Government dependence hits record

[Openmind]

If you repeat a lie often enough, it does NOT become true, no matter what your talking heads tell you.

You're correct. . .remember that!

 

[Arbopa]

I know that, thus I do not even tell lies... I'm just informing you because it seems you did not get the memo, based on a repeat of your 'rich people don't work' rant.

 

[Openmind]

I know that, thus I do not even tell lies... I'm just informing you because it seems you did not get the memo, based on a repeat of your 'rich people don't work' rant.

Once again, you are spinning my words, but when I ask you where I make the kind of statements you accuse me of making. . .you put your tail between your leg and refuse to answer!

Where did I say that ALL rich people don't work?
I posted a very reputable journal article stating that only 10% of the wealthy income comes from WORK or salary.

Obviously rich people work. . .but NOT harder or longer than the average middle class person. Their wealth, especially as they go higher and higher into the top wealth, is increasingly LESS from work, and more from dividends and inheritance.

If you can contradict that with reliable sources, I am open to looking at it.

But just spinning and bashing my words is not very convincing, at least not for people who can think for themselves!

 

[Arbopa]

Once again, you are spinning my words, but when I ask you where I make the kind of statements you accuse me of making. . .you put your tail between your leg and refuse to answer!

Total BS. If you do not remember repeatedly saying that rich people do not work, well, that is your issue. You never asked me to point out where you made them, quit fabricating things out of thin air. If you were to ask, I'd tell you to go back through some of your recent posts, your words are there for the WORLD to see. Again, if you do not remember typing them many times, that is your issue.

Your constant spin it so very tiresome.

 

[Openmind]

Total BS. If you do not remember repeatedly saying that rich people do not work, well, that is your issue. You never asked me to point out where you made them, quit fabricating things out of thin air. If you were to ask, I'd tell you to go back through some of your recent posts, your words are there for the WORLD to see. Again, if you do not remember typing them many times, that is your issue.

Your constant spin it so very tiresome.

Yes I did ask you to show me where I made those "supposed" remarks. . .and you chose not to. But it's not too late! My posts (all of them) are still available for all to see. . . so why don't you show me? If the WHOLE WORLD can see it, it shouldn't be that hard for YOU to show it, right?

 

[dogtowner]

Once again, you are spinning my words, but when I ask you where I make the kind of statements you accuse me of making. . .you put your tail between your leg and refuse to answer!

Where did I say that ALL rich people don't work?
I posted a very reputable journal article stating that only 10% of the wealthy income comes from WORK or salary.

Obviously rich people work. . .but NOT harder or longer than the average middle class person. Their wealth, especially as they go higher and higher into the top wealth, is increasingly LESS from work, and more from dividends and inheritance.

If you can contradict that with reliable sources, I am open to looking at it.

But just spinning and bashing my words is not very convincing, at least not for people who can think for themselves!

your reputable journal seems to be a website made to promote the author's book of the same subject but be that as it may, lets review what he had to say:

We also need to distinguish wealth from income. Income is what people earn from work, but also from dividends, interest, and any rents or royalties that are paid to them on properties they own. In theory, those who own a great deal of wealth may or may not have high incomes, depending on the returns they receive from their wealth, but in reality those at the very top of the wealth distribution usually have the most income. (But it's important to note that for the rich, most of that income does not come from "working": in 2008, only 19% of the income reported by the 13,480 individuals or families making over $10 million came from wages and salaries. See Norris, 2010, for more details.)

this specifically excludes capital gains. that's fine if you are the IRS but excludes a huge amount of money made. lets take the case of Rich Fairbank and Nigel Morris founders of Capital One (originally headquartered here in Richmond Va who I met when I was consulting there). To spur growth in their company they took salaries of $1 (ONE dollar not a typo) the rest in stock options. Because they believed in their employees ability to make them rich. And boy did they. Nigel (English fellow) cashed out for an early retirement but Rich remains puts in about as many hours as he ever did. Take Dick Wiltshire of what was Home Beneficial Life also here in Richmond and best capitalized regional insurer in the country and who I knew when I worked there who took an under siz figure salary. He worked every day as well. Then there is my brother who my sister-in-law will tell you he works as long and hard as he ever did (and so much for that 'retire at 50' which was the plan and which he could very easily have done he's 60 now). When real estate got hammered some decades ago not only did he take no salary but was making payroll out of his savings.

These guys are not uncommon. Generally speaking, if you work for someone else you get a salary, if you have others working for yoiu its not a salary you take and only partially because only the foolish pay higher taxes for no reason.

 

[Arbopa]

Yes I did ask you to show me where I made those "supposed" remarks. . .and you chose not to. But it's not too late! My posts (all of them) are still available for all to see. . . so why don't you show me? If the WHOLE WORLD can see it, it shouldn't be that hard for YOU to show it, right?

You are amazing. Please show me where you asked me to show where you stated that the 'rich do not work' many times. Go for it. You did not.

