Obamabots, the Messiah ,

[BigRob]

our own intel knew it at that time, and Dick should have , as its likey the report would have gone to him, as he requested it be looking into.

So are you saying I am a liar now? I could pull a few witnesses who saw me yell at the TV when he said that. Also I could have the taps pulled from a PBS Frontline report that dealt with it, that was before Bush gave his state of the Union...

So yes, I guess I had better intel then Bush, the Brits and the Italians...

Not saying you are a liar, I dont know how you got to that, but I did not mean anything that way.

That said, part of the problem with the intelligence community is that when it gets gathered, it then gets looked at by one group who makes their assessment, then it repeats the process through many different groups. By the time it arrives at the top (Bush) sometimes it does not even look anything like the first report with the actual intelligence. Part of the problem is the bureaucratic nightmare that is the intelligence community.

Also, the CIA will cover every single scenario that they can think of and then make an assessment, but the decision is then left up to the President, who is often acting on not complete or bad intelligence. I am not sure this makes him a "liar".

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Not saying you are a liar, I dont know how you got to that, but I did not mean anything that way.

That said, part of the problem with the intelligence community is that when it gets gathered, it then gets looked at by one group who makes their assessment, then it repeats the process through many different groups. By the time it arrives at the top (Bush) sometimes it does not even look anything like the first report with the actual intelligence. Part of the problem is the bureaucratic nightmare that is the intelligence community.

Also, the CIA will cover every single scenario that they can think of and then make an assessment, but the decision is then left up to the President, who is often acting on not complete or bad intelligence. I am not sure this makes him a "liar".

like I said maybe he did believe it, but that does not make me feel better about it when I know about the report myself and he still believes it...and he is basing the justification for war in part on it. And like I said, at the least , while I cant say for sure he did, Dick should have had that report and been one of the first who got it. Read Joe Wilsons Account of the Report and how he ended up getting sent there...its a great book even with out the CIA Leak part, so worth a read ( he was in Iraq in the First gulf war trying to Help out from the US Embassy at the time

 

[GenSeneca]

A couple things Pocket,

Did you read my post on page one? I think it got buried before you saw it...

About Republicans being hypocrites: The Spotlight fallacy is committed when a person uncritically assumes that all members or cases of a certain class or type are like those that receive the most attention or coverage in the media.

And finally... if Bush's intel was so wrong, and you knew it - why are you not more critical of the Democrats who had his same info and came to the same conclusions and supported the war?

Intelligence is never a 100% sure thing and for Obama to say he opposed the war - When he DIDN'T have access to the same information that caused other Democrats to vote FOR the war - does not justify his opposition as being the better informed decision.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

A couple things Pocket,

Did you read my post on page one? I think it got buried before you saw it...

About Republicans being hypocrites: The Spotlight fallacy is committed when a person uncritically assumes that all members or cases of a certain class or type are like those that receive the most attention or coverage in the media.

And finally... if Bush's intel was so wrong, and you knew it - why are you not more critical of the Democrats who had his same info and came to the same conclusions and supported the war?

Intelligence is never a 100% sure thing and for Obama to say he opposed the war - When he DIDN'T have access to the same information that caused other Democrats to vote FOR the war - does not justify his opposition as being the better informed decision.

Because i was at the time? And Bush made the speech and me made the call for war, and the Republicans beat the drums for it, and refused to question it. Dems at least some questioned some of the intel and held back a bit and wanted Diploma's even they where dumb to believe the Bush really was going to try it. the Dems should not have given bush the power he did, but its still was Bush;s call so I hold him to it more then the Dems.

 

[GenSeneca]

Because i was at the time? And Bush made the speech and me made the call for war, and the Republicans beat the drums for it, and refused to question it. Dems at least some questioned some of the intel and held back a bit and wanted Diploma's even they where dumb to believe the Bush really was going to try it. the Dems should not have given bush the power he did, but its still was Bush;s call so I hold him to it more then the Dems.

The same is true for Republicans... there were SOME who raised questions but you don't remember those people... Ron Paul for example.

And you make the claim that Bush didn't want to explore diplomatic avenues to their full extent but thats just false...

Please, name specifically what Bush could have done diplomatically to get Saddam to follow the agreements he had signed onto and ignored for over a decade and under 2 presidents. What more could we have been done through diplomacy to get Saddam to comply with the UN Regulations?

