I'm amused by the discussion of "freedom" in health care

[Dr.Who]

I've addressed the issue before.

The there is no constraint in the tenth that says the people may not empower their national government to handle an issue as Congress is granted the specific power to make policy for the general welfare. If there is a constraint, please point it out.

The underlying theory of our government says the just powers of the government come from the consent of the governed. Yes, I do believe I read that somewhere.

Sorry, congress can only do what the constitution empowers them to do. Everything else is a right retained by the states and the people.

Unless congress is specifically empowered to give one persons money to another they cannot do it. Unless they are empowered to create health care for all they cannot do it. The states can.

 

[AtheismIsReality]

Sorry, congress can only do what the constitution empowers them to do. Everything else is a right retained by the states and the people.

Unless congress is specifically empowered to give one persons money to another they cannot do it. Unless they are empowered to create health care for all they cannot do it. The states can.

Please point out those specific powers.

And then when you do, please explain the definition of "general welfare."

 

[Dr.Who]

Please point out those specific powers.

The specific powers are enumerated (that means put in a list). Here is a discussion of them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enumerated_powers

About those powers the Supreme Court said:

"This government is acknowledged by all, to be one of enumerated powers. The principle, that it can exercise only the powers granted to it, would seem too apparent, to have required to be enforced by all those arguments, which its enlightened friends, while it was depending before the people, found it necessary to urge; that principle is now universally admitted."

And then when you do, please explain the definition of "general welfare."

The meaning of the general welfare clause is obvious to those with common sense. It cannot authorize the government to do anything at all or it would render the enumerated list to be without meaning.

The gen wel clause is a clarification of the intent of the enumerated list saying that the powers the fed has been given are for the purpose of the general welfare.

For those who think that the fed can do whatever is in the general interest of the country consider then that we can have no complaint about anything at all that they do (warrantless wiretaps, unlawful wars, mass executions of citizens, etc).

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Technically you are correct. Those who value freedom should complain when anyone's freedom is restricted.....

AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mr. Shaman]

That's because most of the left is too ignorant to realize the poor in our country get better health care than those in socialized countries.

That's what Porky Limbaugh says, huh??????

​

 

[top gun]

One of the battle cries against health care reform is "freedom." We can't let the government get involved with health care because it will take away our freedom.

Yet, government has been involved in health care for a long time. One of the things our government has mandated is that everyone receives emergency care regardless of ability to pay.

Where was all the whining about freedom in regard to that? Why weren't all the freedom loving people marching on DC and demanding that health care providers not be placed into slavery and forced to absorb the expense of those who cannot pay for treatment?

And of course you make a great point. Here's the real answer.

It's because America has ALWAYS stated that it's government should be there to help it's people in times or situations of great need (as in the preamble... to promote the general welfare). The Conservatives just wish to sweep that part under the rug when it suits their purpose by using the no taxes Red Herring. In reality as long is there is duly elected representation that votes for those services even if it requires taxes... it is as American as apple pie.

 

[Hanno]

And of course you make a great point. Here's the real answer.

It's because America has ALWAYS stated that it's government should be there to help it's people in times or situations of great need (as in the preamble... to promote the general welfare). The Conservatives just wish to sweep that part under the rug when it suits their purpose by using the no taxes Red Herring. In reality as long is there is duly elected representation that votes for those services even if it requires taxes... it is as American as apple pie.

Medical products and services are growing faster than the rest of the GDP, have been since car ownership became common, which makes absolute perfect sense to me - we've all got what we need to make it through the day so the logical thing to want is more days. This isn't a time of need with respect to healthcare, despite the cruel and unusual regulatory burden faced by that industry - we're in high cotton.

 

[always]

Which part are you citing?

PLEASE , Dr. WHO, do not debate our CONSTITUTION and its VALUE with those who want to CONTROL your every thought and action. Trying to debate them is like trying to drive a buried boulder, it cannot be done and even if it could be done , it is not worth your time or efforts, I suggest YOU cease and dismiss. Just my well respected opinion. Your , welcome

 

[always]

That's what Porky Limbaugh says, huh??????

​

AND-- AMERICANS KNOW RUSH LIMBAUGH is CORRECT 99.3% of the TIME!!!

