Oregon passes tax increases on corporations and the wealthy..

[ktucan1]

Yes, it certainly can. States like California and Michigan have dug themselves into fiscal holes, the taxes they raise to get them out of the hole have driven wealthy people and businesses out of those states, reducing the states tax revenues further and have made the hole bigger. Those states are now looking to the federal government for bailouts.

Just as you should not be held financially responsible for your neighbors inability to balance his budget, financially sound states should not be financially responsible for covering the debts of other states.

So if Oregonians are gullible enough to follow the lead of Michigan in trying to tax and spend themselves into prosperity, then they alone should shoulder the burden of their states decisions and not pass on the burden to other states.

As long as the other states aren't forced to foot the bill for reconstructive surgery, then I have absolutely no problem with Oregon cutting of their nose to spite their face. If we have to bail out another state with our tax dollars, that is taxation without representation - we didn't get to vote in Oregon but we will be forced to bear the financial burden created by those who did.

I will once again clarify my stance. This is a state rights issue. Oregon has a right under the tenth amendment to pretty much do as it pleases as so long as abides by the Constitution. If they want to shoot themselves in the foot then let them. If they want to raise taxes on the rich and businesses then let them. I think its pretty damn stupid what they did but to each there own. Now you bring up on how other states MAY and I say MAY have to in the end help bailout states like California and Oregon but I doubt it. That would be the job of the federal government and we all seen how such a wonderful job they have done in that regards. People on this thread are getting mad at the voters for making a conscious decision and no one forced them to vote other wise, so as much as it may anger some of you that is what makes us a Democracy. Oregon voters have a voice and they expressed it.

 

[GenSeneca]

You don't own a home?

I do, its paid for, but I don't see the relevance. As I said, even if I had debt, I would consider it immoral for anyone but myself to be obligated to pay off my debt.

Quid pro quo

Do you think someone other than yourself is obligated to pay down your debt?

 

[ktucan1]

I do, its paid for, but I don't see the relevance. As I said, even if I had debt, I would consider it immoral for anyone but myself to be obligated to pay off my debt.

Quid pro quo

Do you think someone other than yourself is obligated to pay down your debt?

My question is why would you want someone else to pay down your debt. Hell that just means you owe that person money now. Can you just imagine if we had debtor's prison in this country? I mean just imagine the amount of people who would be locked up just because they couldn't pay their bills?

 

[GenSeneca]

I will once again clarify my stance. This is a state rights issue.

I don't disagree, Oregon has every right to do this or anything else the voters choose to do... However, their (state) rights end where my (state) rights begin.

So in the event of Oregon, or any other state, needing a bailout, they have no right to receive a bailout from the other states via the federal government.

 

[GenSeneca]

My question is why would you want someone else to pay down your debt.

You'll have to ask the collectivists that question. They believe its their right to force you to pay off their debts.

 

[Pandora]

The people in Oregon passed this measure for one reason, they were told and believed that the tax they would pass was going to effect the other guy and not themselves.

I am as disgusted in Oregonians as I have ever been.

A few years ago there was another measure to vote on (measure 28) but it would raise the tax on everyone to support the bloated government and the pay raises and PERS for those within the bloated government. It was soundly rejected.

Our congressmen and women decided we were very stupid voters and they had not educated us on the need for the tax to pass so they put a new measure up called measure 30, it was also soundly rejected.

We were told grandmothers would starve in the street, schools would run with 45 students in a class room because teachers would have to be let go, rapists would be let out of jail due to no funding.


The government found the money in a bank account they forgot they had after measure 30 was rejected and everything worked out ok. No one was cut and rapists did not roam the town and not even one grandmother died in the street.


This time they (the government) were smarter, they realized no one wanted to have their own taxes raised, but if asked to raise taxes on business and evil rich people they were apparently ok to do so.

Every single dime of the new tax will go only to bail out our PERS and make sure all the public employees get our raises. While people are being cut in hours, cut in wages or flat out laid off in the private sector, the number one priority of the state of Oregon is to make sure public employees get their raise and PERS.

Today alone over 100 people got their pink slips at various companies who will have to close due to the retroactive tax. I don’t even see how its constitutional to have a retroactive tax at all and sure not one that goes back to January of 2009.

