Did Jesus know he was going to die?

[Pandora]

Yes he knew He was gong to die. Which is why He refers to Himself as the lamb that was going to be sacrificed.

And the reason he says: "why hast thou forsaken me" is because he was quoting the first line of Psalm 22 which is a song about how God does not forsake. The Psalm poetically starts with one mood and gradually shifts to another.


Note also that His last words on the cross were Aramaic for "it is finished" and the last words of the Psalm are Hebrew for "He has done it." Perhaps if translation were not such a tricky business these two statements that reconcile pretty well would reconcile even better.

Hey what a great post. I never thought about it that way


thank you ~!

 

[dahermit]

And the reason he says: "why hast thou forsaken me" is because he was quoting the first line of Psalm 22 which is a song about how God does not forsake.
[/QUOTE]I see. So, it is your contention that after three hours with nails through his wrists and feet, pressure on his chest that restricted him from breathing, a wound in his side, instead of an utterance of pain and desperation, he waxed poetic and his words were a cleverly coded message to the faithful. Yes, I am sure that must be it.

However,

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

He was not delivered was he?

 

[pocketfullofshells]

It is usually accepted by Bible scholars and believers that Jesus Knew that he was going to die on the cross for sometime before it actually happened. In fact, believers often state that his dying was part of God's plan and Jesus, being the son of God, was well aware that he was going to be crucified. There are statements in the Bible that support that he was aware of his fate, about the time he entered the city and the people strew palm fronds about his feet (Palm Sunday celebration).
If he knew what was in store for him, why did he say: "My father why hast thou forsaken me?" He knew what the plan was, he knew that it would be painfully. It lacks logical sense. If he was in pain that he could not bear, he would have asked for the pain to stop. If he could perform miracles, stopping pain should have been easy.
The more logical answer is: He thought he was a deity, but was not. The accounts of his knowing that he was going to die are not true. Being "forsaken" is not a logical response from a deity who is in on the plan which was proceeding as planed, unless the "plan" were only in his mind.
Maybe "forsaken" is an error in translation?

read the 4 accounts of Paul, Luke , ect, none tell the same story, some he crying out why have you forsaken me, one says he was quite, one says he acted a diff way...ext. Thing is that I believe Paul wrote the first one, and others are based on his, but all 4 chose different things to emphasize and are shown in there writing.

Also some say that for his death to attone for all sins of man, he must die as a man, to suffer as man, not to be killed as a god , thus just before put on the cross he was made all man for that time..

Just thoughts, Im not christian so who knows

 

[9sublime]

If Jesus IS God, logically, he not only knows that God is going to kill him, but he also knows he is going to kill himself.

So the very fact that he asks God a question, or prays to God at any point in the Bible shows that he is not actually God, because you would not need to ask yourself a question outloud or pray to yourself.

 

[Not Amused]

This is not the intent of my post. Let us not get lost in semantics. Please answer the question embedded in the original post: Was Jesus a deity, or someone who thought he was the son of God?

The relevance to your question is rather profound actually and does not consist of us getting lost in semantics at all. I do not understand the intent of your post, unless of course your own teaching of Christianity differs markedly to the norm.

The Catholic and Orthodox churches, in fact almost all mainstream religions accept the original, or a version of the Nicene creed. In which case one would assume that if God/Jesus was actually crucified, then he of course must have known he was going to die as you put it.

 

[Not Amused]

If Jesus IS God, logically, he not only knows that God is going to kill him, but he also knows he is going to kill himself.

So the very fact that he asks God a question, or prays to God at any point in the Bible shows that he is not actually God, because you would not need to ask yourself a question outloud or pray to yourself.

Exactly Sublime, which is why I put up my first post. In doing so, for some inexplicable reason I was accused of getting 'lost' in semantics

 

[Not Amused]

Did Jesus say that? No. It was the Catholic Church. If you believe this, then I suggest that you put your faith in the words of Constantine and Pope Gregory...not Jesus.
I have a question for you: What do you think Jesus would think of the rules and allowances, and statues of the Catholic Church in "His" name? Do you think he would approve?

The Apostles said it actually, via the original Apostles/Nicene creed, which most mainstream religions use each and every Sunday and on high days and holidays and also believe, not just the Catholic Church.

I suggest you do a little research my friend.

Also, as I do not believe that Jesus existed in a form other than possibly as an all too human 'faith healer', without being remotely 'holy', I have no real interest in anything he would approve, or disapprove of to be really honest with you.

 

[Dr.Who]

And the reason he says: "why hast thou forsaken me" is because he was quoting the first line of Psalm 22 which is a song about how God does not forsake.
I see. So, it is your contention that after three hours with nails through his wrists and feet, pressure on his chest that restricted him from breathing, a wound in his side, instead of an utterance of pain and desperation, he waxed poetic and his words were a cleverly coded message to the faithful. Yes, I am sure that must be it.

However, He was not delivered was he?

In the OP you said that he said it. If you want to now claim that it is just the bible that said it I accept that change.

If he is God then it would not at all be unreasonable for him to quote a well known scripture that he believed was written specifically about the situation He was experiencing.

And the usual explanation about being delivered from the sword is that he did not die by sword but was already dead by the time the sword was put in his side (the blood had separated into it's clear and dark parts).

