End of the McCain age "issue"

I would rather have an old man for President than a young man who will raise taxes, increase unemployment benefits, pull out of Iraq (which will ruin the Middle East and any US cred left, not to mention skyrocket gas prices), and attempt to increase the size of government by nationalizing healthcare etc..

But....but.... Obama is FRESH! Don't you want fresh taxes, fresh defeat for the US, fresh statism?? :)

If Obama or anyone in the government for that matter was really concerned about the price of oil, why are we so opposed to not building new refinaries domestically, why do we not drill in alaska, and why do we prevent the drilling in the oceans? If any of these politicians really cared about the price of oil they would be pushing for these measures.

Ah, just because you don't want to become bankrupt by paying for gas, you're willing to cause the arctic slithering legless rat to go extinct! Shame on you! :)
 
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I would rather have an old man for President than a young man who will raise taxes, increase unemployment benefits, pull out of Iraq (which will ruin the Middle East and any US cred left, not to mention skyrocket gas prices), and attempt to increase the size of government by nationalizing healthcare etc..

If Obama or anyone in the government for that matter was really concerned about the price of oil, why are we so opposed to not building new refinaries domestically, why do we not drill in alaska, and why do we prevent the drilling in the oceans? If any of these politicians really cared about the price of oil they would be pushing for these measures.

And, for all you Obama fans, if he does get elected, we will not pull out of Iraq anytime soon, and there will be no nationalized healthcare (too many moderate democrats in the senate). So basically all you get is a President who wants to increase government and give people benefits for not working... Sounds worthless to me.

No... what we have now is what's worthless... Basically liars that have proven that they are incompetent & completely out of touch with the hard working men & women in America.

If you are in the top 2% (and I doubt you are :)) you are right. Your Bush tax cut for the rich will be rolled back. I have no problem with it. I always did think cutting taxes on basically millionaires while running up debt at a staggering $12 BILLION DOLLARS PER MONTH was idiocy.

Increase unemployment benefits for those who got screwed by the Bush economy. Again... I have no problem with helping someone for a few more weeks that has lost their job.

Oil... we do drill in Alaska. Have been for 3 decades. We drill off coast as well. Just not everywhere in Alaska and off every coast. I believe there are plans to add on to some refineries as well.

Senator Obama most certainly WILL pull troops out of Iraq. They will be pulled out cautiously & steadily taking about a year and a half to complete. Troops will still be stationed in the region and there will be a lot more emphasis on Afghanistan. There may be a small amount of troops left in Iraq to help secure a few sensitive areas and the embassy.

I'd be glad to see any changes that made healthcare more affordable and made sure everyone had some access. Complete National Healthcare I can't say for certain. That's a major change. But I have no doubt the heathcare system will be focused on and positive things for the American people will transpire.
 
It's not a "clean bill of health" when it reveals McCain had undisclosed cancer surgery as little as 3 months ago. Surgery that he effectively kept hidden from the public throughout the primary season.

It wasn't "kept hidden" -what BS.

Face it, this old man is obviously suffering from the early stages of dementia..

No medical authority has said that, you have no medical credentials, and you're just blowing hot air - you don't know what you're talking about.

he needs the traitor Joe Lieberman whispering in his ear to tell the difference between Sunni and Shiite.

Like Obama needs someone whispering in his ear what famous news anchor he's been talking to for 20 minutes, and that the US doesn't have 57 states. :D

He has been pronounced "not cured" of his cancer by the director of the melanoma risk-assessment program at Philadelphia's Fox Chase Cancer Center.

That's by a guy who has not seen his test results nor examined him - it's without merit.

Something else to consider, though he likes to trot out his aged mother, McCain's father died at age 70, his grandfather at 61.

So one is 96 and the other is 70 - who can predict what will happen? CERTAINLY not you - nor anyone else - it's a non-useful fact. Obama's mother died an early death at 53 - maybe he'll die an earlier death? Where's HIS health report? Crack smokers tend to develope long-term cardiovascular problems.
 
Whatta you say you take your "humor" to the humor section, and quit cluttering a debate thread. The grownups are have a conversation.

