Oregon passes tax increases on corporations and the wealthy..

[GenSeneca]

Actually, you said something very different "in the beginning"... Your first three posts don't contain any mention of taxes as a violation of rights...

Once again you refuse to defend your own position and choose instead to attack mine...

As I have said from the begining, the fact that something is legal does not make it moral or just - GenSeneca

You are correct, that statement was not accurate because I did not make that statement at the very begining of the thread.

I should have said:

As I have said before, the fact that something is legal does not make it moral or just - GenSeneca

You still cannot argue against the truth of that statement.

Once again your only defense is the fallacy of Tu Quoque:

Tu Quoque is a very common fallacy in which one attempts to defend oneself or another from criticism by turning the critique back against the accuser. This is a classic Red Herring since whether the accuser is guilty of the same, or a similar, wrong is irrelevant to the truth of the original charge. However, as a diversionary tactic, Tu Quoque can be very effective, since the accuser is put on the defensive, and frequently feels compelled to defend against the accusation.

If a state wishes to violate the rights of some for the benefit of others, they can choose to do so but that doesn't make the violation of rights moral or just, only legal.

You still have no defense of your position as being moral or just, only legal.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

My guess, from what I've read mare, is that you are an elitist. Good old mare, standing up for those that can't help themselves. Yay you. Are you really?

Aren't you just ONE MORE person rallying a cry for laws based on what YOU think is good? Based on what you've said, you CAN'T be calling for the masses to rule.

Aren't you just ONE MORE minority trying to rally support for minority rule? You know you are, you have at least ONE belief (most likely many more) that you DON'T want the majority to have a say in.

Be honest; you DON'T believe in democracy right?

I do believe in democracy. What started this thread is that the people in Oregon elected representatives that promulgated a tax increase on families that had a net income over $250,000 and raised the corporate minimum from the 1931 level of $10 to $150, the people voted on it and it became law. That's how it's supposed to work, isn't it? Democracy and all that? But GenSeca objected to the use of force to "redistribute" the rich people's money to the rest of us.

I supported the tax increase, I don't make anywhere near a quarter of a mil but I do own a small corporation that will pay higher taxes now. I supported it because I can see that we need to invest more in our schools. Does that make me some kind of an elitist?

 

[GenSeneca]

I supported it because I can see that we need to invest more in our schools.

Prior to the new tax, what was stopping you from donating what you will now be paying in taxes to the school?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

This is just me spitballing; What would you guys list as the GOOD reasons for planetary wealth to be confined to an elite few. By the way; I feel the same smugness you guys are emulating towards whoever you are talking about. I feel confident you guys have a crappy answer for what I just asked, if you answer at all. I could make the question harder, but let's just wait and see your stab at the simple one.

Want me to answer for you? I can. (what I should do is go predict the answer somewhere else, hehe).

It would make the elite few really happy. Like J. Paul Getty said, "Being rich won't make you happy, but it will let you be miserable in a better part of town."

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Prior to the new tax, what was stopping you from donating what you will now be paying in taxes to the school?

I did and will continue to donate to the schools where I live, they have a very active fund drive program. Unfortunately I was unable to summon up enough money to fund all the schools in the State. Sorry.

 

[citizenzen]

Once again you refuse to defend your own position and choose instead to attack mine...

Once again you choose to ignore that I offer no defense. I support the current system.

It is written in the Constitution of the United States. It has proven its ability to sustain a society that transformed from agrarian, to industrial, to high tech. It has sustained us through times of war and peace and provided the support that helped America become one of the greatest civilizations in history.

If you want to define that as "immoral" that is your choice. And frankly, I find it highly entertaining to hear you parrot that over and over and over. Have you ever been diagnosed? I'm guessing its OCD. While it keeps me entertained I doubt it's served you well in your personal life. Ask one of your ex-wives. They'll tell you.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

You speak of Heaven, this isn't Heaven. You speak of an ideal society but you also assume it is full of ideal human beings which it IS NOT. You do, I'm sure, want to belive that all poor people are poor SIMPLY because they have been disadvantaged and forget some people REALLY ARE just lazy.

