California Proposition 8

[Sihouette]

Funny, isn't it, when members of a small minority begin to fight back against the lies and persecution heaped upon them

Acutally no, you ruin your own "cause" if you stoop to that of your enemy. It's also helpful to know who your enemies are and who they aren't. I'm not persecuting you. So why attack me? I'm just pointing out that you are ill and deserving of compassion. Look back at my posts and find where I said, beyond marriage, that sexual deviants be chastised in any other way.

I agree with Darwin, "Don't ask, don't tell". And yet he thinks we see it differently...lol....

Of course marriage, like any ideal, is farcical. But we have ideals for a reason, as something to shoot for. As anchors while we sail the high seas. You do understand the concept of Pandora's Box, don't you?

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

You are the sick one, not Mare

 

[Sihouette]

Definitive diagnosis: Sihouette "sick"

Dawson: sychophant....

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

If supporting a reasonable person against an intolerant sexually repressed and obsessed fundamentalist like you makes me a sycophant then I am guilty as charged

 

[Sihouette]

So Mare has issues with the male gender, cuts off his whanger and wears high heels in lieu of therapy, and heaps abuse on anyone who calls him out on it, and you consider him reasonable eh?

*Jots in notebook*

About the animal thing, perhaps you are confused....nah?

Anyway..

We are complex animals to be sure, but we bleed, have internal organs and hormones and nervous systems parallel to our animal friends. So we are, therefore, animals and have similar drives. Human animals have the most capacity to ignore instinct and learn from social examples. We are highly malleable post-birth. But the funny trade off is that we still have our hormonal drives, but we then learn them to be vented in different ways...around puberty. We meanwhile go about our business of higher functioning, while still under the rule of our animal drives.

That's why homosexuals feel their preference is inborn. Because it is fixed in stone by the time they reach adulthood and seems to go right to their DNA. They cannot remember the series of steps that imprinted the preference, only the preference itself. That's the weird way we learn things.

The problem with modeling things for younger people as normal, is that we can model anything for young humans as normal and they will imitate us and believe that it is normal. If nazi Germany had won, it would be "normal" to put jews and ethnics to death in the interest of maintaining white racial purity. Yes, it would. If enough people put the stamp of normalcy on [sky's the limit], the thing then becomes "normal".

Gays are seeking to make their unions "normal" in the eyes of society. I believe they are doing this to increase their numbers of potential sexual partners as was indicated in item 10 of The Ten Reasons Gays Chase Straights http://www.thefreelibrary.com/10+reasons+gays+chase+straights%3a+we've+all+done+it%2c+and+some+of+us+do...-a0106560150 . Therefore, they are seeking to recruit by pleading for society to condone their deviant sexual unions as sacred.

It's a shame that their conditioning fixated them in such a way as to only find pleasure copulating with members of the same gender. Somewhere along the line, someone is to blame for this conditioning, and it's not the homosexual himself. So compassion is a must. But equally, keeping the situation from becoming generational and exponential is a must.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

You are a true christian.

Intolerant, ill-informed and obsessed with sexuality.

You believe in a beardy guy in the sky who kills nearly everyone in the world if he doesn't like what they are doing.

That makes perfect sense.

You are the one who needs help.

 

[Sihouette]

I am not a christian at all. Buddhism is closer to what I practice. With a smidgen of Hinduism, a pinch of the 10 Commandments, a dash of shamanism and a shaker of common sense.

You're forgetting I was the one here fighting tooth and nail with neocons to keep the christian right from stealing another four years from us..

It's interesting that you've decided as well to pigeonhole me, and the correllary given, that you think Mare is "reasonable"..

What do you think of The Ten Reasons Gays Chase Straights, as relates to this debate Dawkin?

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/10+reasons+gays+chase+straights%3a+we've+all+done+it%2c+and+some+of+us+do...-a0106560150

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

I couldn't give a **** about it is my view.

You seem to have picked the worst bits of several religions and come up with your own puritanical version that would be more at home in Boston 300 years ago.

Discrimination on grounds of sexuality is not far from discrimintaion on grounds of race, colour or creed.

But then many religious fundamentalists like a bit (lot) of that too don't they?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Acutally no, you ruin your own "cause" if you stoop to that of your enemy. It's also helpful to know who your enemies are and who they aren't. I'm not persecuting you. So why attack me? I'm just pointing out that you are ill and deserving of compassion. Look back at my posts and find where I said, beyond marriage, that sexual deviants be chastised in any other way.

I agree with Darwin, "Don't ask, don't tell". And yet he thinks we see it differently...lol....

Of course marriage, like any ideal, is farcical. But we have ideals for a reason, as something to shoot for. As anchors while we sail the high seas. You do understand the concept of Pandora's Box, don't you?

The person who attends a lynching may not actually help string up the ni88er, but being there and shouting support makes one culpable.

You have advocated, promoted, supported, and argued for the legal persecution that gay and trans people suffer in this country. You have diagnosed and proposed treatment without medical, biological, or psychological training. You in essence are like the Christians who were in favor of keeping black enslaved because it was common knowledge that dark skin is the Mark of Cain and slavery to whites is their punishment.