The post I responded to above, where you said the rich do not work:
https://www.houseofpolitics.com/threads/government-dependence-hits-record.14722/page-3#post-182499

An earlier post, same theme:
https://www.houseofpolitics.com/threads/government-dependence-hits-record.14722/page-2#post-182352

Babble about 'redistribution' being from the poor TO the wealthy:
https://www.houseofpolitics.com/threads/73-support-the-buffett-rule.13778/page-20#post-174807

Good grief, you have been toting the party line talking point BS for a long time. Broken record going on and on and on and on and on.

 

[Openmind]

your reputable journal seems to be a website made to promote the author's book of the same subject but be that as it may, lets review what he had to say:



this specifically excludes capital gains. that's fine if you are the IRS but excludes a huge amount of money made. lets take the case of Rich Fairbank and Nigel Morris founders of Capital One (originally headquartered here in Richmond Va who I met when I was consulting there). To spur growth in their company they took salaries of $1 (ONE dollar not a typo) the rest in stock options. Because they believed in their employees ability to make them rich. And boy did they. Nigel (English fellow) cashed out for an early retirement but Rich remains puts in about as many hours as he ever did. Take Dick Wiltshire of what was Home Beneficial Life also here in Richmond and best capitalized regional insurer in the country and who I knew when I worked there who took an under siz figure salary. He worked every day as well. Then there is my brother who my sister-in-law will tell you he works as long and hard as he ever did (and so much for that 'retire at 50' which was the plan and which he could very easily have done he's 60 now). When real estate got hammered some decades ago not only did he take no salary but was making payroll out of his savings.

These guys are not uncommon. Generally speaking, if you work for someone else you get a salary, if you have others working for yoiu its not a salary you take and only partially because only the foolish pay higher taxes for no reason.

That "author" is a little more than a writer trying to sell a book! Actually, his book is NOT for general "consumption," as it is an academic text book, and the author is a very well known and respected sociologist who is teaching in an University of California sociology department. You make it sounds like I got that quote from the "national inquirer!" Very silly!

And. ..I'm sure we would ALL agree to take $1 in salary if we knew we would get millions in "bonus" and other advantages!

 

[dogtowner]

That "author" is a little more than a writer trying to sell a book! Actually, his book is NOT for general "consumption," as it is an academic text book, and the author is a very well known and respected sociologist who is teaching in an University of California sociology department. You make it sounds like I got that quote from the "national inquirer!" Very silly!

And. ..I'm sure we would ALL agree to take $1 in salary if we knew we would get millions in "bonus" and other advantages!

its advertised on the website as being available on Amazon and I stated the website was specific to his book, not a journal or a supermarket rag.

yes we might well do that for tax purposes alone which just proves that the professor is intentionally excluding those among the wealthy who don't fit the point he's trying to make. but at least he's stating so up front so I'll give him credit for being honest in that regard.

 

[Openmind]

its advertised on the website as being available on Amazon and I stated the website was specific to his book, not a journal or a supermarket rag.

yes we might well do that for tax purposes alone which just proves that the professor is intentionally excluding those among the wealthy who don't fit the point he's trying to make. but at least he's stating so up front so I'll give him credit for being honest in that regard.

So, because an academic book is also wide reaching enough to be sold on Amazon, that says it is not calid?

You don't know much about academia, do you?

In fact, the first edition of that book was publisshed about 25 years ago, and was a landmark in sociological science. Domhoffhas since rvised that book several times to include the new statistics, so it remains perfectly rlevant today.

I believe that it is in the first version of that book that he first wrote about the "bohemian grove" gathering of the super wealthy, the original elite group of decision makers in the world. The one at, 20 years later, the Libertarian and infowar suddenly "discovered" and Alex Jones made his own, conveniently "forgetting" where he had read it first!

 

[dogtowner]

So, because an academic book is also wide reaching enough to be sold on Amazon, that says it is not calid?

You don't know much about academia, do you?

You are the one who stated

his book is NOT for general "consumption," as it is an academic text book

I just pointed out that this is not the case.

I know enough. about academia to know that there is nothing new about excluding that which does not validate the theme. There remain academics who say that the Emancipation Proclamation freed the slaves when it was the 13th Amendment passed two years later.

 

[WolfLarsen]

Openmind said:

And. . .the reason the VERY wealthy do not NEED to retire, is because they are basically never working. . . unless you call meeting on the golf course, cocktail parties, and excursions on private yacht where business is discussed among "good old boy" WORKING.

The sad fact of the matter is is that when the 1% go out playing on their golf clubs, eating at fancy restaurants, and whatnot it's all a tax break - that's right, it's all a tax write off! I know because I arranged the receipts for the accountant when I was doing temp work for a while.

Before the temp job I worked blue-collar jobs for 12 years. God forbid that a blue-collar man should try to get some tax breaks for the work gear and warm clothing that he needs for his job. That's not what tax write offs are for! The tax write offs are for the rich! I think it's absurd that when I was busting my back on the docks I paid twice as much in taxes (in percentage) then that rich so and so Mitt Romney.

And those rich people that are working what are they doing? They are trading in derivatives, they are engaged in destructive speculation, they are taking the money out of the country and hiding it abroad to avoid paying taxes.