Let's face it when you start a thread... End of McCain age "issue"... and the guy you're talking about is older than Methuselah, who's had three bouts with cancer already, and other problems that just naturally go with old age... the thread's title is the joke. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=425EoaLRR44

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWGYI2DAweE
 
[CO]No... what we have now is what's worthless... Basically liars that have proven that they are incompetent & completely out of touch with the hard working men & women in America.

Bush isn't running for president - nobody told you? :)

If you are in the top 2% (and I doubt you are :)) you are right. Your Bush tax cut for the rich will be rolled back. I have no problem with it. I always did think cutting taxes on basically millionaires while running up debt at a staggering $12 BILLION DOLLARS PER MONTH was idiocy.

The only tax cuts that COULD be made are for the "wealthy" - people who make over $100K pay almost all the taxes. And your "$12 BILLION" is still just fiction.

Increase unemployment benefits for those who got screwed by the Bush economy. Again... I have no problem with helping someone for a few more weeks that has lost their job.

Oooooooo - I thought Obamabots complained about government spending?

Oil... we do drill in Alaska. Have been for 3 decades. We drill off coast as well. Just not everywhere in Alaska and off every coast. I believe there are plans to add on to some refineries as well.

BS - the usual fiction from your overworked bot-brain. :) Drilling is prohibited in hundreds of places in the US, including off the california coast, where there are known oil deposits, and almost everywhere in alaska.

Senator Obama most certainly WILL pull troops out of Iraq. They will be pulled out cautiously & steadily taking about a year and a half to complete. Troops will still be stationed in the region and there will be a lot more emphasis on Afghanistan.

HA HA HA HA!!! Obama would collapse like a cheap card table in afghanistan and everywhere else - the Taliban is probably preparing a take over right now. Bush should at least put in place, as an Obama victory contingency, and publicly announce, evacuation plans for afghan and iraqi allies, to avoid a repeat of the post vietnam war massacres when we cut and ran from there.

There may be a small amount of troops left in Iraq to help secure a few sensitive areas and the embassy.

BLAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH HA HA HA HEEE HEE HEEEEEEEE!! :D

I'd be glad to see any changes that made healthcare more affordable and made sure everyone had some access. Complete National Healthcare I can't say for certain. That's a major change. But I have no doubt the heathcare system will be focused on and positive things for the American people will transpire. [/COLOR]

You have NO CLUE what a disaster socialized medicine would be.
 
Another myth. Prove what you say with a point by point comparison.



What do you mean "fresh"? This is a meaningless term that libs throw around to avoid substantive debate.

ways mccain has changed in the last several years to fall more in line with the bush administration:

in 2000, mccain ran as a moderate who would not seek to overturn roe vs. wade. mccain now supports a constitutional amendment banning abortion except in cases of rape, incest, or risk to the life of the mother.

in 2001, mccain claimed he "could not support" the bush tax cuts because they benefited wealthier individuals disproportionately. now he wants to make them permanent.

mccain called jerry falwell and his ilk "agents of intolerance" in 2002. he has since reversed his course on falwell and actively sought endorsements from rod parsely and john hagee, among other intolerant, bigoted, pig evangelical bobbleheads.

mccain was tortured in vietnam by his captors and held a firm anti-torture stance at the outset of the war on terror. earlier this year he voted against the ban on waterboarding.

mccain has totally abandoned his previous signature issue, campaign finance reform.

he previously WROTE legislation seeking to provide amnesty to some illegal immigrants, and now says he would not even vote for his own bills.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY:

mccain claimed in the run-up to the iraq war that we would have an easy time, that we would be "greeted as liberators," and that there was indisputable evidence that saddam hussein had weapons of mass destruction.
now that we know none of those things were ever true, mccain talks incessantly about how his record of service makes him uniquely qualified to extricate us from a 'tough' situation in iraq, even though he has made no overtures as to his specific ideas on how to do it, apart from following the bush doctrine of 'no diplomacy. EVER.'

as far as "fresh:"

fresh means that obama doesn't have the stink of a career politician on him, at least not yet, and therefore doesn't seem to be driven solely by ambition and lust for power. he talks about things like transparency in government and actually acts on them, which is certainly different, even from ultramaverick campaign finance reform guru john mccain, who in this primary season has broken rules he once sought to pass into law.

