Oregon passes tax increases on corporations and the wealthy..

[GenSeneca]

Well, Social Security should be taken out, the money for paying that was supposed to be invested or banked to pay back upon retirement

That is not what happened. It is a giant Ponzi Scheme, it takes the wealth of people currently working and funnels that wealth to those who are retired - A redistribution of wealth.

What's weird to me is that all your arguments focus on denying power to the poor and to protecting the power of the wealthy. Why is that?

Pointing out what we spend on military vs the welfare state is denying power to the poor and protecting the power of the wealthy? In what way?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

That is like saying it was unethical to try to end slavery, or segregation, or give women and blacks the right to vote... If you are standing up for individual rights, then you are doing what is ethical, moral and just.

If the "minority" that you're concerned about "disenfranchising" want to continue the violation of rights, then they are the ones being unethical, immoral and unjust.

Look closely at the post you were commenting on... Democracy, allows the majority to violate the rights of the minority and a Republic does not. If a majority votes to protect individual rights, they are not violating the rights of the minority.

What you continually skip over so lightly is that there are competing rights and we as a nation have to come to grips with which rights take precedence. A woman's right to choose? A fetus' right to life? The right to life or the right to hoard while others starve? The right of law or the right of unlimitied personal freedom?

 

[GenSeneca]

I already did to the best of my ability. I believe that a person's right to life is a higher ethical good

What exactly do you see as someones right to life? That they should be provided with everything that is necessary to continue living, even if it comes at the expense of someone else?

 

[GenSeneca]

What you continually skip over so lightly is that there are competing rights and we as a nation have to come to grips with which rights take precedence. A woman's right to choose? A fetus' right to life? The right to life or the right to hoard while others starve? The right of law or the right of unlimitied personal freedom?

Rights are freedoms of action that do not impose obligations on others in order to be fulfilled.

 

[GenSeneca]

Brilliantly said.

I have a gift... I say that without the barest hint of braggadocio or conceit, and with what one could describe as deep humility.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Prove it.

It would have to be proved on an individual basis for each resource. Water, well even you will probably agree that there is enough fresh water for everyone to have enough to drink--not enough when the groundwater is being polluted with dumped chemicals or it is being used to raise vast quantities of food to be fed to animals to support the meat industry. A vegan requires about 1/5 of an acre to grow their food, a standard meat-eating American requires 6-7 acres and an equally large amount of water.

Many studies have been done showing there is enough food grown to feed everyone, but it is only the distribution systems--often based on money--that prevent adequate food for all.

Actually, I don't think anyone has ever seriously questioned if there is enough to feed, clothe, and house everyone, the question comes up when one tries to factor in cars, boats, mansions, militaries, and the like--all things that people don't need, they just WANT them.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

The use of force to end the violation of rights is the only justifiable use of force. You are not asking to end the violation of your rights, you are asking to be allowed to violate the rights of others.

No, I'm not. Ending the hoarding of someone so that others can live is simply ending the force that the hoarder has used to deprive others of their lives. You seem to feel somehow that having vast wealth is a right even in a world of adequate but finite resources. Why?

 

[GenSeneca]

Many studies have been done showing there is enough food grown to feed everyone, but it is only the distribution systems--often based on money--that prevent adequate food for all.

See if Captian Kirk will lend you use of the transporter... For that matter, just see if he can give us the plans to build the replicator.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

That is not what happened. It is a giant Ponzi Scheme, it takes the wealth of people currently working and funnels that wealth to those who are retired - A redistribution of wealth.

It wasn't designed that way, it was corrupted by greedy people in government who wanted to use the money. That isn't the fault of all those people who paid into it under the law and want to get what the government promised them.

Pointing out what we spend on military vs the welfare state is denying power to the poor and protecting the power of the wealthy? In what way?

It isn't the poor who benefit from the huge amounts spent on the military--it's the rich people who have the weapons contracts--can you say Blackwater? Boeing? McDonnel Douglas? Raytheon?

 

[Pandora]

I know that you believe that none of it goes to schools, but I have not seen that demonstrated, I see schools being built and repaired, I know people who have been hired to teach, I see the buses running every school day. The money comes from somewhere.

No, I am not saying it does not go to schools, I just do not think you realize where in the schools it goes to.

THe schools you see being built and repaired are done with bond money not the general tax money. It does go to hire teachers too AFTER the existing teachers and school employees get cost of living raises, step increase raises and other raises and their PERS. When we pass more taxes "for schools" in Oregon ( I can not speak for other states) it goes to raises for school empolyees, not for paper for kids, not for fieldtrips, not for sports, music exc. Just giving those currently employed more $$. Our stupidvisors all got an 18% raise, we got a 3% plus step increase (meaning another raise) while the private sector is suffering.

The bond money (through property taxes) that goes to fixing/adding on to schools... if you could see how much money goes to waste, its horrible and disgusting.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

What exactly do you see as someones right to life? That they should be provided with everything that is necessary to continue living, even if it comes at the expense of someone else?

Nope, the right to have acces to the things that will allow them to continue living. Not pricing water out of their reach as is being done in some South American cities, not being denied the right to a job because all of the jobs have been outsourced to third world countries. You know, the right to continue living.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Rights are freedoms of action that do not impose obligations on others in order to be fulfilled.

You should read my posts before responding to them. Rights DO compete. The right of action on a woman's part can destroy a fetal right to life, both of them cannot be honored equally. Many rights compete and you know it.

Or are you saying that if there are competing rights, that they are not "rights"? What would it be then?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

See if Captian Kirk will lend you use of the transporter... For that matter, just see if he can give us the plans to build the replicator.

We don't need those things, all we need are people willing to live ethical lives and not hoard at the expense of their fellows.

 

[GenSeneca]

It wasn't designed that way..

But that's the way it is. SS is a huge redistribution of wealth and you cannot argue that it is not.

It isn't the poor who benefit from the huge amounts spent on the military

Sure they do. For one, they don't pay taxes to support the military but they get all the benefits. Our military keeps them safe, it keeps our shipping lanes safe from pirates so they can get cheap foreign goods that are affordable, it creates jobs in both the public and private sector so the people who do pay taxes can have their wealth redistributed into social welfare programs. The poor definately do get benefits from the existence of our military.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

No, I am not saying it does not go to schools, I just do not think you realize where in the schools it goes to.

THe schools you see being built and repaired are done with bond money not the general tax money. It does go to hire teachers too AFTER the existing teachers and school employees get cost of living raises, step increase raises and other raises and their PERS. When we pass more taxes "for schools" in Oregon ( I can not speak for other states) it goes to raises for school empolyees, not for paper for kids, not for fieldtrips, not for sports, music exc. Just giving those currently employed more $$. Our stupidvisors all got an 18% raise, we got a 3% plus step increase (meaning another raise) while the private sector is suffering.

The bond money (through property taxes) that goes to fixing/adding on to schools... if you could see how much money goes to waste, its horrible and disgusting.

I don't know if what you say is true. I don't know anyone who has gotten an 18% raise. Of course there is a lot of waste, there always is because it's the nature of the beast. Can you point to any public or private institution where there isn't rampant waste? Once you get larger than 100 people I don't think you can find one. But our kids still need an education.