But I want to make something absolutely clear. I have no problem with a doctor or someone who has actually invented a wonderful computer program becoming rich.

However, I am very much against this parasitic practice of one generation of the bourgeoisie passing on billions of dollars to the next generation of the bourgeoisie. These people do not work, at any rate whatever they do I do not call work. What the bourgeoisie do is more like wrecking and pillaging. Look at the economy! It's a mess!

Look at what is happened to the industry of our nation. Much of it is gone. The bourgeoisie took the money out of those factories every year and failed to reinvest the money in those factories, and not surprisingly after decades of not modernizing those factories they went out of business. But the bourgeoisie wanted to hoard that money. And who's sweat made the rich people rich? The sweat of the worker!

 

[BigRob]

I simply just disagree with the conservative posters on this thread. I believe that unless you are disabled or you are a college student you should be working. I just don't understand why the American worker should support a wealthy class of people who inherited their money and do not work.

I simply very strongly believe in the work ethic. I believe that everyone should get up in the morning and go to a job, unless they are disabled or studying. I see no reason why rich people should not get up in the morning and go to work just like everyone else.

What is "work"? And what would you say to the millions of stay at home moms in this county? "Get a job"?

I do not believe that trading in derivatives and ruining the economy in the process is a real job. Eating caviar and drinking champagne on the taxpayers dime (bailouts) is not a job description either. All I'm saying is that the rich people need to get a job. Maybe they can flip hamburgers.

None of these things you described are the norm either. And trading derivatives is quite hard to do successfully -- have you ever tried it?

I fail to understand these right-wingers who call unemployed Americans lazy and then become upset when someone suggests that everyone should have the right to a job. To me that seems hypocritical.

Because we "right-wingers" believe you need to go out and earn that job.

In addition, it seems hypocritical to call unemployed Americans lazy and then defend the "right" of rich billionaires who inherited their money to sit around and do nothing while other people work.

Few billionaries inherited their money -- and even if they did -- they inherited it from someone who earned it. Who are you to say what that person can do with theier money?

Unemployed Americans are not lazy. They want work! The sad fact the capitalists like unemployment. That way, they can make their workers slave away for less money.

Not all are lazy -- we can certainly agree on that point.

There is also the matter of taxes. I think it's time for the rich people and the big corporations to start paying taxes. It's just absolutely scandalous that the rich people and the big corporations are not paying any taxes. They are freeloaders.

It is a falsehood that "rich people and big corporations" don't pay taxes. Certainly there are instances of it -- but it often harps back to writing down massive losses they took etc.

 

[BigRob]

Openmind said:



The sad fact of the matter is is that when the 1% go out playing on their golf clubs, eating at fancy restaurants, and whatnot it's all a tax break - that's right, it's all a tax write off! I know because I arranged the receipts for the accountant when I was doing temp work for a while.

The tax code has changed and those things are not really easy to write off anymore.

Before the temp job I worked blue-collar jobs for 12 years. God forbid that a blue-collar man should try to get some tax breaks for the work gear and warm clothing that he needs for his job. That's not what tax write offs are for! The tax write offs are for the rich! I think it's absurd that when I was busting my back on the docks I paid twice as much in taxes (in percentage) then that rich so and so Mitt Romney.

That is called the progressive tax system -- something you seem to support. As for tax breaks -- I would imagine you got a ton -- and if not -- you should really get a new accountant.

And those rich people that are working what are they doing? They are trading in derivatives, they are engaged in destructive speculation, they are taking the money out of the country and hiding it abroad to avoid paying taxes.

Not all "rich" people trade in derivatives -- not many people do that at all really.

But I want to make something absolutely clear. I have no problem with a doctor or someone who has actually invented a wonderful computer program becoming rich.

However, I am very much against this parasitic practice of one generation of the bourgeoisie passing on billions of dollars to the next generation of the bourgeoisie. These people do not work, at any rate whatever they do I do not call work. What the bourgeoisie do is more like wrecking and pillaging. Look at the economy! It's a mess!

As someone how has benefitted quite handily from money being passed down, I can tell you, it is a lot more involved to shield your money from taxes than you seem to make it out to be. I also resent the implication that since I have plenty of money -- I do not work.

Yes I inherited a lot -- but I also now own two seperate companies and the very notion of 9-5 does not even exist for me -- I work much longer than that.

Look at what is happened to the industry of our nation. Much of it is gone. The bourgeoisie took the money out of those factories every year and failed to reinvest the money in those factories, and not surprisingly after decades of not modernizing those factories they went out of business. But the bourgeoisie wanted to hoard that money. And who's sweat made the rich people rich? The sweat of the worker!

Industry left because it was simply cheaper to move it. It is pure dollars and cents. Want it to stay or come back? Make it worthwhile to do so.

 

[dogtowner]

Before the temp job I worked blue-collar jobs for 12 years. God forbid that a blue-collar man should try to get some tax breaks for the work gear and warm clothing that he needs for his job.

he does get a break for that if he chooses to claim it appropriately on his taxes.