 

[Dr.Who]

If Jesus IS God, logically, he not only knows that God is going to kill him, but he also knows he is going to kill himself.

So the very fact that he asks God a question, or prays to God at any point in the Bible shows that he is not actually God, because you would not need to ask yourself a question outloud or pray to yourself.

Putting aside that we have already given some pretty strong evidence that he was not asking a question, let's talk about what it would mean.

If God the Christ asked God the Father and they are in fact the same God then you might be right He would not need to ask any questions at all. But not needing to do something and doing it anyway is just a fact of life. Plenty of people do not need to do something but they do it anyway. I do not believe I need to ask God for anything (He already knows my needs) but I believe that He likes to be asked so I do it.

But what about the assumption that underlies all of this? That He would have known the answer and so would not need to ask. God the Christ does not act exactly the same as God the Father. They are the same person but they have different roles. e.g Jesus has a body the Father does not. It says in at least one of the Gospels that Jesus learned. If He learned then He did not know everything.

 

[dahermit]

In the OP you said that he said it. If you want to now claim that it is just the bible that said it I accept that change.

I was "quoting" from the Bible; I was not there.

If he is God then it would not at all be unreasonable for him to quote a well known scripture that he believed was written specifically about the situation He was experiencing.

If he did not feel the agony of what the latter stages of crucification must have been, then yes, he would likely have the wherewithal to quote from Psalms. Otherwise, if he feel the pain as a man would, it would not be likely. The whole point of the story, according to believers, is that he did suffer horribly.

And the usual explanation about being delivered from the sword is that he did not die by sword but was already dead by the time the sword was put in his side (the blood had separated into it's clear and dark parts).

A small divergent point; the rest of process would have had its effect on one's inclination to wax philosophic and quote from the Psalms.

In all, which scenario is most likely? He (if he existed and it happened) did and said the things listed in the Bible including the resurrection. Or, a few hundred years after the fact, in order to deify a myth, the authors of the alleged incidents to take poetic license with the facts to support their personal convictions? How likely is it for a human who has been dead for three days to come back to life? Nevertheless, writing about it hundreds of years later, the authors know that evidence to the contrary has long gone and it is harder to dispute the outrageous claims.

 

[Dr.Who]

I was "quoting" from the Bible; I was not there.

Yes I know.

If he did not feel the agony of what the latter stages of crucification must have been, then yes, he would likely have the wherewithal to quote from Psalms. Otherwise, if he feel the pain as a man would, it would not be likely. The whole point of the story, according to believers, is that he did suffer horribly.

I am with the others and I believe he did feel the agony. It is possible that he intended to quote the whole psalm and was only able to get out the first line. But, again in agreement with you, as none of us were there we do not hve any idea how hard or easy it was for him. it is also possible that he had no difficulty quoting and that was all he wanted to say. It is even possible that he had no strength on his own to quote but that he was empowered by God. How much ability he had on his own as a man to do whatever becomes kind of irrelevant since if God has His hand in this then any miracle could have intervened.

In all, which scenario is most likely? He (if he existed and it happened) did and said the things listed in the Bible including the resurrection. Or, a few hundred years after the fact, in order to deify a myth, the authors of the alleged incidents to take poetic license with the facts to support their personal convictions? How likely is it for a human who has been dead for three days to come back to life? Nevertheless, writing about it hundreds of years later, the authors know that evidence to the contrary has long gone and it is harder to dispute the outrageous claims.

If one were to take a naturalistic approach then I think the likely is that the letters describing the event took place within the lifetimes of the witnesses. One would also have to assume that they took liberties in describing the facts.

If one takes the approach that the world is not totally naturalistic then the intervention of God which is claimed by the authors allows for any logical and internally consistent explanation. In other words the author can claim that God raised Him on the third day but he cannot claim that God raised him on the third day and on the fourth day at the same time - that would be illogical.

However the naturalistic approach that says that the stories were written by non-witnesses hundreds of years later is in contradiction to the fact that the letters were already widely distributed long before that much time passed.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

If Jesus IS God, logically, he not only knows that God is going to kill him, but he also knows he is going to kill himself.

So the very fact that he asks God a question, or prays to God at any point in the Bible shows that he is not actually God, because you would not need to ask yourself a question outloud or pray to yourself.

unless the point is that as in human form he must follow Jewish Law, and be a example...something he could not do.

 

[Dr.Who]

unless the point is that as in human form he must follow Jewish Law, and be a example...something he could not do.

Do you mean that you think he could not follow Jewish law or that he could not be an example or that he could not do something else?

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Isn't everyone going to die?

 

[Dr.Who]

Isn't everyone going to die?

Everyone's body will die. So yes. Which would mean that Jesus knew he was going to die. But that is not what the thread is about, is it? the question was did he know he was going to die in that time and place and manner?

But since we are getting off topic: Everyone's soul continues on. Some poeple are spiritually dead right now - walking around. Some people are spiritually alive - and also walking around. After the body dies what becomes of the soul? The ones that are alive go to be with God. What about the one's that are spiritually dead? If there is no reconciliation after the physical death then they will be doomed to an eternity without God.