God is the worlds most prolific Abortionist

Thats simply not true. You sound uneducated.

He said:

"Something just occurred to me. Atheism is just another religion.

Atheists believe there is no God. There is no proof that there is no God, but that is what they believe. They tote this belief and throw it in the face of those who do believe in God, unilaterally putting all the burden of proof on the opposition and expecting none of it in return. Their beliefs are based on incomplete data: the idea that other religions are foolish and unsubstantiated, irregardless of the fact that the atheist position itself is unsubstantiated.

Fonz claims that he does not "know" that there is no God. He does, allegedly, know that there are no good reasons to believe in a personal God.

I would bet that the people of the local congregation might take some offense to that, but then, I doubt Fonz would much care; even though these Christians have never blown anyone up or acted in a violent manner at all, according to him their beliefs are just a mask for those who do so. They are a small, out-of-the-way church in New Hampshire where a group of people who rarely leave this state go to pray once every Sunday, and yet their actions, which give them a sense of balance and help them to go about their daily lives as productive members of our nation's economy, are aiding and abetting terrorists, crusaders, and jihadists. There is no proof of this; it is simply what Fonz believes.

Interesting, no?"


That is an observation. The fact that you are unable to recognize it as such, and the fact that you once more resort to impotent insult reflects badly on your own intellect.
 
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And why do you have to accept that the big bang is a miracle? All through history anything people can't explain they turn to religion and/or miracles. We don't understand enough about the big bang to start making claims like that.

I don't know who the rest of your post was directed towards, but I will gladly tell you why one must accept miracles in order to accept the big bang theory.

To begin with, modern day scientists have interpereted data gathered from our instruments, both land and space based to form a theory that states that the universe is expanding at a very rapid rate and that the further a thing is away from us, the more quickly it is moving away from us. This is an uneasy and fragile attempt to explain the fact that the further a thing is away from us, the more of its spectrum is shifted to red.

Modern science theorizes that the universe as we see it is the debris of a fabulous explosion with the fragments of that explosion still flying away in every direction. We have all heard it, and on the surface it makes sense and it is very easy to see how so many could be drawn into it. Lift up the corner and look underneath (so to speak) and there are some terrible problems with the big bang theory that no one in the scientific community even wants to begin to try to answer. In fact, if you ask questions about these problems, you will be immediately dismissed and no further discussion is possible.

Imagine that we are seeing the universe as it exists today as a film. A film that we can run in reverse. OK. Lets reverse it way backt to just a few frames after the big bang happened. As we ran the film back, we saw all of the fragments of the big bang moving back together. Closer and closer until all that is visible is a very bright light. The "big bang".

OK. Start the film backwards again. The light gets smaller and smaller until we reach the birth frame of the big bang. Stop the film. Here, according to modern science, we see a very small something. It is an infinitely hot, and infinitely small (zero diameter) and infinitely curved (round) pointlike dimension and it contains all of the matter and energy in the universe. In fact, it is the universe. This is what we are told by modern science.

Now, we have an infinitely small (zero diameter) spherical point and the big bang takes place. If that point expands a trillion bazillion times, what would it's diameter be? What is a trillion bazillion times zero? The answer is zero no matter how many times you figure it. If the temperature of that infinitely small, infinitely hot point were to drop by a trillion billion times, what would the temperature be? Infinity divided by anything is still infinity so no matter how much you cooled it off, it would still be infinitely hot.

Do you see a trend here? If the universe existed as the scientists say that it did, it isn't getting any bigger and isn't getting any cooler no matter how many frames we move forward. Now. This is where faith enters the religion of the big bang. Lets look at the birth frame of the big bang again. Now ask to see the frame of the film that is just before that one. As soon as you ask to see that frame or that what it is be described to you, the conversation is over and a veritable army of the faithful will come to the defense of their theory.

