Is this a politicial forum? can we debate freely?

[top gun]

Nasa was not a pressing need. The world would have been fine if we had never gone to the moon. yes it had benefits but you do not know that we would not have invented Tang without it.

That's the thing about EXPLORATION... you have to actually do it to find out if there is great benefit.

You usually strike me as Conservative but a realist. But on this you are simply small minded. Could not, were not THE EXACT SAME THINGS said about those who wanted to search for the New World. Did not backward people complain about that in exactly the same way? But Spain spent the money and sponsored Mr. Columbus. Worked out pretty well with government support on that EXPLORATION.

And you are also missing the many vast military projects like satellites that were pushed into R&D and deployment way... way... way before there was a commercial use.

I could go on with numerous other examples.

We had roads before the fed existed. We would have had great roads too. like we do today, as soon as asphalt was invented. People would have been motivated by profit to build roads just like there were before the fed and still are today. I live in a community with private roads and there are no toll gates.

You simply live in the land of coulda been revisionist history my friend. At the time that project was seen as simply too big to be done. Sure if government were not allowed to sponsor it, it would of happened at some point tiny bit by tiny bit. But it was needed THEN. And that the entire country, all citizens benefited so greatly from it being done THEN is not even in dispute.

Vaccines were invented privately and are produced privately and the only part that gov plays is to distribute them and to force people to take them. We could have done without that.

You simply have no basis in fact here my friend. The government pours tons on money into modern vaccine R&D so that the private sector & universities will come up with advancements and life saving treatments decades faster than without. We saw how much it helped with polio and government help was relatively late to the game on that one. Since then the government has been investing in life saving medical advancements earlier with unprecedented positive results.

The remarkable pace of the Salk polio vaccine's approval, production, and national distribution required an enormous collaborative effort among the federal government, state governments, vaccine manufacturers, public health agencies, physicians, and other groups. We can trace the multiple roles of the Eisenhower administration, both in public and behind-the-scenes, as it coordinated the national roll-out of the vaccine.

 

[top gun]

I agree. It is when gov makes people play fair that all benefit the most.

Exactly. And we found that Robber Barron capitalism was not fair. So we modified the system.

 

[top gun]

It did not allow it as written. Changing what it said about taxes was a mistake.

The progressive income tax is an evil excuse for stealing that should be stopped.

The fact is that the progressive income tax is legal and been had long standing.

Taxation without representation is stealing. Taxation as we have it is not stealing because we elect the path we choose to go on.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

poor Top - Gun, aka "water pistol", small. He belives all that leftist crap about ONLY Government cares!, lol,lol - He also believes Obama is concerned about AmericA!LOL,LOL- Some will swallow anything! , I think barney frank said that!

Well...we DO know what "conservatives" swallow.

 

[Dr.Who]

Exactly. And we found that Robber Barron capitalism was not fair. So we modified the system.

If there were Robber Barrons and it was already wrong and the gov was already supposed to stop them then there was no need to modify the system.

All that was needed was for the gov to do what it was already supposed to do. If they were incapable of doing that then there is no reason that we should hand them more responsibility.

 

[Dr.Who]

The fact is that the progressive income tax is legal and been had long standing.

Taxation without representation is stealing. Taxation as we have it is not stealing because we elect the path we choose to go on.

Since about '37. Not very long in the history of the country. have you read about the court packing of FDR and how he forced the courts to accept it in underhanded sneaky ways?

Stealing is a near perfect word for taking something from someone when they don't want to give it up.

 

[top gun]

If there were Robber Barrons and it was already wrong and the gov was already supposed to stop them then there was no need to modify the system.

All that was needed was for the gov to do what it was already supposed to do. If they were incapable of doing that then there is no reason that we should hand them more responsibility.

The founders could not possibly know of every single thing that might happen and prepare for it.

Truth is the super rich were very good at gaming the system so only they would stay rich. Admit it or not, like it or not that IS capitalism in is 100% purest form. And that's been proven not a good thing. It's also a fact that up against such riches a government is the only thing big enough & strong enough to protect it's people from the ultra greedy.

Things will never be perfect for all but we have found a way to keep Americans out of extreme poverty and to protect or elderly and still have the the capitalist opportunity to succeed and advance and become better off.

I'm proud of America for finding ways to better itself.

 

[top gun]

Since about '37. Not very long in the history of the country. have you read about the court packing of FDR and how he forced the courts to accept it in underhanded sneaky ways?

Stealing is a near perfect word for taking something from someone when they don't want to give it up.

73 years and still going. A progressive income tax is the fairest system that still brings in the needed amount of revenue. Now could we spend less and then need less revenue. Sure. If I see a serious effort from the Right to say cut our military spending & foreign donations in half and also close every last corporate tax shelter and loophole and bit of corporate welfare I'd be glad to sit down and talk about cutting back seriously on the other side... if that tax bill is all that matters.

But don't see that happening.

Again, we have a Republic (a Representative democracy). If tomorrow Americans all got together and said this way sucks from now on we're only going to elect Trekkies that would want to have all our national security under Star Fleet Command that would be absolutely as American as can be. It's what THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE voted for through their representatives. What they wanted.

Your complaining about taxes is exactly the same as complaining for free speech but then being mad when a person you oppose speaks. We elected these changes over the years.

That could not be anymore American. Certainly not stealing.

