spawning beds and silting up the rivers, dams have blocked the salmon migrations, and over-fishing in the ocean has hurt them too.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I don't understand the GenSeca folks at all. The idea that no one owes anybody anything is no way to run a civilization. If we don't owe it to each other to help each other, then how will we survive?

The GenSeca people seem to be social Darwinists to an extreme. Only the most rich, powerful, violent, unprincipled people have the right to survive. If you can't compete with the sharks, then you have no place on Earth and you should die quietly.

Do GenSeca people feel any obligation to their fellows at all? Would you join the military to defend your country? Would you join the Peace Corp to help others? If someone was hurt in a car accident would you stop to help?

When bigger sharks steal your pension money (like Enron did) will you just quietly starve? Or do you think that the rest of the people should do something besides walk around you as you lie on the sidewalk?

Human culture developed by people working together for their mutual benefit, and every culture that has relied on the strong raping the weak for profit has collapsed in short order.

 

[citizenzen]

Human culture developed by people working together for their mutual benefit...

Somehow that message has got lost along the way.

GenSen and others like him think they'll always be strong and never need to seek help from others.

Life has a way of humbling people foolish enough to believe that.

 

[Pandora]

As an Oregonian with a business and some knowledge of the PERS system and State employees, I voted for the tax increases. I know that all the PERS employees are being required to take furlough days off with no pay equal to 5% of their wages, all kinds of programs have been cut back or ended. Schools have been getting hit with losses every year--but we still get more students every year.

I fail to see how anyone can support Pentagon spending that is greater than what all the States spend on everything and ***** about tax money being spent here. How many billions are taken out of Oregon to pay for military expenditures every year? Why don't people complain about that? You're straining at gnats while swallowing camels.

My problem is targeting a group that will pay the bill for you then retro taxing them.

Also the 5 percent cut is not true, we got 3 furlo days and my pay check is higher now with the 3 days than it was before. We still got our 3 percent cola and step increase, and the stupidvisors got an 18 percent raise, usually they only get 8 but this was their bonus year I guess.

Art is really important but during hard times they could cut the millions and millions they force tax payers to give to the arts, they could stop giving away methedone (that actually got my niece addicted to heroin rather than the other way around)

There are tons of place they could cut spending in government without threatening first schools, police and jail. They do it this way because its a threat that works. Who will be scared to action if they threaten to cut sattelite tv to prisons, methedone and art?

Schools are better off than you think, we just spent half a million on security gates that are not secure and that was the intent. No one wanted them, no one needed them and if you ever would need them it would be to dangerous to use them. also in this crunch year several schools mine included got new paint jobs and very nice ext lighting to replace our old that worked but was not pretty.

 

[Pandora]

There have been wage freezes in effect for quite a while at PERS, as I noted before, the PERS people have taken a 5% wage cut and had their insurance downsized dramatically. Postions are not being filled and work loads are doubling up. Your information is incorrect.

Much of Oregon's problem stems from poor management by the Legislature, they have bungled the money handling for years. The timber industry has cut most of the prime forests without replanting (until recently) so they engineered their own demise. Our coastal fisheries have been over-harvested just like fisheries everywhere else, the salmon have suffered from irrigation lowering stream flows, logging damaging spawning beds and silting up the rivers, dams have blocked the salmon migrations, and over-fishing in the ocean has hurt them too.

I have PERS and none of what you say has happened to me or anyone else I know who has PERS.

Dont get me wrong Mare, you have a right to vote for it if you want and I had the right to vote against it.

I respect your rights and you bother me less since I am pretty sure you voted for 28 and 30.

I am most angry at those who voted against those two bills because it hit them and voted for this one because they figured some other sucker will pay for it.

those people make me so angry right now.

I should say thank you for the pay raise and the PERS bailout, but in 6 months we will be coming back wanting more because no matter what you give us, its never gonna be enough.

Just yesterday many people lost their jobs and the list started of businesses that will have to close due to the retrocative tax. Less people working is less money for the state........ that means the more they will want from you come July when they work next years numbers.

 

[Pandora]

I don't understand the GenSeca folks at all. The idea that no one owes anybody anything is no way to run a civilization. If we don't owe it to each other to help each other, then how will we survive?

The GenSeca people seem to be social Darwinists to an extreme. Only the most rich, powerful, violent, unprincipled people have the right to survive. If you can't compete with the sharks, then you have no place on Earth and you should die quietly.

Do GenSeca people feel any obligation to their fellows at all? Would you join the military to defend your country? Would you join the Peace Corp to help others? If someone was hurt in a car accident would you stop to help?

When bigger sharks steal your pension money (like Enron did) will you just quietly starve? Or do you think that the rest of the people should do something besides walk around you as you lie on the sidewalk?

Human culture developed by people working together for their mutual benefit, and every culture that has relied on the strong raping the weak for profit has collapsed in short order.

Mare, by chance will you be subjected to this retro tax or the over 150k tax?

 

[dogtowner]

Having a lot of money doesn't make one an "achiever", dog. Rich people don't drive the economy, the workers do that.

Let's all bear in mind the giant bailout of rich people, did they deserve that? Did that stimulate the economy? Are those AIG and Goldman Sachs people the "achievers" you admire?

While you're so busy watching out for the rights of the rich people, why don't you give some thought to the rights of the rest of us? Those bonuses should be taxed at 100% and money used to fund college educations, bridge rebuilding, drug treatment centers, or any of a 1000 other things that this country and its people need.

Who hires those workers ? And this is not a chicken / egg thing, the entrepanour comes first every time.