They will tell you that the question has no meaning. They will suggest that it is like asking who lives a few miles east or west of the equator. There will be talk of singularities that involve incredibly large amounts of mass that come from something like a black hole…but not, where the rules of light and energy don’t exist and a thing like time has no meaning. They will tell you flatly, with a straight face that in an environment that has no passage of time, a word like before has no meaning.

To that, a thinking person should reply that if there is no passage of time, and words like before have no meaning, how can words like after have any meaning either. You can’t have it both ways. Either there is the passage of time and there was a before, or there is no passage of time in which case, there can be no after.

If, as modern science tells us that everything is energy, and energy is mass, and everything was compressed into an infinitely small point, then you would have nothing but a single black hole and as science tells us, you can not big bang your way out of a black hole. If time can’t move, then we would find ourselves completely unable to run our film in either direction; and if they tell you that the energy = mass equation didn’t apply then, it stands to reason that there could be no black hole and in that case, one couldn’t claim the time suspension rules and the word before would have just as much meaning as the word after.

This being said, the big bang happening would have been as big a miracle as God saying “let there be light”.

As our instruments grow more sensitive, we can see more, and see further than we have ever been able to before and the more we see, the less likely the big bang becomes.

We have known for some time about the existence of background radiation in the universe. It is uniform in all directions. Some scientists at the Bell laboratories got a Nobel Prize for discovering that this background radiation was absolutely uniform in every direction. No matter which direction one looks in space, there it was and it was exactly the same. A dead flat, constant 3 degree Kelvin cold. They said that the fact that it was uniform in every direction was the final nail in the creationist coffin. It was proof of the big bang.

A few years later, some super detectors that we placed in orbit that were more sensitive than those used by the Bell laboratory scientists by orders of magnitude found that the flat background radiation wasn’t really flat at all but had some significant undulations and unevenness. It was then determined that the fact that the radiation was uneven and variable was the ultimate proof of the big bang.

In 1995, or maybe 1996 some findings were made with the Hubble telescope that if they are accepted as being correct, deal a major blow to the big bang theory. The pitiful dishonesty of the big bang scientific community was pretty well summed up in a single paragraph from the report.

“The basic theory of cosmology,that the universe burst forth in a big bang from a tiny volume long ago remains intact. But the details must be revised, ore explanations of stallar physics changed, to get stars older than the universe”

In short, with the Hubble telescope, the astronomers were finding 16 billion year old globular clusters in an 8 billion year old universe.

In order to maintain the big bang theory, scientists theorized inflation. They claim that if the could ignore the laws of physics for a millionth of a millionth, of a millionth of a second (I am not kidding) right after the incredibly hot and incredibly dense big bang went off and you allow the explosion to expand at 10 to the 25 times the speed of light and some suggest as much as 10 to the 50 the speed of light, we will have enough velocity to achieve the distribution and organization of matter to put the stars and galaxys in the positions in which we see them today. By ignoring the laws of physics for that wee bit of time, atomic ratios once again makes sense, and some of the questions about anti-matter, and one is excused from answering questions about what the universe looked like in that frame just before the birth frame since all of the echoes of it would have been lost.

Another miracle. Imagine that.. Now we have the anti creationists claiming two miracles in the process of the big bang. First, a small dense hot point that came from nowhere and started everything in motion, and in order to explain it, a magical suspension of the laws of physics for “just a little while” so that everything can expand at a zillion times the speed of light. I am all for science, but the claim of two miracles is just one two many for any scientific theory to hold water with me.
 
You said:

"There is no difference between a Muslim flying a plane into a building because he thinks he'll get 72 virgins in the afterlife, and a catholic believing that Jesus rose from the dead and was born of a Virgin."

Clearly a relativist statement. So you hold relativist views and positions but are not a relativist. OK.

no you misunderstand the statement. IN terms of rationality, they are both the same. One proposition isn't anymore logical than the other.

I wasn't comparing it in terms of morality.
 
