Obama wants to legitimize the 20 million illegal aliens - do you agree?

[Libsmasher]

Fine; how do you respond to allegations that granting citizenship to already present illegals legitimatizes illegal immigration, encouraging it amongst other would-be illegal immigrants? The historical implications of the last amnesty, which increased illegal immigration from a trickle to a relative flood, seem to verify this theory.

What do you mean it's "fine" if he tries to call people who are here illegally citizens? Is it "fine" if I call a bank robber a customer withdrawing money??

 

[PLC1]

Anyone who thinks that illegal immigration should be condoned needs to talk to the parents of Jamiel Shaw.

A police department’s don’t-ask-don’t-tell immigration policy allowed a notorious gang member to murder a high school football star just one day after the illegal alien completed a jail sentence for a previous felony.

The Los Angeles Police Department has for decades banned officers from inquiring about a suspects’ immigration status and the negligent policy allowed a violent gang banger to gun down a star prep running back heavily recruited by several top colleges.

Seventeen year-old Jamiel Shaw, the son of an Army sergeant serving in Iraq, was a league most valuable player with a bright future. Had the cops identified the gang member as an illegal immigrant during his previous encounters with the law, he would have been deported and Shaw would have gone on to play college football.

If we had a rational immigration policy, this particular illegal would have been deported and would be serving time in a Mexican jail, where he belongs.

If we had a rational immigration policy, a reasonable number of people who want to work for a better life would be allowed to come here, and wouldn't have to live in the shadows in fear of deportation. Gang bangers would be told they are not welcome, as we have plenty home grown ones already here.

If we had a rational immigration policy and a secure border, Jamiel Shaw would still be alive and playing football.


Read the rest of the story here: http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/illegal-immigrant-gang-banger-kills-teen-jock

 

[Libsmasher]

Hispanics run los angeles - the mayor is hispanic, the gangs are hispanic, and the voters, many of them instantly minted citizens and their descendants and imported relatives from the last illegal wave in 1986 are hispanic. They've discovered the opportunity of a millenium - a big powerful country that is allowing itself simply to be taken over by people who illegally cross the border, are turned into citizens by a few people who are acting based on their narrow interests, viz democrat party leaders and a few corporate interests. These people are largely concentrated in a few southwestern states, which they in not too many years will be able to take over politically, controlling not only those states, but influencing US policy more and more pro illegal alien, in a kind of death spiral. It's amazing: this country has fought so many would be invaders and won, and now it's going to taken over, eventually, without a fight, because of the stupidity of a handful of political and corporate leaders, and a lot of duped averge americans who live in places like minnesota and have no clue that their country is turning into mexico.

 

[9sublime]

Your country was built upon immigration, and since the start of time immigration has flowed around the world, forming it for what it is. You will never be able to stop it, however hard you try - its vital to the economy to an extent, but it can also kill it.

 

[jff.law]

A wall or fence on the border will have a minimal effect on the tide of illegal immigrants entering the US from Mexico, walls and fences have never been a deterrent to people who have wanted to cross borders. The Berlin wall and even the Great wall of China did not prevent crossings or invasions from other countries.

Illegal immigration is certainly a problem in the US and even other countries are having problems with legal immigrants. Lower classes of workers have seen an effective reduction of real wages over the last 20 years, in part because salaries and wages have not kept up with inflation, but also because illegal immigrants are willing to work for less then an American for the same service.
The government is not unhappy about this because they get income taxes from people who use false SS numbers, and never file tax returns. They also contribute to the economy as a whole.
Its estimated that Houston Texas has one million Illegals, and cities that have "sanctuary" policies have similar populations who make up a large part of the economies. Eliminating these people would effect nearly all aspects of the economy, possibly in a way that would positively effect Americans, and negativity effect the businesses in these cities.
Rents would go down as thousands of apartments suddenly came on the market, salaries and wages for Americans would grow as the result of positions opening, and competitions increased for jobs.
America would be better off if illegal immigration was curtailed, and illegals here were removed from the picture.

 

[PLC1]

Your country was built upon immigration, and since the start of time immigration has flowed around the world, forming it for what it is. You will never be able to stop it, however hard you try - its vital to the economy to an extent, but it can also kill it.

We're not advocating an end to immigration, just to illegal immigration.

We need to determine who can come here and in what numbers, not just allow anyone to cross the border and stay.

 

[Libsmasher]

Your country was built upon immigration, and since the start of time immigration has flowed around the world, forming it for what it is. You will never be able to stop it, however hard you try - its vital to the economy to an extent, but it can also kill it.

My country was built upon LEGAL immigration, the ILLEGAL immigration could be stopped with hardly trying, and far from being "vital" to the US, the LAST thing our economy needs is to have tens of millions of mexico's poor illiterate peasants dumped on us, instead of the high quality immigrants needed to compete in the new global economy.

