Did Jesus commit suicide?

[Mare Tranquillity]

For those who do not believe in the concept of god, viewing the stories in the bible from the human perspective make no sense. To those who believe in God, the stories have to be looked at from God's point of view, to the best it can be discerned. I was once an atheist, so I understand these differing points of view.

Jesus had free will, he chose to make the sacrifice he did. Could God just forgive mankind their sins? Apparently not. Apparently God is limited in that He can't violate His justice (which supersedes law). The wages of sin is death, and that price had to be paid.

There are many instances where people are recorded in the Bible questioning God's actions and motivations. They rarely receive an answer, nor are they usually punished for questioning. No surprise if you don't think God exists, comforting if you do.

I've always wondered why atheists are often so hostile to religion, especially Christianity. Given that almost all progressive political thought is a direct descendant of Jesus' Golden Rule, and the Beatitudes, you'd think you'd cut Him some slack. Yeah, His teachings have been misused by man for their own selfish needs, but men do that with every belief structure--even progressivism.

I love it when people put limits on God or claim to be able to see the world from God's point of view.

Why do you assume that people who have problems with the Bible are atheists? I have no problem with God, it's the crap in the Bible that gives me the creeps. If Christians actually followed the six most important words in the Bible, then there would be no problem, but they don't. They don't follow them, they don't preach them, and they don't even talk about them. Why? That's easy, because they are the six most difficult words to put into action, it's much easier to take the violence and hatred from the Bible and practice that instead. If Christians were not forcing their beliefs on me, then I would have nothing to say about them. Notice that I don't comment on Islam, as yet they have done nothing to me.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Nope, I just realise how damaging religion is. It promotes ignorance and discrimination and has been used to justify the vile activities of many of its subscribers.

It is a lie that is used to impoverish and dominate people and it is about time people grew up and got rid of this blight on humanity

Religion can be good for some people. My brothers are classic examples of this. Neither one has an internal compass to direct their actions and they admit that. Both of them want the structure imposed on them by their religion, it makes them feel safe, it tells them how to act, it gives them like-minded people to congregate with every week. That's good, it has helped my one brother remain sober for more than 30 years now, it has kept his marriage together, and given him a sense of safety.

The problem arises when people like my brothers assume that everyone needs this same kind of guidance and that they have God's Own Truth to share, but when people don't want it or disagree with it they feel endangered and try to force others to obey. And therein lies the crux of the problem.

 

[Pandora]

In this case Jesus was nailed up for our (supposed) sins. Where was the consequence for us?

the wages of sin is death. Yeshua hamashiach aka Jesus paid the price.

I cant explain why God decided that there must be consequences or why he decided the wages of sin would be death. I am just telling you that is what scriptures say about it.

You have the free will not to accept it or believe it, thats the cool part

Some people think after death you go to purgatory, and that is where you pay the price of time for your sins and wait out what ever time it takes to purge you of them. I personally think thats a good idea but not sure if I believe it (as presented)

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

the wages of sin is death. Yeshua hamashiach aka Jesus paid the price.

I cant explain why God decided that there must be consequences or why he decided the wages of sin would be death. I am just telling you that is what scriptures say about it.

You have the free will not to accept it or believe it, thats the cool part

Some people think after death you go to purgatory, and that is where you pay the price of time for your sins and wait out what ever time it takes to purge you of them. I personally think thats a good idea but not sure if I believe it (as presented)

The story is just as unbelievable as God ordering Abraham to sacrifice his son, it paints God as being a monster, just like many scriptures do. A God that would do what the Old Testament says and then turn around and send the message to people that they should love others as themselves, turn the other cheek, return good for evil, etc. is too schizo for me. I think the Bible is mostly nonsense, but I have a lot of faith in the goodness of God.

 

[Pandora]

The story is just as unbelievable as God ordering Abraham to sacrifice his son, it paints God as being a monster, just like many scriptures do. A God that would do what the Old Testament says and then turn around and send the message to people that they should love others as themselves, turn the other cheek, return good for evil, etc. is too schizo for me. I think the Bible is mostly nonsense, but I have a lot of faith in the goodness of God.