 

[always]

73 years and still going. A progressive income tax is the fairest system that still brings in the needed amount of revenue. Now could we spend less and then need less revenue. Sure. If I see a serious effort from the Right to say cut our military spending & foreign donations in half and also close every last corporate tax shelter and loophole and bit of corporate welfare I'd be glad to sit down and talk about cutting back seriously on the other side... if that tax bill is all that matters.

But don't see that happening.

Again, we have a Republic (a Representative democracy). If tomorrow Americans all got together and said this way sucks from now on we're only going to elect Trekkies that would want to have all our national security under Star Fleet Command that would be absolutely as American as can be. It's what THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE voted for through their representatives. What they wanted.

Your complaining about taxes is exactly the same as complaining for free speech but then being mad when a person you oppose speaks. We elected these changes over the years.

That could not be anymore American. Certainly not stealing.

LOL,LOL,LOL - What a JOKE!!

 

[Richard Savage]

It is said that there are only two constants in life: death and taxes. To this one must add disappointment; for besides the inevitability of death and the certainty of taxes, the disappointment of expectations is the most common-place occurrence in life. But if death, taxes and disappointment are all one has to look forward to in life, then what’s the point of living? It seems a hopeless business. No one has been known to cheat death and get away with it; and while one may dodge paying taxes (and get away with it), there is still the disappointment of having to run through life always looking over your shoulder for the tax man. In the face of life’s constants, and the prospect of disappointment, one would be well advised to devote oneself to doing good works - at least then it could be said that you did not live in vain.

 

[Pandora]

I need to make a correction. Quite by accident I read a story yesterday that said that the famine that killed 4 million was not just a result of his policies.

It turns out that he planned the famine to drive peasants onto collective farms.

Socialism in action.

Can you post where you read that? The first thought that came to my mind when reading this post was the delta shmelt and the intentional famine happening in Calif.

 

[top gun]

It is said that there are only two constants in life: death and taxes. To this one must add disappointment; for besides the inevitability of death and the certainty of taxes, the disappointment of expectations is the most common-place occurrence in life. But if death, taxes and disappointment are all one has to look forward to in life, then what’s the point of living? It seems a hopeless business. No one has been known to cheat death and get away with it; and while one may dodge paying taxes (and get away with it), there is still the disappointment of having to run through life always looking over your shoulder for the tax man. In the face of life’s constants, and the prospect of disappointment, one would be well advised to devote oneself to doing good works - at least then it could be said that you did not live in vain.

Thoughtful & insightful post Richard.

That's the first advice I give to anyone feeling depressed. I say... go out and help someone else. It is amazing how seeing yourself helping someone else makes you forget your own problems a little.

Coaching was my way of giving back. I enjoyed it as much as the kids did that actually were competing.

I'm the guy in the middle in the black. You can click on it to blow it up. My identity revealed... LOL

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Thoughtful & insightful post Richard.

That's the first advice I give to anyone feeling depressed. I say... go out and help someone else. It is amazing how seeing yourself helping someone else makes you forget your own problems a little.

Coaching was my way of giving back. I enjoyed it as much as the kids did that actually were competing.

I'm the guy in the middle in the black. You can click on it to blow it up. My identity revealed... LOL

DITTO, that post about Savages statement!

I've been volunteering at my local Bread Basket for over 5 years this coming March {since moving here 9 years ago} and we are seeing a lot more young couples utilizing our facility...before this year it was mostly elderly and an occasional handicapped veteran...but as the cold weather starts settling in we have opened up a couple more days during the month.

Yep, it give you a bit more perspective on what the 'common people/people without a class status' are doing to survive!

BTW...you were a pretty bearded up man, back in the day...still have the beard?

 

[top gun]

DITTO, that post about Savages statement!

I've been volunteering at my local Bread Basket for over 5 years this coming March {since moving here 9 years ago} and we are seeing a lot more young couples utilizing our facility...before this year it was mostly elderly and an occasional handicapped veteran...but as the cold weather starts settling in we have opened up a couple more days during the month.

Yep, it give you a bit more perspective on what the 'common people/people without a class status' are doing to survive!

BTW...you were a pretty bearded up man, back in the day...still have the beard?

Everyone keeps asking me that when they see that pic. I realize beards have been kinda out of style for awhile... LOL! I trimmed up to just a mustache & goatee a few years back. Hair got a little more brown than black too.

I don't see it... but it's been said... I look like the country singer Ronnie Dunn of Brooks & Dunn.

Shame to... because I'm really more of a rock guy.

And good on ya for helping out at the Bread Basket.

This won't embed so you have to click on Watch on YouTube after you click on the arrow.

 

[GenSeneca]

Capitalism requires the free flow of capital. It is a market system based on capital investment, and a government system committed to capital expenditure and tax incentives to prime the pump.

That synopsis is incorrect. Capitalism is not based on capital investments/expenditures in government and its a violation of capitalist principles to offer "tax incentives", I.E. taxpayer funded subsidies, for any goods or services.

Capitalism does require the free flow of capital but only on a voluntary basis. For example, mandating that all citizens purchase Healthcare insurance violates capitalist principles by eliminating the voluntary nature of the flow of capital and mandating that a good or service be purchased by the public under threat of force. This is coercion, not capitalism.

Capitalism, despite the common misconceptions, is not anarchy. Capitalism calls for government to do one job and do it well: Protect our Individual Rights. Enron was not capitalism in action, it was fraud and government collusion in action. Same with the economic meltdown of the financial sector, fraud and government collusion, not a result of adhering to capitalist principle but an example of abandoning capitalist principle.