Diplomacy is only respected if there is the possibility of force being used. If there never is any possibility of force, the threat of force is a hollow threat. Sanctions were a joke since Saddam had corrupted the system inside the UN and had nations like Germany and France involved in the oil for food scandal. Waiting for the UN to launch an invasion or hold Saddam accountable was never a threat to Saddam.

Finally... can you think of anything GOOD that came out of our invasion of Iraq? For instance, do you think Libya's decision to finally abide by UN Resolutions was inevitable and purely coincidental to our invasion? How about North Korea opening their nuclear program to UN inspectors? I'm not saying these things were necessarily WORTH the cost mind you... just that they happened and they happened for a reason. Ignoring them because of Iraq being an unpopular war seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

The same is true for Republicans... there were SOME who raised questions but you don't remember those people... Ron Paul for example.

And you make the claim that Bush didn't want to explore diplomatic avenues to their full extent but thats just false...

Please, name specifically what Bush could have done diplomatically to get Saddam to follow the agreements he had signed onto and ignored for over a decade and under 2 presidents. What more could we have been done through diplomacy to get Saddam to comply with the UN Regulations?

Diplomacy is only respected if there is the possibility of force being used. If there never is any possibility of force, the threat of force is a hollow threat. Sanctions were a joke since Saddam had corrupted the system inside the UN and had nations like Germany and France involved in the oil for food scandal. Waiting for the UN to launch an invasion or hold Saddam accountable was never a threat to Saddam.

Finally... can you think of anything GOOD that came out of our invasion of Iraq? For instance, do you think Libya's decision to finally abide by UN Resolutions was inevitable and purely coincidental to our invasion? How about North Korea opening their nuclear program to UN inspectors? I'm not saying these things were necessarily WORTH the cost mind you... just that they happened and they happened for a reason. Ignoring them because of Iraq being an unpopular war seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

well for one, since we did get inspectors in , and they found nothing...There was no reason to push for war...And 2nd I have more issue with how this war was executed and the lies that where used to get it, rather then actually going to war with Saddam and taking him out. I did not protest the war, I never even said i was against it, but I did from the start question the motives, the evidence and, pushed to talk about making sure we where ready for all the things that I saw as likely to happen...and I was dead on for the majority of that. the Insurgency, the attacks on Oil , the Iran Influence, the Huge cost, and that this would be a more bloody war then the white house picture they where trying to paint. I also took alot of flack from the right for even questioning these things, because i was not blindly beating the war drums, I was attacked for not being patriotic, supporting the troops, and being soft on Defense etc....All because I actually cared enough to make sure if we put our troops lives on the line that we knew what we where getting into and because I asked that our leaders not lie about the war.

There are good things that came of the war of course, but you can find good in just about anything. Nixon was a horrible Leader, but we got the EPA from it...Hitler was a horrible leader, but because of him the US is the worlds biggest supper power...Bush has been a horrible leader in my view, but he has helped push the left to fight back harder....

Also keep in mind what Bush wanted and what he did are not the same, Bush did not even want to go to the UN, he was forced to do it. If the left and a few on the Right ( like Powel) had not been pushing him we never would have even had the inspectors back..He wanted war, and I dont think he cared how he had to justify it.

 

[GenSeneca]

He wanted war, and I dont think he cared how he had to justify it.

Thats also true for the majority of the public at the time and the majority of our elected officials... Only once it became unpopular did Bush get scapegoated.

 

[Pandora]

Well I have found my very first Obama supporter who is not a robot.

Bill Maher

I am watching him on Larry King Live and he likes him ok and would rather him than McCain but is fustrated that he is going to center instead of standing his ground he stood on when he was running. Bill said the same thing about Kerry and AlGore but thought Obama was smarter than that. He still likes him and still wants him but he is not blindly following him. He also thought Hillary should have been the VP pick over Biden, and he had some nice things to say about Bill Clinton so he was probably a Hillary supporter to start with.

But it was refreshing to hear someone who is not just NOT blindly supporting Obama he was reasonable in how he sized up the D party.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Thats also true for the majority of the public at the time and the majority of our elected officials... Only once it became unpopular did Bush get scapegoated.

well the pubic also was believing that Iraq was behind Sept 11 ( almost like someone got that in there head) at a level of 70% at one point...Americans are really dumb sometimes. I know not a day goes bye that I don't marvel in just how dumb people can be. But the majority on teh farther left many in the middle and even a few on the Right ( more old school Conservitives I think like Pat Buchanen...all where yelling about this stuff from the start. those huge protests around the nation where not just for fun...But they where yelled at and told they did not know what they where talking about and Unamerican and what have you....now today the majority of Americans say it was not worth it...