most people who vote, ON BOTH SIDES, have zero comprehension of real issues. for the rest of us, it is very easy to access a candidate's ideas and policies via the good ol' intertubez. it's no more accurate to call obama an empty suit because if his "change" and "hope" ideas, than it was to call bush the same for his "compassionate conservative" and "uniter not divider" rhetoric.

right now, obama is offering what i (and many others) want, and yes i understand the implications of his actual positions, in addition to the fact that he's actually inspirational, can speak eloquently, and is not another stodgy old idiot white man. if he were to do a crappy job in his first term, i'd vote against him in 2012, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

finally, on cancer:

you keep claiming that mccain is in perfect health and anyone who claims his cancer will likely recur knows nothing about medicine. i think that's you, dude. having one skin cancer makes you over three times more likely to get another-- he's had at least three, so he's about ten times more likely than another 72-year-old man with a history of extensive sun exposure to get cancer (again). given that melanomas in the face and upper torso can relatively easily metastasize to the lymph nodes, it is a totally reasonable concern. that said, he would be the president and would be receiving the best medical care in the world, so i wouldn't say i expect it to happen, but it's not as outlandish as you claim.

... sorry for the giant post.
 
No... what we have now is what's worthless... Basically liars that have proven that they are incompetent & completely out of touch with the hard working men & women in America.


As already pointed out, Bush is not running again.

If you are in the top 2% (and I doubt you are :)) you are right. Your Bush tax cut for the rich will be rolled back. I have no problem with it. I always did think cutting taxes on basically millionaires while running up debt at a staggering $12 BILLION DOLLARS PER MONTH was idiocy.

Clearly you have no concept of how the tax cuts worked outside the bogus lies you hear on the news. Here is the truth:

1) The tax cuts have not substantially reduced current tax revenues, which were in fact not far from the 2000 pre–tax cut baseline and over the 2003 pre–tax cut baseline in 2006

2) The increased child tax credit, 10 percent tax bracket, and fix of the alternative minimum tax (AMT) reduced tax revenues much more than most of the "tax cuts for the rich"

3) The tax cuts shifted even more of the income tax burden toward the rich.

While high-income households did save more in actual dollars than low-income households, they did so because low-income households pay so little in income taxes in the first place. The same 1 percent tax cut will save more dollars for a millionaire than it will for a middle-class worker simply because the millionaire paid more taxes before the tax cut.

- The economy lost 267,000 jobs in the six quarters before the 2003 tax cuts. In the next six quarters, it added 307,000 jobs, followed by 5 million jobs in the next seven quarters.
- The economy lost 267,000 jobs in the six quarters before the 2003 tax cuts. In the next six quarters, it added 307,000 jobs, followed by 5 million jobs in the next seven quarters.

Critics contend that the economy was already recovering and that this strong expansion would have occurred even without the tax cuts. While some growth was naturally occurring, critics do not explain why such a sudden and dramatic turnaround began at the exact moment that these pro-growth policies were enacted.

While certainly growth has slowed now, it is not related to the Bush tax cuts in any manner, as they only helped the economy.

Increase unemployment benefits for those who got screwed by the Bush economy. Again... I have no problem with helping someone for a few more weeks that has lost their job.

I have a problem with this.. I do not get up and go to work to pay the bills for someone who does not.

Oil... we do drill in Alaska. Have been for 3 decades. We drill off coast as well. Just not everywhere in Alaska and off every coast. I believe there are plans to add on to some refineries as well.

There are many areas that we refuse to drill in that have known oil pockets, if we are so concerned about the price of oil, why not go get them? And we have not built a new refinary in this country since the 1970's.

Senator Obama most certainly WILL pull troops out of Iraq. They will be pulled out cautiously & steadily taking about a year and a half to complete. Troops will still be stationed in the region and there will be a lot more emphasis on Afghanistan. There may be a small amount of troops left in Iraq to help secure a few sensitive areas and the embassy.

So let me get this straight, McCain gets blasted for saying he would not mind if soldiers stay in Iraq for 100 years (as long as they are not dying) to maintain peace and protect American interests and he gets blasted as a war monger.

Obama says he will leave some soldiers in the area and he is somehow some foreign policy genius?
 