The things you advocate justify the beating and killing of us because you say we are "twinkling" the children and seducing them into lives of sin. People have always felt justified in protecting their children--even from imaginary dangers. You try to fan the fear, you try to justify it with feedlot and farrowing cage psychology. I'm amazed that you haven't used the example of hens in battery cages. Well... you probably don't raise poultry in large numbers so you don't know.

You are just pointing out that I am ill. Yep, and look at what people in your religion did to mentally ill people--they tortured them and beat them to drive out the demons. And those people were just as well educated as you are and just as absolutely sure of their own infallibility. Like all dinosaurs you'll die of old age and people will look back in horror like most of us do now at the treatment of women, children, blacks, indigenous peoples, and even how you treated each other with your internecine wars.

 

[Sihouette]

Which religion?

Or am I officially a "Fundie" in spite of everything I told you?

The fact that anyone would step up to defend chopping their genitals off because of a mental imbalance just goes to show how far the madness has gone.

And these are the same people wanting us as a society to condone as an example for generations to follow in marriage.

It's just utter madness and yet those caught up in the madness see it as perfectly sane. So loggerheads is what it is. You want me to tell my kids it's OK to mutilate their body beyond normal function out of one side of my mouth; and out of the other you want me to tell them not to harm their body with drugs.

It can't be done. You're asking too much.

For Nazi Germany, it was "normal" to exterminate jews on a daily basis. Their youth were taught this by their elders' examples. Even today we have groups called "nazi youth"..sprung from that wrong thinking, that "normalized madness". What you're asking for is not only foolhardy, it's dangerous. I can foresee without any trouble at all "youth groups for gender change surgery", cropping up in teenagers who have issues with their gender like Mare does, due to whatever trauma they associated with the gender..and foregoing therapy for quick-fix surgery...losing the ability to have normal sexual pleasure, like Mare has...all because we "normalized" transgenderism. Extrapolate to homosexuality, we already are seeing a rise in numbers of kids in highschool opting for homosexuality...yes, I said "opting"...because it's chic, it's trendy. And we know how youngsters love trends...

If we have every third couple on the block a married gay couple, just imagine how trendy that would be? More youth would opt for gay relationships and there be more of a playing field for homosexuals who are already fixed and unchangeable since puberty.

I realize the statistics favor more loneliness in homosexuals. But that doesn't mean we need to retool reality to incorporate the madness..

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Which religion?
Or am I officially a "Fundie" in spite of everything I told you?

The fact that anyone would step up to defend chopping their genitals off because of a mental imbalance just goes to show how far the madness has gone.

And these are the same people wanting us as a society to condone as an example for generations to follow in marriage.

It's just utter madness and yet those caught up in the madness see it as perfectly sane. So loggerheads is what it is. You want me to tell my kids it's OK to mutilate their body beyond normal function out of one side of my mouth; and out of the other you want me to tell them not to harm their body with drugs.

It can't be done. You're asking too much.

For Nazi Germany, it was "normal" to exterminate jews on a daily basis. Their youth were taught this by their elders' examples. Even today we have groups called "nazi youth"..sprung from that wrong thinking, that "normalized madness". What you're asking for is not only foolhardy, it's dangerous. I can foresee without any trouble at all "youth groups for gender change surgery", cropping up in teenagers who have issues with their gender like Mare does, due to whatever trauma they associated with the gender..and foregoing therapy for quick-fix surgery...losing the ability to have normal sexual pleasure, like Mare has...all because we "normalized" transgenderism. Extrapolate to homosexuality, we already are seeing a rise in numbers of kids in highschool opting for homosexuality...yes, I said "opting"...because it's chic, it's trendy. And we know how youngsters love trends...

If we have every third couple on the block a married gay couple, just imagine how trendy that would be? More youth would opt for gay relationships and there be more of a playing field for homosexuals who are already fixed and unchangeable since puberty.

I realize the statistics favor more loneliness in homosexuals. But that doesn't mean we need to retool reality to incorporate the madness..

There are actually fundamentalists in all religions, they go back to the fundamentals, they eschew the new evils (like where you said that people are so overloaded with sexual stimulus that they have to seek new ways to become stimulated), they see the world as going in the wrong direction, they long for the good ol' days when men were men and women were chattel.

The genitals are not actually "chopped off", it's more a rearrangement. But why is only one form of body mutilation of interest to you?

You should be glad the these deviants are "chopping off" their genitals, they won't reproduce--oh, that's right, reproduction isn't the issue, it's twinkling.

Illegal drugs destroy lives. My legal, AMA medical treatment saved my life just as it has been saving lives for more than 35 years. People used to believe that repairing ANY birth defect was body mutilation--about 3 centuries ago--but some of us have learned.

Gosh! You're really scared. "One couple in 3 is queer" terrifies you. But it's an imaginary fear, none of the other societies who accepted gay and trans people has ever been overwhelmed the way your fear suggests. My little brother is frightened like that too, not of the same things, but he's just as irrational and poorly educated. I cannot assuage your fear, Siho, only education can do that and only you can educate yourself.