You want bill gates to feel sorry for nomads in the desert, irrigate it for them, send them money. These nomads Mare, CHOOSE to live in the desert. they were born human beings mare, same brain as you. Do you believe they just don't know there is an end to the desert and places where things actually grow? They choose to watch a child starve to death mare. I hate to tell you that because I know you don't want to believe it.

Please post sources for people wishing to see children starve and for which people are disadvataged and which are just lazy please.

It is a real comfort to many people to drive by the homelss and hungry and say, "It can't be helped, they choose to live that way, they aren't like us." And you call ME and elitist? I was very poor in the first part of my adult life, I've sat under bridges with homeless people, I've ridden on freight trains and been in hobo jungles, don't tell me about those people if you haven't done the same.

Like GenSeca, if you believe the problem cannot ever be solved, then you have no responsibility to even try.

 

[GenSeneca]

I did and will continue to donate to the schools where I live

I should have been more specific. You said the new taxes would not affect you as in individual because you don't make a quarter million a year. You said the taxes would affect your small corporation, so were you donating your corporate earnings to the school? Why don't you donate 100% of your corporate earnings to the school?

Unfortunately I was unable to summon up enough money to fund all the schools in the State. Sorry.

Are you suggesting that their needs outweighed your ability!?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

There is no strawman, you are using force. My saying that you are doing so at gunpoint is not literal, its figurative.

Silly me, you changed the word from "force" to "violence" which must have thrown me off.

We spent 3.8 million dollars a second on the welfare state in 2007, those are programs that forcably redistribute wealth. The votes of people like you have made that happen.

I would be interested in seeing what programs you include in this figure. And juxtapose it with the expenditure every second on the military.

That is correct.

You are not justified in reversing, i.e., changing the direction of the flow of funds to go from the top to the bottom.

You are only justified in using force to end the violation of rights that is taking place.

Okay.

 

[GenSeneca]

Like GenSeca, if you believe the problem cannot ever be solved, then you have no responsibility to even try.

Through force, cannot be solved through force. You conveniently leave that part of the equation off. You believe that it can be solved with force and I do not. Need will always exist and using force only makes the problem worse.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Egalitarianism, has two distinct definitions in modern English.

1. As a political doctrine that holds that all people should be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social, and civil rights

OR

2. As a social philosophy advocating the removal of economic inequalities among people.

Which one are you advocating for, the political or social?

It cannot be both.

The first precludes the possiblity of the second and the second violates the first.

The first.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I know I said I wasn't going to make it harder, and this IS NOT what I meant by harder; but what if 2,3,4,and 5 KILL 1? Would the 10,000 they would gain be MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL to 2,3,4, and 5? )

And I'm sure that they would give 1 a nice funeral.

 

[Pandora]

I did and will continue to donate to the schools where I live, they have a very active fund drive program. Unfortunately I was unable to summon up enough money to fund all the schools in the State. Sorry.

Mare, where exactly do you think the money goes when you vote in more money for "the schools"

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

As I have said from the begining, the fact that something is legal does not make it moral or just. You cannot defend your position on any ground other than being legal because the violation of rights is neither moral nor just.

So is it ethical for some to hoard and while others want? Is it ethical for us to put a hoarder's "right to hoard" above the very life of others? Are we not ethically bound to obey the greater right--the right to life over the right to acquire money and power?

 

[GenSeneca]

I would be interested in seeing what programs you include in this figure. And juxtapose it with the expenditure every second on the military.

Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security spending in 2007 was 3.8 million per second.

I did the military too... That is actually what made me interested in seeing what we spent on the welfare state. There was a claim that we spent $5,000 per second in Iraq, that claim was false. In order to get close to $5,000 per second, I had to include all defense spending, both wars, and all of the money we spend on our Veterans.

$5,000 per second on all military expenses.

$3.8 million per second on all entitlement programs.

Perhaps I will do another one and update the numbers to 2009 levels. I'm sure both will be considerably larger.