The bailouts were for companies that hire workers and as Obama pointed out last night, unemployment would have soared to double or more sans the bailouts.

As you can see with California, taxing the wealthy is self defeating. They do not have to accept it, they can and do take their bat and ball elsewhere where they are wanted.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

I don't understand the GenSeca folks at all. The idea that no one owes anybody anything is no way to run a civilization. If we don't owe it to each other to help each other, then how will we survive?

The GenSeca people seem to be social Darwinists to an extreme. Only the most rich, powerful, violent, unprincipled people have the right to survive. If you can't compete with the sharks, then you have no place on Earth and you should die quietly.

Do GenSeca people feel any obligation to their fellows at all? Would you join the military to defend your country? Would you join the Peace Corp to help others? If someone was hurt in a car accident would you stop to help?

When bigger sharks steal your pension money (like Enron did) will you just quietly starve? Or do you think that the rest of the people should do something besides walk around you as you lie on the sidewalk?

Human culture developed by people working together for their mutual benefit, and every culture that has relied on the strong raping the weak for profit has collapsed in short order.

Seems rather similar to the system that has supported and still exists in India; over there they call it the CAST system you are born into the trade/job/life that your family has had for the previous 18 generations before you. We just don't call it that here in our AMERICA, that would be unseemly
But to keep the worker 'B's trying to eek out an existence on the minimum wage while everything that the families have to pay to support our economic system has risen 3-4 times faster as the minimum wage and then deprive them of basic health care due to the out of proportion cost for health care just seems so SOCIALISTIC/IMPERIALISTIC to my ears. But what do I know...I'm just a worker 'B'!

The HAVES v HAVE NOTS and the 'HAVES' want to keep it that way

 

[dogtowner]

Seems rather similar to the system that has supported and still exists in India; over there they call it the CAST system you are born into the trade/job/life that your family has had for the previous 18 generations before you. We just don't call it that here in our AMERICA, that would be unseemly
But to keep the worker 'B's trying to eek out an existence on the minimum wage while everything that the families have to pay to support our economic system has risen 3-4 times faster as the minimum wage and then deprive them of basic health care due to the out of proportion cost for health care just seems so SOCIALISTIC/IMPERIALISTIC to my ears. But what do I know...I'm just a worker 'B'!

The HAVES v HAVE NOTS and the 'HAVES' want to keep it that way

mulatto son of a single mom is president of the United States. you really want to pretend we have a caste system here ? ask an Indian person about the difference.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

mulatto son of a single mom is president of the United States. you really want to pretend we have a caste system here ? ask an Indian person about the difference.

Read and study some of the writings/speeches/reasons behind Gandhi's movement to retake his country and you will learn loads of factual information

 

[dogtowner]

Read and study some of the writings/speeches/reasons behind Gandhi's movement to retake his country and you will learn loads of factual information

Been there, done that. And I've had many conversations with Indians now living here to get a personal look at the reality of how the legal elimination of that system has gone.

You are the one saying we have a caste system here which could not be further from the truth.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Been there, done that. And I've had many conversations with Indians now living here to get a personal look at the reality of how the legal elimination of that system has gone.

You are the one saying we have a caste system here which could not be further from the truth.

As I've needed to point out to you once again: my exact words were "Seems rather similar to the system that has supported and still exists in India" and since this is just an opinion based forum and that is my POV you don't have to agree with me but don't tell me what I said

And I too have had many a encounter with friends/family from India and they are fascinating to talk with...and the Cast system is still alive and well in India...sad but true.

But my point was {back to the topic} the HAVE's v HAVE NOTS around America seems to have carried over from the BLUE BLOODS that arrived via the special voyages out of Europe and it is ever prevalent and a strong force to deal with in our day-to-day life here for the WORKER 'B's

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

My problem is targeting a group that will pay the bill for you then retro taxing them.

Also the 5 percent cut is not true, we got 3 furlo days and my pay check is higher now with the 3 days than it was before. We still got our 3 percent cola and step increase, and the stupidvisors got an 18 percent raise, usually they only get 8 but this was their bonus year I guess.

I was refering to the people who work at PERS having to take the 5% cut by furlough days and they are the ones who have not received their cola or step increases either--I can't speak for the whole State system. The people at PERS had their insurance downsized too, did that happen to you?

 

[dogtowner]

As I've needed to point out to you once again: my exact words were "Seems rather similar to the system that has supported and still exists in India" and since this is just an opinion based forum and that is my POV you don't have to agree with me but don't tell me what I said

And I too have had many a encounter with friends/family from India and they are fascinating to talk with...and the Cast system is still alive and well in India...sad but true.

But my point was {back to the topic} the HAVE's v HAVE NOTS around America seems to have carried over from the BLUE BLOODS that arrived via the special voyages out of Europe and it is ever prevalent and a strong force to deal with in our day-to-day life here for the WORKER 'B's

There are haves and have nots everywhere and always will be due mainly to the variable nature of humans.

And the idea of haves has nothing to do with the caste system (not to be a spelling nazi as I'm horrible at it but there is an "e" on the end FYI). the closest America comes to that are the union shop states (as opposed to right to work states like mine) where a person is locked out of potential step up jobs via an arbitrary and closed system (not unlike the european model of craft guilds).

There is no end of examples of people breaking out of humble beginnings here and its like nowhere else on earth. Dont forget Bill Gates was a dropout. Ask any immigrant and a big reason they came here is our freedom and opportunity. The world has proven you wrong.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Mare, by chance will you be subjected to this retro tax or the over 150k tax?

The corporate tax will cost me, but the over 250k tax won't, I don't make a third of that.