In interviews today school superintendents in the Portland and Salem area said the millions their districts will receive will be helpful but it just wont be enough.

I have decided that public employees are more like vampires than people and will never be satisfied till they suck you dry.

Mostly I am disgusted with the people who voted for this because they felt someone else would be stuck with the bill but voted against tax increases when they thought it would effect them.



Another issue that is troublesome

Oregon’s vote by mail is corrupt. There are new reports of peoples votes not counting due to signatures not matching, oddly its those who voted no who are getting the notices from what I can tell. I can not confirm yet if it is mostly registered republicans who are getting the notice.

I got the notice every time I voted while I was a registered republican, so I re registered as a democrat and now my signature matches.

Also, there are over a hundred ballots missing in one county, over 15 hundred missing in another and there are other reports of ballot tampering, I personally have two ballots and even though I am a registered democrat I only voted with one.



Phil Knight is the single highest tax payer in the state of Oregon and the biggest employer as well as the biggest donator to public education and the U of O, he is considering leaving the state and I hope he does. This place deserves to be like Detroit. Anyone with more than 150k or a business should pack up and give Oregon the finger on their way out.


Well I feel better now after that rant

 

[ktucan1]

I don't disagree, Oregon has every right to do this or anything else the voters choose to do... However, their (state) rights end where my (state) rights begin.

So in the event of Oregon, or any other state, needing a bailout, they have no right to receive a bailout from the other states via the federal government.

Oh absolutely I agree with you 100%. If one state wants to crash and burn....Hey all I can say is have fun and don't come crying to us when it doesn't work out.

 

[ktucan1]

The people in Oregon passed this measure for one reason, they were told and believed that the tax they would pass was going to effect the other guy and not themselves.

I am as disgusted in Oregonians as I have ever been.

A few years ago there was another measure to vote on (measure 28) but it would raise the tax on everyone to support the bloated government and the pay raises and PERS for those within the bloated government. It was soundly rejected.

Our congressmen and women decided we were very stupid voters and they had not educated us on the need for the tax to pass so they put a new measure up called measure 30, it was also soundly rejected.

We were told grandmothers would starve in the street, schools would run with 45 students in a class room because teachers would have to be let go, rapists would be let out of jail due to no funding.


The government found the money in a bank account they forgot they had after measure 30 was rejected and everything worked out ok. No one was cut and rapists did not roam the town and not even one grandmother died in the street.


This time they (the government) were smarter, they realized no one wanted to have their own taxes raised, but if asked to raise taxes on business and evil rich people they were apparently ok to do so.

Every single dime of the new tax will go only to bail out our PERS and make sure all the public employees get our raises. While people are being cut in hours, cut in wages or flat out laid off in the private sector, the number one priority of the state of Oregon is to make sure public employees get their raise and PERS.

Today alone over 100 people got their pink slips at various companies who will have to close due to the retroactive tax. I don’t even see how its constitutional to have a retroactive tax at all and sure not one that goes back to January of 2009.

In interviews today school superintendents in the Portland and Salem area said the millions their districts will receive will be helpful but it just wont be enough.

I have decided that public employees are more like vampires than people and will never be satisfied till they suck you dry.

Mostly I am disgusted with the people who voted for this because they felt someone else would be stuck with the bill but voted against tax increases when they thought it would effect them.



Another issue that is troublesome

Oregon’s vote by mail is corrupt. There are new reports of peoples votes not counting due to signatures not matching, oddly its those who voted no who are getting the notices from what I can tell. I can not confirm yet if it is mostly registered republicans who are getting the notice.

I got the notice every time I voted while I was a registered republican, so I re registered as a democrat and now my signature matches.

Also, there are over a hundred ballots missing in one county, over 15 hundred missing in another and there are other reports of ballot tampering, I personally have two ballots and even though I am a registered democrat I only voted with one.



Phil Knight is the single highest tax payer in the state of Oregon and the biggest employer as well as the biggest donator to public education and the U of O, he is considering leaving the state and I hope he does. This place deserves to be like Detroit. Anyone with more than 150k or a business should pack up and give Oregon the finger on their way out.