VOTE CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES in 2010 & 2012 - FORGET PARTY, VOTE YOUR VALUES! the obama magic!! , he turns BLUE STATES into RED STATES and RED STATES into BRIGHTER RED STATES!!! ie. Virginia & New Jersey, just within the past week. I LOVE IT!!

 

[top gun]

Medical products and services are growing faster than the rest of the GDP, have been since car ownership became common, which makes absolute perfect sense to me - we've all got what we need to make it through the day so the logical thing to want is more days. This isn't a time of need with respect to healthcare, despite the cruel and unusual regulatory burden faced by that industry - we're in high cotton.

Well only if by cruel and unusual burden you mean skyrocketing record profits and executive salaries.

* Ron Williams – Aetna – Total Compensation: $24,300,112.
* H. Edward Hanway – CIGNA – Total Compensation: $12,236,740.
* Angela Braly – WellPoint – Total Compensation: $9,844,212.
* Dale Wolf – Coventry Health Care – Total Compensation: $9,047,469.
* Michael Neidorff – Centene – Total Compensation: $8,774,483.
* James Carlson – AMERIGROUP – Total Compensation: $5,292,546.
* Michael McCallister – Humana – Total Compensation: $4,764,309.
* Jay Gellert – Health Net – Total Compensation: $4,425,355.
* Richard Barasch – Universal American – Total Compensation: $3,503,702.
* Stephen Hemsley – UnitedHealth Group – Total Compensation: $3,241,042.

We have a monopolized system and more and more Americans every single day lose or can no longer afford to carry insurance. Every single day families lose everything even their homes to medical bills.

This most certainly is a time of need.

 

[Dr.Who]

PLEASE , Dr. WHO, do not debate our CONSTITUTION and its VALUE with those who want to CONTROL your every thought and action. Trying to debate them is like trying to drive a buried boulder, it cannot be done and even if it could be done , it is not worth your time or efforts, I suggest YOU cease and dismiss. Just my well respected opinion. Your , welcome

I appreciate your concern. When debating I consider everyone to be in one of three groups: Those who can debate with an open mind, those who make a good backdrop for others to witness the debate, and those who should be ignored.

There is only one person on this board that I think everyone should put on their ignore list because he/she detracts from the board and brings down the whole forum. I encourage you all to join me.

I don't think AIR will be on that last shameful list.

 

[top gun]

AND-- AMERICANS KNOW RUSH LIMBAUGH is CORRECT 99.3% of the TIME!!!

VOTE CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES in 2010 & 2012 - FORGET PARTY, VOTE YOUR VALUES! the obama magic!! , he turns BLUE STATES into RED STATES and RED STATES into BRIGHTER RED STATES!!! ie. Virginia & New Jersey, just within the past week. I LOVE IT!!

Riiiiiiiiight he's about as sharp as a bag of hammers.

And as we just saw in the US House race in the New York 23rd District when the lunatic Druggie Limbaugh Conservative candidate runs instead of the more moderate Republican... the Democrat wins. Even in a place like the 23rd that has been solid totally Republican ever since the 19th century.

 

[Hanno]

Well only if by cruel and unusual burden you mean skyrocketing record profits and executive salaries.

* Ron Williams – Aetna – Total Compensation: $24,300,112.
* H. Edward Hanway – CIGNA – Total Compensation: $12,236,740.
* Angela Braly – WellPoint – Total Compensation: $9,844,212.
* Dale Wolf – Coventry Health Care – Total Compensation: $9,047,469.
* Michael Neidorff – Centene – Total Compensation: $8,774,483.
* James Carlson – AMERIGROUP – Total Compensation: $5,292,546.
* Michael McCallister – Humana – Total Compensation: $4,764,309.
* Jay Gellert – Health Net – Total Compensation: $4,425,355.
* Richard Barasch – Universal American – Total Compensation: $3,503,702.
* Stephen Hemsley – UnitedHealth Group – Total Compensation: $3,241,042.

We have a monopolized system and more and more Americans every single day lose or can no longer afford to carry insurance. Every single day families lose everything even their homes to medical bills.

This most certainly is a time of need.

What do you got to substantiate that - youtube videos, imprecise use of the term 'monopolized', a sentence that begins with 'Every single day' which I didn't finish reading for that reason, big numbers tied to execs? Platitudes. We weren't claiming to be in peril until they had something we wanted that we couldn't just peel off a couple bucks for. Poor us.