You have NO CLUE what a disaster socialized medicine would be.

gee, since france, the uk, norway, canada, iceland, germany, finland, and several others, that DO have socialized medicine, all have BETTER overall population health, and spend LESS per capita on healthcare, i think a lot of people might be willing to give it a shot rather than continue to leave millions of (people/children) without access to so much as routine checkups.

but i guess that makes me a statist... as opposed to advocating censures on freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and reproductive rights, as well as supporting the unceasing domestic wiretapping and surveillance of american citizens, as well as excusing the de facto repeal of habeas corpus for US citizens, like yr boy john "what's a shiite" mccain, which is just dandy, right?


There are many areas that we refuse to drill in that have known oil pockets, if we are so concerned about the price of oil, why not go get them? And we have not built a new refinary in this country since the 1970's.

drilling in anwr would account for less than 5% of our daily oil consumption (AFTER we spent the better part of a decade and several billion dollars setting up the infrastructure), do nothing to reduce the overall price of oil, last less than two decades even at that rate, and keep us on dino-juice life support in the mean time. also, it would violently rape a fragile, protected ecosystem and at least one threatened species that inhabits it. the only reason to support drilling there is the money that would line the pockets of oil executives as a result.

american refinieries are currently operating at peak efficiency and below peak capacity. refinery capacity isn't the problem, supply of crude oil is. that supply has been disrupted and tightened by our voluntary war in iraq. this has caused speculators to drive up bids on oil futures, which has caused the price to rise uncontrollably. you're just parroting the good-little right-wing toady talking points, which really only serve to make this administration's contractor and business associates richer.
 
gee, since france, the uk, norway, canada, iceland, germany, finland, and several others, that DO have socialized medicine, all have BETTER overall population health, and spend LESS per capita on healthcare, i think a lot of people might be willing to give it a shot rather than continue to leave millions of (people/children) without access to so much as routine checkups.

but i guess that makes me a statist... as opposed to advocating censures on freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and reproductive rights, as well as supporting the unceasing domestic wiretapping and surveillance of american citizens, as well as excusing the de facto repeal of habeas corpus for US citizens, like yr boy john "what's a shiite" mccain, which is just dandy, right?

First of all, all of these nations populations are small compared to that of the United States, it is not easy to implement at all.

Further, no one in the United States lacks access to medical care, so get off it. A public hospital cannot turn anyone away from the ER by federal law. If you goto the ER, you will get treatment. So sorry that you have to sit in a line, or you do not find it convenient. It is free, get over it.

Further, almost every person in the United States such as children and the elderly who are poor can quality for medicare of get on SCHIP (a republican idea by the way) and get health care that way. There is this myth of people running around with lack of access to healthcare. If you need it and cannot afford it, goto the ER, and its free. If you feel that is not fair, to bad.

The NSA has been intercepting calls for years and warrants were obtained after the fact anyway in FISA courts. If you know anything about a FISA warrant, you know that you can get one for anything. So basically, by making the process easier on those involved, they are accused of spying domestically when the process has been in place in the same format for years anyway...

Further, there has been no repeal of Habeus Corpus for American citizens. This is a blatant falsehood. In every law that is passed (if you read them) it clearly writes out that all United States citizens are entitled to the same protections as they otherwise would be. Nothing has changed in this regard. Further, this is not the first time that foreigners have been held like this with no charge. The same thing was done to Cuban immigrants, and the Supreme Court upheld the Attorney General's ability to do it, given that he was acting for the President. There was clear legal precedence when Bush started doing this...And what freedom of speech have you lost? What freedom of the press?
 
First of all, all of these nations populations are small compared to that of the United States, it is not easy to implement at all.

that has zero to do with overall health or per capita spending. did i say it would be easy, or just preferable?

Further, no one in the United States lacks access to medical care, so get off it. A public hospital cannot turn anyone away from the ER by federal law. If you goto the ER, you will get treatment. So sorry that you have to sit in a line, or you do not find it convenient. It is free, get over it.