 

[Libsmasher]

A wall or fence on the border will have a minimal effect on the tide of illegal immigrants entering the US from Mexico, walls and fences have never been a deterrent to people who have wanted to cross borders. The Berlin wall and even the Great wall of China did not prevent crossings or invasions from other countries.

A border wall is a secondary thing - the MAIN thing is to take away the jobs, and also to correct the "anchor baby" erroneous jurisprudence.

Illegal immigration is certainly a problem in the US and even other countries are having problems with legal immigrants. Lower classes of workers have seen an effective reduction of real wages over the last 20 years, in part because salaries and wages have not kept up with inflation, but also because illegal immigrants are willing to work for less then an American for the same service.

The lower salaries are a distraction from the total impact: the illegal aliens scam the health care system causing increases in health care cost and insurance premiums. They drive without insurance and skip back to mexico when they cause accidents, raising auto insurance premiums. Their children are educated in our government schools, but they don't pay the supporting property taxes. They are a drag on our society in many ways - the comprise 25% of california's prison population. The government allows the anchor baby's illegal alien parent (the one who snuck across the border to give birth free in a US hospital) permission to stay as the parent of an "american citizen", making her elligble for a whole raft of free, paid for by taxpayers, social services including medicaid, food stamps, housing, and free legal services. The net effect is to enrich a few employers, while creating huge social costs for everyone else.

The government is not unhappy about this because they get income taxes from people who use false SS numbers, and never file tax returns. They also contribute to the economy as a whole.
Its estimated that Houston Texas has one million Illegals, and cities that have "sanctuary" policies have similar populations who make up a large part of the economies. Eliminating these people would effect nearly all aspects of the economy, possibly in a way that would positively effect Americans, and negativity effect the businesses in these cities.

Such economic effect disruption would never happenif they hired american workers in the first place, instead of breaking the law. If drug-dealing diasappeared tomorrow from american cities, it would have substantial economic impacts, but is an economic impact a good reason for breaking the law? The people in Houston need to find LEGAL ways to keep their economy going. Is making a living legally beyond their capabilities??

Rents would go down as thousands of apartments suddenly came on the market, salaries and wages for Americans would grow as the result of positions opening, and competitions increased for jobs.
America would be better off if illegal immigration was curtailed, and illegals here were removed from the picture.

Agreed.

 

[Nerv14]

My country was built upon LEGAL immigration, the ILLEGAL immigration could be stopped with hardly trying, and far from being "vital" to the US, the LAST thing our economy needs is to have tens of millions of mexico's poor illiterate peasants dumped on us, instead of the high quality immigrants needed to compete in the new global economy.

No one wants illegal immigrants, but with millions in our borders there is not much that we can do to get those current people out. Even with precautions to prevent them from getting jobs and other restrictions they still are going to stay because poverty in America is still better than their lives in other countries.

After a strong border against illegal immigrants is built the illegal immigrants should be legalized to make them pay taxes and not cause unfair competition by being able to be payed for less than the mininum wage. However, it is important that we can defend our borders before the legalization is done because that will obviously be a huge incentive for even more people to try and get to America illegally. That is where Bill Clinton failed, he legalized immigrants but didn't prevent more from entering this country.

Unless you want to keep the current illegal immigrants illegal to satisfy a desire for law and order, there is no practical way of getting those people out of the country, so the only way to fix the problem is to legalize them.

 

[Dr.Who]

Hispanics run los angeles - the mayor is hispanic, the gangs are hispanic, and the voters, many of them instantly minted citizens and their descendants and imported relatives from the last illegal wave in 1986 are hispanic. They've discovered the opportunity of a millenium - a big powerful country that is allowing itself simply to be taken over by people who illegally cross the border, are turned into citizens by a few people who are acting based on their narrow interests, viz democrat party leaders and a few corporate interests. These people are largely concentrated in a few southwestern states, which they in not too many years will be able to take over politically, controlling not only those states, but influencing US policy more and more pro illegal alien, in a kind of death spiral. It's amazing: this country has fought so many would be invaders and won, and now it's going to taken over, eventually, without a fight, because of the stupidity of a handful of political and corporate leaders, and a lot of duped averge americans who live in places like minnesota and have no clue that their country is turning into mexico.

I don't agre completely but a quick look at history:

The Romans took over many other states through their military might. What they did not do was destroy the cultures of those states. One of them was the greeks. The greeks had a very strong culture. In time the greek culture ate the Roman.

Hispanics clearly have a very strong culture too. How else can we explain that they go to live in another country and don't assimilate; they don't learn the language as just one example. We now have street signs in spanish and several all spanish TV channels in each area.