Well I feel better now after that rant

I understand your anger but don't throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. Your blaming one set of individuals (Public Employees) for the will of the voters. Remember, no matter what sector you work in its hard for everyone at the moment and if you must get mad then get mad at those who voted for this. If public employees are vampires that you have described them to be, then maybe the general public at large in Oregon need to take a second look at how much the public sector is getting paid and to why? I mean the politicians in Oregon along with the voters have a dual obligation to make sure that those who are benefiting from these two propositions are doing whats right with the money that is going to come in no matter how ridiculous the money came about.

 

[Pandora]

I understand your anger but don't throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. Your blaming one set of individuals (Public Employees) for the will of the voters. Remember, no matter what sector you work in its hard for everyone at the moment and if you must get mad then get mad at those who voted for this. If public employees are vampires that you have described them to be, then maybe the general public at large in Oregon need to take a second look at how much the public sector is getting paid and to why? I mean the politicians in Oregon along with the voters have a dual obligation to make sure that those who are benefiting from these two propositions are doing whats right with the money that is going to come in no matter how ridiculous the money came about.

I am mad at the voters, well the voters who voted down 28 and 30 because it taxed them but have no problem voting for a retroactive tax to target someone else.

What I mean when I call them vampires is that they just dont undestand or care that the private sector is doing without or doing with less and they have no intention of doing the same. For the massave money the Oregon government is going to get and the school districts they still say it just isnt quite enough.

There are some important public employees, I understand that. Police exc. but when everyone is doing terrible the government should at least try to do the same but they dont want a dime less than they had in the past and they refuse to go without raises.

There are some that dont feel that way, I do not and many I work with do not but we are the minority. I would rather see myself and all public workers get a pay cut than to see us tax more. We can suffer with the public sector people, why not... we are no better!

I really do hope the wealthy people leave the state and business relocates

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Oh, sorry. I guess that DOES make it OK to take away people's property rights.

Or does it?

.

From somewhere the idea that a person deserves everything they can get has taken over our political viewpoint. It's just the newest version of Might is Right, and now the Supreme Court has given the mighty rich the right to buy government, control going to the highest bidder.

What's missing in this equation is the social contract, the idea that we are all in this together. How well do feudal societies work, Corn? You know, with the super rich owning everything and everyone else being their serfs.

One of the things that puzzles me is that when the majority of people vote to exclude gay people from getting equal rights, the Conservatives say, "It's the will of the people," but when the same people pass a tax on the rich--all of a sudden it's an issue personal freedom. Lying hypocrites. Siho is correct in this.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Thank you for revoking your orders to us, to "move on".



Back to the subject:
sihouette still seems unable to answer the question, though it is quite central to the issue of "taxing the rich" when the rich are already paying a hugely disproportionate share of the taxes.

Once again: Are the problems you listed, sufficient to justify taking away people's property rights?

The rich have a disproportionate amount of the wealth, so YES, we are justified in taking percentage of it for the good of the State. Bear in mind that we have conscripted young people to give their lives for the benefit of the rest of us, why should rich people not take their chances in the court of public opinion as we all do?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

only the more well to do use roads ?

as Cali has shown, if you overtax the achievers they go away.

people know when they are not welcome.

Having a lot of money doesn't make one an "achiever", dog. Rich people don't drive the economy, the workers do that.

Let's all bear in mind the giant bailout of rich people, did they deserve that? Did that stimulate the economy? Are those AIG and Goldman Sachs people the "achievers" you admire?

While you're so busy watching out for the rights of the rich people, why don't you give some thought to the rights of the rest of us? Those bonuses should be taxed at 100% and money used to fund college educations, bridge rebuilding, drug treatment centers, or any of a 1000 other things that this country and its people need.

 

[citizenzen]

I do, its paid for, but I don't see the relevance.

Just curious.

Do you think someone other than yourself is obligated to pay down your debt?

No. But you're talking to someone who's worked his whole life and never taken a dime of welfare from the government.

I think the main difference between you and me is that I don't mind paying taxes to help people less fortunate than myself... you seem to.

 

[ktucan1]

I am mad at the voters, well the voters who voted down 28 and 30 because it taxed them but have no problem voting for a retroactive tax to target someone else.