Further, almost every person in the United States such as children and the elderly who are poor can quality for medicare of get on SCHIP (a republican idea by the way) and get health care that way. There is this myth of people running around with lack of access to healthcare. If you need it and cannot afford it, goto the ER, and its free. If you feel that is not fair, to bad.

the er handles emergencies. you cannot just show up to any er in the country and get a routine check-up. the er is not anyone's primary care physician. yes, if you are dying or injured, an emergency room is required to treat you. they are also allowed to charge you after the fact. most hospitals have plans or policies to help alleviate the financial burden for poorer patients or ones without insurance, but that doesn't mean the financial implications aren't significant. for example, my dad, who works for a hospital, needed knee surgery a few years ago. we still had to pay some $8000 or more for it, after insurance, and we make less than 50k per year. maybe you're rich, i don't know, but for most of the country, healthcare costs are a significant worry.

The NSA has been intercepting calls for years and warrants were obtained after the fact anyway in FISA courts. If you know anything about a FISA warrant, you know that you can get one for anything. So basically, by making the process easier on those involved, they are accused of spying domestically when the process has been in place in the same format for years anyway...

the nsa has been wrong the whole time, too, and rather than standing up to the violation of americans' rights, the congress kowtowed to trumped up fears about the big mooooslem boogeyman. and chumps like you buy it because it's only statism when it helps poor people, right?

Further, there has been no repeal of Habeus Corpus for American citizens. This is a blatant falsehood. In every law that is passed (if you read them) it clearly writes out that all United States citizens are entitled to the same protections as they otherwise would be. Nothing has changed in this regard. Further, this is not the first time that foreigners have been held like this with no charge. The same thing was done to Cuban immigrants, and the Supreme Court upheld the Attorney General's ability to do it, given that he was acting for the President. There was clear legal precedence when Bush started doing this...And what freedom of speech have you lost? What freedom of the press?

for one, the post i wrote (if you read it) was talking about things mccain supports, such as an amendment banning flag burning (speech) and a yes-man, sycophant press corps (see bush vs. msnbc crap over the last few weeks).

and those laws, which you claim to have read, allow the administration to:

1. remove habeas corpus for some 12 million other people who are here legally but are not citizens

and

2. define whether or not AMERICAN CITIZENS are or are not enemy combatants, who can then have they rights removed if they as well if they are determined to be enemy combatants

it's not GONE per se, but then again that's what de facto means, isn't it?
 
the er handles emergencies. you cannot just show up to any er in the country and get a routine check-up. the er is not anyone's primary care physician. yes, if you are dying or injured, an emergency room is required to treat you. they are also allowed to charge you after the fact. most hospitals have plans or policies to help alleviate the financial burden for poorer patients or ones without insurance, but that doesn't mean the financial implications aren't significant. for example, my dad, who works for a hospital, needed knee surgery a few years ago. we still had to pay some $8000 or more for it, after insurance, and we make less than 50k per year. maybe you're rich, i don't know, but for most of the country, healthcare costs are a significant worry.

As I said before, a public hospital must treat you when you come in to the ER. A private hospital obviously does not. I do not know anything about your specific case and will not presume to, but I will say again, a public ER must treat you.

Also, lack of a basic check-up is not a lack of healthcare in my opinion.


the nsa has been wrong the whole time, too, and rather than standing up to the violation of americans' rights, the congress kowtowed to trumped up fears about the big mooooslem boogeyman. and chumps like you buy it because it's only statism when it helps poor people, right?

This was going on well before any "mooooooslem" boogeyman. I disagree that the NSA is wrong to do this and I think that it provides a vital national security tool. The recorded calls are not acted upon unless you are plotting some terrorist act, and even then, if you are a US citizen you will get your say in a court of law, so what is the problem? And I am not sure what the NSA tapping calls has to do with the poor...

for one, the post i wrote (if you read it) was talking about things mccain supports, such as an amendment banning flag burning (speech) and a yes-man, sycophant press corps (see bush vs. msnbc crap over the last few weeks).

and those laws, which you claim to have read, allow the administration to:

1. remove habeas corpus for some 12 million other people who are here legally but are not citizens

and

2. define whether or not AMERICAN CITIZENS are or are not enemy combatants, who can then have they rights removed if they as well if they are determined to be enemy combatants

it's not GONE per se, but then again that's what de facto means, isn't it?

I think that there should not be amendment banning the burning of the flag, but I still favor McCain on other positions as opposed to the alternative (be it Obama or Hillary).