And I can just say most everyone I know ( outside the Republicans I went to school with at the time) was against this war from the start saying it was a dumb idea and there was no need.maybe I just have the luck of being in the Midwest with a lot of friends who pay attention ( note not all agree , but all actually pay attention) to what is going on.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Well I have found my very first Obama supporter who is not a robot.

Bill Maher

I am watching him on Larry King Live and he likes him ok and would rather him than McCain but is fustrated that he is going to center instead of standing his ground he stood on when he was running. Bill said the same thing about Kerry and AlGore but thought Obama was smarter than that. He still likes him and still wants him but he is not blindly following him. He also thought Hillary should have been the VP pick over Biden, and he had some nice things to say about Bill Clinton so he was probably a Hillary supporter to start with.

But it was refreshing to hear someone who is not just NOT blindly supporting Obama he was reasonable in how he sized up the D party.

so I take it I must be a Blind Supporter then?

But I do love Bill Mahr...the First casulty of the PC police after Sept 11 , for something 100% true ...and he lost his show.

 

[Pandora]

so I take it I must be a Blind Supporter then?

But I do love Bill Mahr...the First casulty of the PC police after Sept 11 , for something 100% true ...and he lost his show.

Bill is the very first obama supporter that I have heard who actually says things he does not like about Obama. Real issues stuff.

I used to really like him but I have a hard time with his hate and disrespect for religion, I don’t care if he doesn’t believe but to push that non belief on others and insinuate they are stupid if they have faith in something higher than themselves bothers me.

I don’t agree with him on politics but I respect that he is able to openly be critical of obama or any dem really but especially obama. He had some critical things to say about other dems and the dem party in general. Not many do that, and so far none but him has said anything about Obama.

But again it looks like from what he said he was a Clinton supporter, and they seem to be the only ones with the nards to stand up to Obama or his mom in the dem party. And they are hated for it.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Bill is the very first obama supporter that I have heard who actually says things he does not like about Obama. Real issues stuff.

I used to really like him but I have a hard time with his hate and disrespect for religion, I don’t care if he doesn’t believe but to push that non belief on others and insinuate they are stupid if they have faith in something higher than themselves bothers me.

I don’t agree with him on politics but I respect that he is able to openly be critical of obama or any dem really but especially obama. He had some critical things to say about other dems and the dem party in general. Not many do that, and so far none but him has said anything about Obama.

But again it looks like from what he said he was a Clinton supporter, and they seem to be the only ones with the nards to stand up to Obama or his mom in the dem party. And they are hated for it.

Or the only ones that a bad lossers and cant stop crying about it....

and I have not always agreed with his Policies

 

[Pandora]

Or the only ones that a bad lossers and cant stop crying about it....

and I have not always agreed with his Policies

So he is crying about it if he has even the smallest negative thing to say about Obama ?


He said he liked him, he thought he was "hip" and young and energenic and blah blah

he just thought he was moving to far right and didnt look confident in what he says he believes, and that he needed to work on that because McCain looks so confident.


is that over the top in the Obama complaint department?

 

[pocketfullofshells]

So he is crying about it if he has even the smallest negative thing to say about Obama ?


He said he liked him, he thought he was "hip" and young and energenic and blah blah

he just thought he was moving to far right and didnt look confident in what he says he believes, and that he needed to work on that because McCain looks so confident.


is that over the top in the Obama complaint department?

No she just waited way to long to finaly bow out, its her supporters running around still mad she is no vp as if she earned the right to be VP...bye attacking him the most,,,,

And have you looked at McCain talk, its night and day when he talks about what he believes....and then talks about what he is just saying...he looks pained , ill, or like he needs to go to the bathroom when he gives those god awful lines he knows to be crap. That whole "thats not change we can belive in" thing for example...I haev never watched a man give a speach he seemed uneasy doing. LIke evry time he said it he was thinking, god this is a lame line....

 

[Pandora]

No she just waited way to long to finaly bow out, its her supporters running around still mad she is no vp as if she earned the right to be VP...bye attacking him the most,,,,

And have you looked at McCain talk, its night and day when he talks about what he believes....and then talks about what he is just saying...he looks pained , ill, or like he needs to go to the bathroom when he gives those god awful lines he knows to be crap. That whole "thats not change we can belive in" thing for example...I haev never watched a man give a speach he seemed uneasy doing. LIke evry time he said it he was thinking, god this is a lame line....

I am totally lost by your reply, we were talking about bill mahr and you replied with this, I dont know what you meant