Will they eat us?

 

[Dr.Who]

The lower salaries are a distraction from the total impact: the illegal aliens scam the health care system causing increases in health care cost and insurance premiums. They drive without insurance and skip back to mexico when they cause accidents, raising auto insurance premiums. Their children are educated in our government schools, but they don't pay the supporting property taxes. They are a drag on our society in many ways - the comprise 25% of california's prison population. The government allows the anchor baby's illegal alien parent (the one who snuck across the border to give birth free in a US hospital) permission to stay as the parent of an "american citizen", making her elligble for a whole raft of free, paid for by taxpayers, social services including medicaid, food stamps, housing, and free legal services. The net effect is to enrich a few employers, while creating huge social costs for everyone else.

I agre with the conclusion and appreciate all your points. But just for the sake of accurace I would say:

Illegals do pay property taxes either if they own a home or rent.
They do often pay income taxes even if they don't file. But they never get rebates or refunds.
They do pay sales tax whenever they buy stuff.
Some might even have health insurance that they bought.

Whether or not they have paid into the system is not the primary issue. The pirmary issue is just that they are illegal.

 

[PLC1]

No one wants illegal immigrants, but with millions in our borders there is not much that we can do to get those current people out. Even with precautions to prevent them from getting jobs and other restrictions they still are going to stay because poverty in America is still better than their lives in other countries.

After a strong border against illegal immigrants is built the illegal immigrants should be legalized to make them pay taxes and not cause unfair competition by being able to be payed for less than the mininum wage. However, it is important that we can defend our borders before the legalization is done because that will obviously be a huge incentive for even more people to try and get to America illegally. That is where Bill Clinton failed, he legalized immigrants but didn't prevent more from entering this country.

Unless you want to keep the current illegal immigrants illegal to satisfy a desire for law and order, there is no practical way of getting those people out of the country, so the only way to fix the problem is to legalize them.

Actually, illegal alien amnesty happened in '86, long before the Clinton White house, but that is what happened: Amnesty was given, but the border was not secured. The result was a deluge of illegal aliens.

And, I don't buy the "you can't get them out" argument for amnesty. If jobs dry up, if criminals are instantly deported, pretty soon, most of them will go home or wind up in a Mexican jail. Once they're home, then sure, let's let them apply for legal entry. If there's room, and they can pass a background check, then allow them to enter. We don't want to close the border, only control it.

 

[Libsmasher]

I agre with the conclusion and appreciate all your points. But just for the sake of accurace I would say:

Illegals do pay property taxes either if they own a home or rent.

Renters don't pay property tax, and very few illegal aliens must own a home - it's hard for me to see how any of them could get through the legal hoops of buying while being here illegally.

They do often pay income taxes even if they don't file. But they never get rebates or refunds.

You should grasp that most of them work for cash on the black market, and don't pay taxes.

They do pay sales tax whenever they buy stuff.
Some might even have health insurance that they bought.

An illegal alien who BUYS health insurance must be the stupidest person on earth, and I doubt that any of them do. Do you have statistics?

 

[Libsmasher]

No one wants illegal immigrants, but with millions in our borders there is not much that we can do to get those current people out. Even with precautions to prevent them from getting jobs and other restrictions they still are going to stay because poverty in America is still better than their lives in other countries.

Completely false. All that is needed is to implement real ID for employees, make HUGE increases of fines for scofflaw employers - I suggest 10% of last year's profits for every illegal caught working, and greatly step up the inspectors in the few known industry employers of illegals. The failure to remove them is strictly US political interests arrayed against getting them out, nothing else.

 

[Dr.Who]

Renters don't pay property tax, and very few illegal aliens must own a home - it's hard for me to see how any of them could get through the legal hoops of buying while being here illegally.

If they pay rent then the landlords are using that to pay the taxes. Sure technically they are not paying them but more practically they are. However, if 15 people are sharing an apartment and they send 10 kids to school then they are not paying their fair share.

You should grasp that most of them work for cash on the black market, and don't pay taxes.

Most of them work at regular jobs using someone else social security number. The taxes are paid under that account.

An illegal alien who BUYS health insurance must be the stupidest person on earth, and I doubt that any of them do. Do you have statistics?

I just looked it up. The figure I found was higher than I would have expected:

"In 1998, 32.4 percent of persons living in immigrant households (primarily Immigrants and their young children) lacked health insurance--more than twice the 13.9 percent of persons in native households."
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=456

From that we can estimate that over 60% have health insurance.

Remember the purpose of health insurance is to protect your assets by ensuring that health expenses don't break your finances. If you have assets then you want insurance. And many illegals are not wetbacks but people who have overstayed their visas and bought homes legally and acquired assets.