12 million people here legally are not citizens, and are not being detained under these laws. This example is not valid in my view.

If a US citizen was picked up on the battlefield in Afghanistan or has been funneling money to terror groups then there is an obvious problem. Further, this falls under treason anyway, and you automatically forfeit all your rights under law when you engage in acts of this kind.

We can debate your points of "de facto" all day long. I get what you are saying, however the mainstream media does not put it this way. People scream about rights that they have "lost", but when it comes down to it they have not actually lost any. Fact is, there is no "de facto", all United States citizens retain the right of habeus corpus, but the new media would lead you to believe other wise.
 
As I said before, a public hospital must treat you when you come in to the ER. A private hospital obviously does not. I do not know anything about your specific case and will not presume to, but I will say again, a public ER must treat you.

Also, lack of a basic check-up is not a lack of healthcare in my opinion.

must treat, can still charge. can still charge A LOT.

lacking basic check-ups is the reason the us has such low population health levels (that and the obesity crisis). people get diabetes that doesn't get managed, people get cancer that doesn't get caught until it's too late, people get pneumonia, staph infections, all kinds of crap that doesn't have to kill them but sometimes does because they're afraid of not being able to pay their hospital bills.

This was going on well before any "mooooooslem" boogeyman. I disagree that the NSA is wrong to do this and I think that it provides a vital national security tool. The recorded calls are not acted upon unless you are plotting some terrorist act, and even then, if you are a US citizen you will get your say in a court of law, so what is the problem? And I am not sure what the NSA tapping calls has to do with the poor...

if you don't have anything to hide, you don't have anything to worry about, right? nevermind that there is a document that is supposed to protect us from warrantless intrusions into our privacy.
the thing about statism comes from the first thing i wrote responding to libsmasher, then you agreed with him, then i kept running with it. try and keep up.

I think that there should not be amendment banning the burning of the flag, but I still favor McCain on other positions as opposed to the alternative (be it Obama or Hillary).

12 million people here legally are not citizens, and are not being detained under these laws. This example is not valid in my view.

If a US citizen was picked up on the battlefield in Afghanistan or has been funneling money to terror groups then there is an obvious problem. Further, this falls under treason anyway, and you automatically forfeit all your rights under law when you engage in acts of this kind.

We can debate your points of "de facto" all day long. I get what you are saying, however the mainstream media does not put it this way. People scream about rights that they have "lost", but when it comes down to it they have not actually lost any. Fact is, there is no "de facto", all United States citizens retain the right of habeus corpus, but the new media would lead you to believe other wise.

the president doesn't (shouldn't) get to decide what treason is. but thanks to the bush administration, he does now! i'm not saying that bush is imprisoning bunches of innocent americans without charges, but he COULD, and that's scary as hell.
 
His being "around forever" means he has depth of experience, as opposed to Obama the intern who has only his "change" mantra.

golf claps for you....I guess you must not recall that I am not a Obama or McCain Supporter...and have said that McCain's Experience is one thing that I like about him, while Obama's lack of it is something I don't like that much. That said Bush W was not exactly a Foreign Policy expert coming in. Then Again, look how poorly that worked out.

But for both of the reasons sited for both, its a reason why the VP is very important to me this year. I would love to see Biden, or Chuck Hagel as VPs....even better, Biden as McCain's, and Hagel as Obama's...just to make it interesting. But I know Biden will not be with McCain, he has said so, and his view of McCain's Iraq Policy is to far apart.


Better yet Biden/Hagel for the Independence party in 08 :)
 
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golf claps for you....I guess you must not recall that I am not a Obama or McCain Supporter...and have said that McCain's Experience is one thing that I like about him, while Obama's lack of it is something I don't like that much. That said Bush W was not exactly a Foreign Policy expert coming in. Then Again, look how poorly that worked out.

But for both of the reasons sited for both, its a reason why the VP is very important to me this year. I would love to see Biden, or Chuck Hagel as VPs....even better, Biden as McCain's, and Hagel as Obama's...just to make it interesting. But I know Biden will not be with McCain, he has said so, and his view of McCain's Iraq Policy is to far apart.


Better yet Biden/Hagel for the Independence party in 08 :)

If I am Obama I think you have to ask Richardson.
 
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