Did Jesus know he was going to die?

[dahermit]

However the naturalistic approach that says that the stories were written by non-witnesses hundreds of years later is in contradiction to the fact that the letters were already widely distributed long before that much time passed.

What physical evidence exists that "...the letters were already widely distributed long before that much time passed."?

 

[Dr.Who]

What physical evidence exists that "...the letters were already widely distributed long before that much time passed."?

We have fragments of documents that can be dated accurately. As just one example, the dead sea scrolls contain many NT letters and we know when they were sealed up. We also have letters from early church fathers who made references to the letters and quoted them often while also describing what was happening in their world at the time - thus giving us dates at which the letters must have preceded.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Why are you discussing physical evidence?

You guys don't need that.

God is one of seven sons of an evil genius called Moronicus Unquestioningicus.

It must be true because you can't prove it isn't

 

[nate.45]

Yes, he died to fulfill prophesy and save mankind.

Seems foolish doesn't it? For God to make himself weak and sacrifice himself to save mankind. The whole thing is ridiculous to wise men like Dawkinsrocks.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. I Corinthians Ch. 1 vs. 18

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. I Corinthians Ch. 1 vs. 19

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. I Corinthians Ch. 1 vs. 25

As to why God cried out upon the cross, it to was all part of fuffiling prophesy. Someone else noted the first verse of Psalms 22.

My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? Ps. 22:1

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matt. 27:46

Remember that while he was in fact 100% God, he was also 100% man, and I imagine any of us after being beaten, forced to carry the cross, being nailed to the cross and hanging on it for nine hours, would cry out. It was much more than just physical pain though, he was bearing the sin and sorrow, of every man who had ever been and every man who ever would be.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

And you believe all this nonesense?

What kind of father, who can do anything to save the world that he designed, chooses the option of having a son that he knows will be tortured and muirdered in a most barbaric way?

Considering that god didn't have to make the world at all and then could have just waved his mgic wand to fix all the **** he had made don't you think that choosing the option of torture and murder of your son is a pretty vicious thing to do?

See, just more evidence that if god existed he is a monster.

God made the world knowing how it would turn out.

He knew when he made the world he would have to have a son that would be murdered.

Maybe he should have just not made the world

 

[Dr.Who]

Why are you discussing physical evidence?

because it is relevant.

You guys don't need that.

Sure we do. There has been no claim that the written paper that the documents are written on has been generated supernaturally.

God is one of seven sons of an evil genius called Moronicus Unquestioningicus.

It must be true because you can't prove it isn't

That would be the wrong conclusion to draw using the rules of logic.

You COULD say that it can't be disproven but you cannot say that it must be true. It might be time for you to learn the rules of logic.

When we discuss the existence of God I have never said it must be true because it it can't be disproven. I have said that you are in error when you state that he does not exist and that I do have other evidence that supports the idea that he does exist.

 

[Shadow]

am neither catholic or christian so I dont buy into the trinity at all, and I am in no way alone in that thinking.

No , you are not. I am pretty much in the same "category"~ for what it is worth.


Interesting & thought provocative question: Seems he would have had a pretty good idea that he was going to die as the final events unfolded. Maybe he gambled on his own "beliefs" and that "his "father" would save him in some last minute "miracle". "why has thou forsaken me"?? (IF that is an accurate quote) Sounds like he had the realization that no one was going to "save" him......... and even suggests a momentary doubt about his own beliefs. (maybe THAT was his moment of enlightenment as in reality seeping into belief)


DId he intuate that he would die?? Well, he must have known that his teachings were a threat to the Politicians of the times. As was he....... due to the fact that folks were forming a group / following of him. The political system would see this as a threat too....as it stood the risk of losing control over whatever the population was at the time.


He did intuate or "knew" (probably from his understanding of human nature) that he would be "betrayed". He seems to have been a very sensitive , highly intuitive and perceptive person. (and this could have been a threat to others too. ) It is very hard to place oneself into THAT ERA and see things as folks percieved them at that time.