I understand what you mean and you have the right to take it or not take it.
No one has the right to judge you for it or make you accept it.

I have a different take on the Abraham story so I see it a bit differently than you but I do understand where you are coming from.

 

[rationalist]

There is no free will under the christian idea of god.

It is logically impossible.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

There is no free will under the christian idea of god.

It is logically impossible.

That is largely true, if God is holding eternal torment over the heads of people then they don't really have free will, but not all Christian sects believe in Hell or eternal punishment.

 

[rationalist]

Or if god has a plan then everyone has to play their part.

Judas had to grass Jesus up, Peter had to deny him. I have to type this message. The devil has to tempt people.

It is all god's will, not ours.

Or else god does not have a plan and he does not know what will happen. If he does know what will happen the future is fixed and if he doesn't he is not god.

 

[samsara15]

If Sarah Palin gets elected next time, we will find out what Hell is.

 

[Pandora]

There is no free will under the christian idea of god.

It is logically impossible.

Did you learn christianity from the calvinism tulip?

 

[Pandora]

Or if god has a plan then everyone has to play their part.

Judas had to grass Jesus up, Peter had to deny him. I have to type this message. The devil has to tempt people.

It is all god's will, not ours.

Or else god does not have a plan and he does not know what will happen. If he does know what will happen the future is fixed and if he doesn't he is not god.

If I were able to manipulate time (and it would be easy if I had invented time)
I could go to tomorrow and read what you will post, go back to the day before you joined and made a blog post about what you would write on what day.

It doesnt mean I made you do it, all it means is I saw you would at a point in time.

 

[citizenzen]

I could go to tomorrow and read what you will post, go back to the day before you joined and made a blog post about what you would write on what day.

It doesnt mean I made you do it, all it means is I saw you would at a point in time.

Interesting theory, but what about these passages from Genesis...

8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"​

How do you hide from God? Is He all knowing... except when you're behind a tree? Pandora, you describe a God who can travel through time and thereby know our past, present and future and know everything about us, yet the Bible clearly shows he can't even keep track of the only two humans on Earth.

How do you reconcile this?

 

[Pandora]

Interesting theory, but what about these passages from Genesis...

8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"​

How do you hide from God? Is He all knowing... except when you're behind a tree? Pandora, you describe a God who can travel through time and thereby know our past, present and future and know everything about us, yet the Bible clearly shows he can't even keep track of the only two humans on Earth.

How do you reconcile this?

Have you ever played with your children?
asking them.. where are you ? when you know exactly where they are??

Or caught your child sneaking in the candy jar or cookie jar
and you ask them what are you doing?

you know what they are doing but you want them to think about what they are doing.


Adam and Eve had just done something The Creator told them not to do. He was treating them just like you or I woud treat our own children in a situation where we caught them doing something that we told them not to do.

Its clear The Creator knew where they were and what they had done, and he confronted them on it in a way more like a parent would a child.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

If Sarah Palin gets elected next time, we will find out what Hell is.

Geez Louise, Sam, you know how to just cut straight through all of the mental midget B.S. that the 'right winged nut jobs' just love to spew...LMAO

 

[citizenzen]

Its clear The Creator knew where they were and what they had done, and he confronted them on it in a way more like a parent would a child.

How is that clear when it isn't actually what was written? Oh well, you never claimed that the Bible was literal truth, so I shouldn't argue too much if you add a little creative spin to it.

But... I wonder....

Why didn't God just erase his mistake when he had the chance early on? Adam and Eve screwed up royally, but for some reason, instead of starting over, God decided to continue playing a bad hand. That poor choice became apparent quite quickly when Cain slew Abel, and then went downhill from there. Soon God decides to wipe out every creature on the Earth in the Flood. Since this should have been something an omniscient being would have known beforehand, what was the point of letting it proceed after that original sin?

Christians see this as the fault of Adam and Eve, while I see it clearly as the fault of God. How do you rationalize that a perfect, all-knowing creator could make so many mistakes?