Federal government finally goes totally insane, bonkers, off the deep end.

[BigRob]

U.S. gift of F-16 fighters headed to Egypt, despite Morsi's harsh rhetoric

So, now we're arming the Muslim Brotherhood via the leader who says:​

Can anyone find any justification for this at all? I've looked and looked, and can find none, nor any explanation other than that our government leaders have finally gone totally nuts and need to be committed. ​

There are a few things that need to be said in regards to all of this.

First, Congress approves such aid to Egpyt, and continues to do so. The Secretary of State can waive certain requirements in the interest of national security, but again, that is an issue for Congress to address -- something they won't do.

Next, Egypt is at a major crossroads. This is the time that will ultimately decide if they are pushed towards a relatively stable somewhat pro-western country, or an extremist dictatorship that promotes terrorism and destabilizes the region. Egypt is a huge player in the Middle East, and they hold a lot of sway. It is important that we make every effort to push them as much as possible towards at least some form of a stable, pro-western regime -- whatever form that takes. Politically speaking, it would be a huge win for the extremist elements in Egypt if America were to suddenly end foreign aid. They could use the issue to gain even more power, and further cast moderate elements in the country aside. It is imperative that we do not allow this to occur.

Certainly this is a gamble to an extent, and we should not focus solely on the military as a partner, or we will ultimately end up on the losing end. We need to continue to pursue partnerships with the military, but also make a big effort with the civilian leadership as well.

Not to mention, we should remember that Egypt is vitally important to the United States, because they control the Suez Canal -- the importance of which simply cannot be understated.

Further, yes the F-16 is a solid airplane, but simply giving a good plane to Egypt does not put them on par with someone like Israel for example. Pilot skill is very important, as well as training, the ability to get replacement parts for these aircraft, as well as conduct general maintence. I saw an argument from the Center for Strategic and International Studies in this regard that I think was spot on. It amounted to the concept that to maintain the software and munitions components you basically had to have access to US suppliers...something which further gives the United States a bargaining chip to help shape the future of Egypt.

So, is the timing bad? Probably. Is this really all that big a deal? I don't think so.

 

[Cruella]

Egypt can protect the suez without F-16's. Those are very sophisticated fighter jets. I see only one reason Egypt would want them, and the word starts with a capital "I".

 

[BigRob]

Egypt can protect the suez without F-16's. Those are very sophisticated fighter jets. I see only one reason Egypt would want them, and the word starts with a capital "I".

I don't see how this is related to "protection of the Suez"....I brought up the Suez as a major interest that the United States has in Egypt....that aside, I tend to doubt Egypt would be able to (or want to) mount a prolonged air campaign against Israel without access to American suppliers to get replacement parts for the planes. Not saying it would never occur, but I tend to think the odds are slim.

 

[Cruella]

The moderates are back out in the streets protesting Morsi. Hope he doesn't act like Assad and use those planes, tanks and money we are giving him on the Egyptian people that wanted a democracy.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Fast & Furious I: Gave Assault Rifles to Mexican Drug Cartels

Fast & Furious II: Gave F-16's to Middle East Dictators

Coming soon - Fast & Furious III: Providing Nukes to Al Qaeda

F-16 to dictators? Have you been under a rock for the ...well since the f-16 was built? The funny thing is the Egypt is actually the only middle east nation outside of Israel we sold them to, that actually did have a Election that was Fair ( relatively at least). Fact is you realy don't care if its a Dictatorship , you want a Dictatorship for them..They can only have Democracy of they vote for your interests and ideas not there own.

Also funny you guys still bitch about guns being sold to go to Mexico...while supporting the laws and loopholes that make it so anyone can go buy assault rifle and sell them to Mexico. You Only Bitch because its Obama...the Sad pathetic Republicans Bitched about How Obama shot and killed poor teens ( pirate hijactors) you bitched he did not Kill Bin Ladin the way you wanted...you are just sad poor saps who need to cry about anything he does. If he saved a kitten you would bitch.

Stop pretending all the sudden you care about f-16 sales to "dictators in the middle east" while you said nothing when republicans sold them to real dictators. Also Stop Pretending your not for Dictators...you are.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I don't see how this is related to "protection of the Suez"....I brought up the Suez as a major interest that the United States has in Egypt....that aside, I tend to doubt Egypt would be able to (or want to) mount a prolonged air campaign against Israel without access to American suppliers to get replacement parts for the planes. Not saying it would never occur, but I tend to think the odds are slim.

well we know who would shoot at a US Military ship in the Suez though...Israel already has done it in the past.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Yes, there is a long history of arming countries that we'd be better off not having armed. I'm not sure what unelected leader you're talking about, but there is no doubt we've armed such regimes in the past.

No nation gives the United States arms or, as far as I know, anything else. This is a part of our foreign aid giveaway that seems to go willy nilly to friends and enemies alike. Yes, it has been going on a long time, but that doesn't mean it should continue. It's time to stop it.

do you know how much it would cost the US to not do it? Building planes only for US use if far far more expensive. Part of the way to bring down the costs is to make sure more are built and sold to other nations. Also a few F-16 that would take no time for the US to take out if we had to...is a small price to gain the leverage we get from the sale to move Egypts Policy to more what we want. ( not out ideal, but closer at least)

 

[Hobo1]

There are a few things that need to be said in regards to all of this.