Not sure we of contemporary & modern times can really understand the minds of those that lived in that era.

 

[foggedinn]

Not until some time after his baptism, when the Holy Spirit decended on him.

When John the Baptist saw Jesus, he said; "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world".

This was a reference to the sacraficial lamb on the Day of Atonement described in Leviticus 16. As the one sent to prepare the way of the Lord, make straight his paths, John also knew that he had to die.

Speaking truth to power is always a dangerous proposition. John spoke openly about Herod's adulterous relationship with his brother's wife, causing Salome to ask for his head on a platter.

Jesus, as annoited son of David, was stating clearly his claim to the kingship of the Jews. The Pharisees understood this, and I'm sure Herod did also.

 

[Dr.Who]

Not until some time after his baptism, when the Holy Spirit decended on him.

When John the Baptist saw Jesus, he said; "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world".

This was a reference to the sacraficial lamb on the Day of Atonement described in Leviticus 16. As the one sent to prepare the way of the Lord, make straight his paths, John also knew that he had to die.

Thanks for sharing Foggedinn. That was one of the passages where he shows that he knew that he was going to die prior to events unfolding.

He also told the people in the temple that if they destroyed his body that He would raise it again in three days.

 

[9sublime]

If God the Christ asked God the Father and they are in fact the same God then you might be right He would not need to ask any questions at all. But not needing to do something and doing it anyway is just a fact of life. Plenty of people do not need to do something but they do it anyway. I do not believe I need to ask God for anything (He already knows my needs) but I believe that He likes to be asked so I do it.

Yes but surely the son of God doesn't need to waste time doing things he doesn't need to do such as technically talking to himself.

And interestingly how have you come to the conclusion that God likes to be asked something? What you think God likes when you talk to him is not a rational argument to challenge the obvious logical paradox that is Jesus talking to God. What you have during a religious experience with God is totally subjective and only applies to you and your knowledge. For me, on the outside, it is not valid proof. Whether or not God actually helped you with your needs is a totally different question too.

But what about the assumption that underlies all of this? That He would have known the answer and so would not need to ask. God the Christ does not act exactly the same as God the Father. They are the same person but they have different roles. e.g Jesus has a body the Father does not. It says in at least one of the Gospels that Jesus learned. If He learned then He did not know everything.

Jesus learning, despite being God, omnipotent and omnipresent, is another totally ridiculous and illogical idea.

 

[9sublime]

Not until some time after his baptism, when the Holy Spirit decended on him.

When John the Baptist saw Jesus, he said; "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world".

This was a reference to the sacraficial lamb on the Day of Atonement described in Leviticus 16. As the one sent to prepare the way of the Lord, make straight his paths, John also knew that he had to die.

Speaking truth to power is always a dangerous proposition. John spoke openly about Herod's adulterous relationship with his brother's wife, causing Salome to ask for his head on a platter.

Jesus, as annoited son of David, was stating clearly his claim to the kingship of the Jews. The Pharisees understood this, and I'm sure Herod did also.

But if other parts of the Bible say that Jesus asked God why he had to die etc, the Bible is only showing itself up to be totally contradictory too.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Hey, the bible is spot on.

Haven't you had a chat with a snake recently, or walked across the bed of the Red Sea, or seen someone come back to life 3 days after dying, or been for a ride on a boat with two of every species and all their food on board, or gone for a walk on the sea, or turned rods into snakes, or seen walls fall down at the sound of trumpets, or seen leprosy cured etc etc.

It is a truly reliable piece of evidence, nay proof of god's existence and is beyond doubt.

 

[9sublime]

Sarcastic cliche comments don't look any good on their own mate, however obvious and tempting they are, you just look like the average uninformed athiest on the street now.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

I have read the bible twice and feel more than qualified to quote from the many ludicrous passages contained therein.

The kind of nonesense spouted by christians is barely worthy of sarcasm.

It is peurile.

 

[9sublime]

You are just as bigoted in your militant atheist beliefs as thoe who try and force their religion on others, as I've said in another thread. You are an athiest equivilant of the people you hate so much.