Of course I do. That you are unprepared to argue the point with nothing more than an impotent insult is evidence of that. An athiest can no more prove that there is no God than a religious sort can prove that there is. Both are working entirely from faith and the more they believe in their postion, the greater their faith.

actually i've been arguing the point for a few days now on here. IN a couple different threads. I dont like to repeat myself, however I do have other responsibilities to take care of, so you'll have to wait for a more lengthy response.

Stating the truth isn't an insult.
 
Palerider, you have completley missed my point. Sure, the physics of the big bang are completley astounding with the science we have at the moment, because we have a very limited knowledge of anything outside this world.

And when scientists didn't know the earth was round, they said it was flat, because it seemed likely to them with their knowledge and surroundings. However, now we have seen the earth from the outside and fully understand the concept of gravity, we know it is not flat. When our knowledge of the big bang or whatever else stared the universe improves we will see it from a different angle and gain a better understanding of it. People who don't know the answers however, turn to religion.
 
Palerider, you have completley missed my point. Sure, the physics of the big bang are completley astounding with the science we have at the moment, because we have a very limited knowledge of anything outside this world.

And when scientists didn't know the earth was round, they said it was flat, because it seemed likely to them with their knowledge and surroundings. However, now we have seen the earth from the outside and fully understand the concept of gravity, we know it is not flat. When our knowledge of the big bang or whatever else stared the universe improves we will see it from a different angle and gain a better understanding of it. People who don't know the answers however, turn to religion.

I believe what Palerider was saying is that people are not using the big bang as evidence of God simply due to a lack of information, but as a result of scientific discovery. Science today tells us that the events that formed the universe could not happen by chance. As I asked Fonz earlier, if its not by chance, what else is there except God? And he could not give me an answer. All we know of science at this point suggests there is an outside force at work in creation, therefore, that is what I believe. A black hole would be a good analogy. Everything we know about science suggests that they exist, but no one has ever seen a black hole. Yet there is no one that claims it is idiotic to believe in black holes, or that black holes are simply a myth that people created to explain why light and matter is disappearing.
 
No. but black holes have a considerable amount of proof. A God creating the universe is a theory with only 'personal truth' and proof. Sure, a God may have created the universe, but we can only speculate on what that God is like in my opinion rather than making up a load of drivel that is attractive to follow for the common man.
 
No. but black holes have a considerable amount of proof. A God creating the universe is a theory with only 'personal truth' and proof. Sure, a God may have created the universe, but we can only speculate on what that God is like in my opinion rather than making up a load of drivel that is attractive to follow for the common man.

No, there is evidence for black holes. Not proof. Just like the unliklihood of the universe forming, life forming, or humans reaching the level of intelligence to even ask questions about their creation is evidence that there is some kind of outside force at work in the universe.
 
No, there is evidence for black holes. Not proof. Just like the unliklihood of the universe forming, life forming, or humans reaching the level of intelligence to even ask questions about their creation is evidence that there is some kind of outside force at work in the universe.

Not really. Negative evidence is not scientific evidence. Just because something is "unlikely" does not equal evidence of something else.

Scientific theories are not "just theories" - they are supported by a great deal of evidence which in turn proves the theory - such as that for black holes.

Theories may be good, bad, or indifferent. They may be well established by the factual evidence, or they may lack credibility. However - before a theory is given any credence in the scientific community, it must be subjected to "peer review." The proposed theory must be published in a legitimate scientific journal in order to provide the opportunity for other scientists to evaluate the relevant factual information and publish their conclusions. I have yet to see any theory for an outside force in the universe subject to this kind of review.
 
Black holes could one day be proved as things stand (rapid technological advance). However, there is no indication that anything will ever be in the pipline to discover what God is.
 
Look, I'm not out to prove God exists. Believe what you want, I really don't care. I am simply asking that we drop the name calling and stereotypes about religion. Is tolerance too much to ask?
 
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