First, Congress approves such aid to Egpyt, and continues to do so. The Secretary of State can waive certain requirements in the interest of national security, but again, that is an issue for Congress to address -- something they won't do. Note: Congress approved this deal in 2010 when Hosni Mubarak was in charge. This was a contract deal, not just a sudden whim.

Next, Egypt is at a major crossroads. This is the time that will ultimately decide if they are pushed towards a relatively stable somewhat pro-western country, or an extremist dictatorship that promotes terrorism and destabilizes the region. Egypt is a huge player in the Middle East, and they hold a lot of sway. It is important that we make every effort to push them as much as possible towards at least some form of a stable, pro-western regime -- whatever form that takes. Politically speaking, it would be a huge win for the extremist elements in Egypt if America were to suddenly end foreign aid. They could use the issue to gain even more power, and further cast moderate elements in the country aside. It is imperative that we do not allow this to occur.
Note: This is extremely important. Egypt has long been a friend to the US. Right now Egypt is having an internal conflict between 2 different groups that think the country should be governed in different ways (both Muslim groups, btw). Now the military is getting involved and it is likely that a compromise will be found. We need to keep Egypt as a friend with the US - we've got enough trouble in North Africa now.

Certainly this is a gamble to an extent, and we should not focus solely on the military as a partner, or we will ultimately end up on the losing end. We need to continue to pursue partnerships with the military, but also make a big effort with the civilian leadership as well.

Not to mention, we should remember that Egypt is vitally important to the United States, because they control the Suez Canal -- the importance of which simply cannot be understated.

Further, yes the F-16 is a solid airplane, but simply giving a good plane to Egypt does not put them on par with someone like Israel for example. Pilot skill is very important, as well as training, the ability to get replacement parts for these aircraft, as well as conduct general maintence. I saw an argument from the Center for Strategic and International Studies in this regard that I think was spot on. It amounted to the concept that to maintain the software and munitions components you basically had to have access to US suppliers...something which further gives the United States a bargaining chip to help shape the future of Egypt.

So, is the timing bad? Probably. Is this really all that big a deal? I don't think so.
Note: Clearly this was bad timing and a hard decision for the US - but a decision that had to be made. It was not a spontaneously stupid thing to do as might appear.

 

[BigRob]

well we know who would shoot at a US Military ship in the Suez though...Israel already has done it in the past.

I assume you mean the USS Liberty incident...however in your rush to deflect from the issue at hand, you incorrectly identified the position of the USS Liberty when it was mistakenly attacked by Israel.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I assume you mean the USS Liberty incident...however in your rush to deflect from the issue at hand, you incorrectly identified the position of the USS Liberty when it was mistakenly attacked by Israel.

Its position does not mean what it was protecting. And I think "mistaken" is also suspect.

 

[PLC1]

Its position does not mean what it was protecting. And I think "mistaken" is also suspect.

Not really. Israel would deliberately attack a US naval vessel, why again?

 

[BigRob]

Its position does not mean what it was protecting.

The USS Liberty was a technical research ship -- more or less a spy ship. It would be a stretch in my view to argue it was "protecting" the Suez Canal. I suppose you could in a round about way argue the intel it was gathering could be used in such a manner by others to protect something.

And I think "mistaken" is also suspect.

Maybe -- that is the whole debate over the incident. I don't see the gain for Israel by doing it. What would the point be?

 

[GenSeneca]

Stop pretending all the sudden you care about f-16 sales to "dictators in the middle east" while you said nothing when republicans sold them to real dictators. Also Stop Pretending your not for Dictators...you are.

The US government shouldn't be providing military arms to any country... Period... And I've been saying that for more than a decade. No arms and no foreign aid. Of course, that doesn't fit into the stereotype you have about anyone who disagrees with you on politics so you stick with attacking the tried and true straw man.

If other countries want to purchase arms from US manufacturers on an open market, as a supporter of Free Trade I'm fine with that. If individuals or private charities want to send aid to other countries, food, medicine, money etc., I'm fine with that too because the donations/funding is 100% voluntary. As for the type of government other countries have, or choose to have, you had it right the first time - I don't care what kind of government they have.

Now, if you're not too busy, I made a thread about Murder - For the Greater Good. Since you're such a huge supporter of "Democracy!", I can't imagine a reason why you wouldn't support it.

 

[cashmcall]

do you know how much it would cost the US to not do it? Building planes only for US use if far far more expensive. Part of the way to bring down the costs is to make sure more are built and sold to other nations. Also a few F-16 that would take no time for the US to take out if we had to...is a small price to gain the leverage we get from the sale to move Egypts Policy to more what we want. ( not out ideal, but closer at least)

If they want them..THEY SHOULD BUY THEM..

 

[dogtowner]

If they want them..THEY SHOULD BUY THEM..

like everybody else does.