What I mean when I call them vampires is that they just dont undestand or care that the private sector is doing without or doing with less and they have no intention of doing the same. For the massave money the Oregon government is going to get and the school districts they still say it just isnt quite enough.

There are some important public employees, I understand that. Police exc. but when everyone is doing terrible the government should at least try to do the same but they dont want a dime less than they had in the past and they refuse to go without raises.

There are some that dont feel that way, I do not and many I work with do not but we are the minority. I would rather see myself and all public workers get a pay cut than to see us tax more. We can suffer with the public sector people, why not... we are no better!

I really do hope the wealthy people leave the state and business relocates

you know what Pandora Taxes suck we all know this. If there was a way we can go through life and not pay them then we would find a way to do it. Unfortunately they are in a sense a necessary evil. I would gladly take a pay cut too along with you since I work in the public sector as well. Look Oregon will be alright and this country will endure this hardship. No one man or government can destroy this country no matter what party affiliation or agenda they may push. We've survived a civil war, a depression, two world wars and a terrorist attack. Yet we're still here.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

The people in Oregon passed this measure for one reason, they were told and believed that the tax they would pass was going to effect the other guy and not themselves.

I am as disgusted in Oregonians as I have ever been.

A few years ago there was another measure to vote on (measure 28) but it would raise the tax on everyone to support the bloated government and the pay raises and PERS for those within the bloated government. It was soundly rejected.

Our congressmen and women decided we were very stupid voters and they had not educated us on the need for the tax to pass so they put a new measure up called measure 30, it was also soundly rejected.

We were told grandmothers would starve in the street, schools would run with 45 students in a class room because teachers would have to be let go, rapists would be let out of jail due to no funding.


The government found the money in a bank account they forgot they had after measure 30 was rejected and everything worked out ok. No one was cut and rapists did not roam the town and not even one grandmother died in the street.


This time they (the government) were smarter, they realized no one wanted to have their own taxes raised, but if asked to raise taxes on business and evil rich people they were apparently ok to do so.

Every single dime of the new tax will go only to bail out our PERS and make sure all the public employees get our raises. While people are being cut in hours, cut in wages or flat out laid off in the private sector, the number one priority of the state of Oregon is to make sure public employees get their raise and PERS.

Today alone over 100 people got their pink slips at various companies who will have to close due to the retroactive tax. I don’t even see how its constitutional to have a retroactive tax at all and sure not one that goes back to January of 2009.

In interviews today school superintendents in the Portland and Salem area said the millions their districts will receive will be helpful but it just wont be enough.

I have decided that public employees are more like vampires than people and will never be satisfied till they suck you dry.

Mostly I am disgusted with the people who voted for this because they felt someone else would be stuck with the bill but voted against tax increases when they thought it would effect them.



Another issue that is troublesome

Oregon’s vote by mail is corrupt. There are new reports of peoples votes not counting due to signatures not matching, oddly its those who voted no who are getting the notices from what I can tell. I can not confirm yet if it is mostly registered republicans who are getting the notice.

I got the notice every time I voted while I was a registered republican, so I re registered as a democrat and now my signature matches.

Also, there are over a hundred ballots missing in one county, over 15 hundred missing in another and there are other reports of ballot tampering, I personally have two ballots and even though I am a registered democrat I only voted with one.



Phil Knight is the single highest tax payer in the state of Oregon and the biggest employer as well as the biggest donator to public education and the U of O, he is considering leaving the state and I hope he does. This place deserves to be like Detroit. Anyone with more than 150k or a business should pack up and give Oregon the finger on their way out.
Well I feel better now after that rant

As an Oregonian with a business and some knowledge of the PERS system and State employees, I voted for the tax increases. I know that all the PERS employees are being required to take furlough days off with no pay equal to 5% of their wages, all kinds of programs have been cut back or ended. Schools have been getting hit with losses every year--but we still get more students every year.

I fail to see how anyone can support Pentagon spending that is greater than what all the States spend on everything and ***** about tax money being spent here. How many billions are taken out of Oregon to pay for military expenditures every year? Why don't people complain about that? You're straining at gnats while swallowing camels.