 

[asur]

It's not really about just healthcare. That's just a start and smart way to total control.

You need to expand your thinking here and note how every policy
Obama pushes reduces freedom somehow!

Did you notice how some of Obama's friends are making obscene money
while regular folk are out of jobs?

Can you connect the dots?

 

[top gun]

What do you got to substantiate that - youtube videos, imprecise use of the term 'monopolized', a sentence that begins with 'Every single day' which I didn't finish reading for that reason, big numbers tied to execs? Platitudes. We weren't claiming to be in peril until they had something we wanted that we couldn't just peel off a couple bucks for. Poor us.

Well I'll grant you it's not just me sticking my head in the sand saying problem... what problem... I don't see any problem. And denying that this healthcare issue has been a problem that Presidents have tried to address ever since FDR (Democrats and Republicans alike). Simple truth is nothing got done so the problem just continued to worsen.

And that list includes even Nixon & Reagan. And let's see (in text version)what former Republican presidential candidate Bob Dole said...

Former Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole (R-Kans.) told reporters on Wednesday that opposition to the president's health care package was driven, in part, by knee-jerk partisanship and he urged Congressional Republicans to consider backing a version of reform.

The 1996 Republican presidential candidate also predicted, following a speech at a health care reform summit in Kansas, that "there will be a signing ceremony" for a reform bill sometime this year or early in 2010.

But the comments that seem likely to create the most ripples were those that dealt with Congressional opposition to the White House. Dole, according to reports, framed the pushback to Barack Obama's reform agenda as almost perfunctory in nature.

"Sometimes people fight you just to fight you," he said, according to The Kansas City Star. "They don't want Reagan to get it, they don't want Obama to get it, so we've got to kill it..."

"Health care is one of those things," he added. "Now we've got to do something."

As far as the use of youtubes it's just not as dry nor as page consuming as sending you the many analysis's in text.

As far as health insurance being a form of a monopolized racket... let's look... by text and youtube.

Most American Iinsurance Markets Limited To Few Companies

It is clear that health insurance markets are broken. A tsunami of health insurance mergers has led to such high levels of concentration in insurance markets that there are now only one or two dominant insurers in many states. And these local monopolies go unchallenged because there are substantial barriers to entry and expansion for other insurers.

Lack of competition has led to growing insurer profits, increased costs and reduced coverage for enrollees, an epidemic of deceptive and fraudulent conduct, and rapidly escalating costs. More than 46 million Americans are now uninsured, and premiums have grown 130 percent over the last 10 years. Health insurers engage in an endless list of deceptive, fraudulent, and unfair practices that deny millions of consumers adequate coverage. Meanwhile, 10 of the largest health insurers saw their profits balloon from $2.4billion in 2000 to $13 billion in 2007.

The accompanying data shows that one or two carriers dominate many state insurance markets. One carrier controls more than half the market in at least 17 states. Two carriers control at least half the market in at least 22 more. And the American Medical Association found in 2008 that insurance markets are highly concentrated in 94 percent of metropolitan statistical areas, and that a single carrier controlled at least 30 percent of the insurance market in 89 percent of these areas.

As a result, health insurance interests come before Americans’ health care needs. Health insurers in markets that are dominated by only a few firms can maximize the rates they charge employers and families. Employers are then unable to afford meaningful health insurance options for their employees or, in the case of many small businesses, are unable to offer their employees coverage at all. And most Americans seeking health insurance in the individual market never purchase coverage.

At the same time, state insurance commissioners lack the resources and capacity to protect consumers’ interests and police this anticompetitive and deceptive conduct. Researchers in a recent review of 33 states found that in states with the most highly concentrated insurance markets, state regulators had taken no significant consumer protection actions against health insurers in the last five years. These insurers are able to offer poor coverage and deny care to inflate profits, as well as maintain effective monopolies, without fear of intervention.

Real health care reform must encourage real competition among health insurers—competition that benefits patients, employers, and health care providers. A health insurance exchange with a public health insurance option and real health insurance market reforms will force insurers to compete on price, value, and service. At the same time, reform must also include comprehensive consumer protections and meaningful enforcement so that the promises of reform are fully realized.