 

[Sihouette]

Now I'm ignorant too eh? The abuse never ends..lol..

they long for the good ol' days when men were men and women were chattel.

There are also other "good old days" where women were revered. I'll admit those cultures were few and far between. But those are the ideals..so let's shoot for them.

Remember? Shooting for ideals?

Try to stay in perspective. You are asking someone else to see your situation as normal. It isn't. The majority of people would see multiation of one's genitals before extensive psychotherapy as a hasty and bizarre act.

Bizarre is the word that comes to mind. Others use "crazy", "insane" or "mad".

You are asking mainstream society to accept and welcome with open arms deviant sexualities such as yours as "equal" to hetero ones. For reasons apparently beyond your ability to grasp, and most stated herein on this thread, I think this would be a very very bad idea.

Sex evolved as a means to stimulate evolution by pairing males and females of species to combine DNA instead of just budding or cloning off as with asexual reproduction. There is no species advantage to homosexuality apart from the decline of the species. That may be what homosexuals are shooting for by attempting to normalize and recruit more homosexuals via that normalization.. Homosexuality is de-evolution.

Do you like the group Devo?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Now I'm ignorant too eh? The abuse never ends..lol..

Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of unless you refuse to learn. You have demonstated a wide range of ignorance in your posts on this thread.

There are also other "good old days" where women were revered. I'll admit those cultures were few and far between. But those are the ideals..so let's shoot for them.

I'm familiar with the Goddess religions--of which there were many--and they had some very good attributes, but they were from a previous time. I'm going to shoot for educated equality for all. There is a Buddhist saying about no suffering for any living thing, I think that's a good ideal to shoot for too.

Try to stay in perspective. You are asking someone else to see your situation as normal. It isn't. The majority of people would see multiation of one's genitals before extensive psychotherapy as a hasty and bizarre act.

You are the only one postulating "normal" about a birth defect, I've been very clear in my posts about this. In fact you are the only one pronouncing what "normal" is, when in fact you are making the common mistake of people in assuming that there IS a normal. Science has refuted this definitively, normal is a range of behaviors and attributes.

This is part of the lack of education I mentioned, under the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care used by the AMA, one is required to have extensive psychotherapy before even being allowed to test hormone therapy. I've had more therapy and more drugs given to me by doctors then I care to remember. You insist on seeing my actions as spur of the moment, unconsidered, and ill-advised, but you don't have any idea of what the medical community does to prevent misdiagnosis of my condition. Not only are there physical and therapeutical barriers to be hurdled, but one is required to live for a year in the gender of choice to prove to the doctors that one knows what they are doing, can adjust, and make a living in the new gender.

Bizarre is the word that comes to mind. Others use "crazy", "insane" or "mad".

You accuse me of abusing you, but look at the words you use towards me. Did you do any research on the Standards of Care used successfully by the AMA before you started calling me names? Before you started telling me what I should do? I'm always amazed when someone--who wouldn't change THEIR gender at gunpoint--just assumes that I did on a whim. That shows stunning ignorance and egotism.

You are asking mainstream society to accept and welcome with open arms deviant sexualities such as yours as "equal" to hetero ones. For reasons apparently beyond your ability to grasp, and most stated herein on this thread, I think this would be a very very bad idea.

No one is asking for open arms, you have the right to hate me, what I want is legal equality even after my birth defect is repaired to the best of medicine's ability. That you are so vitriolic while simultaneously being so painfully uninformed shows the depth of your fear--you can't even learn about the issue because you are too afraid.

Sex evolved as a means to stimulate evolution by pairing males and females of species to combine DNA instead of just budding or cloning off as with asexual reproduction. There is no species advantage to homosexuality apart from the decline of the species. That may be what homosexuals are shooting for by attempting to normalize and recruit more homosexuals via that normalization.. Homosexuality is de-evolution.

Do you like the group Devo?

You don't speak for all humankind, for all time, in all instances, you don't speak for nature and sure as Hell don't speak for God. Educate yourself before passing judgment.

Yes, but I don't have a hat.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Silhouette pines for days when men were men.

You know when John Wayne was big legging around in his cotton wig and playing with his boyfriends.

If someone is born with the wrong gender for their body the sensible thing to do is get it changed in order that the person might have a happy life.

The only reason that could possibly bother Silhouette so much is if he is sexually attracted to transexuals and is filled with self loathing because of it.

You know like most extreme homophobes are closet homosexuals.

 

[Sihouette]

Look if debasement and humiliation are all you two have left, then you're argument is pretty weak.

I've asked both of you now to comment, for instance, on item #10 of The Ten Reasons Gays Chase Striaghts link. Mare has avoided commenting on it. Dawkin says s/he doesn't give a ****. That's not a way to confront the topic at hand, unless avoiding the topic is the way you guys want to handle the topic at hand?


And again, I have postulated as to why that is. Apparently you've taken my advice to heart and are now quite keenly interested in preserving your denial systems. I understand.

But for those reading this thread who think that mutilating the human body in unnatural acts in order to find "pleasure" or "peace of mind" is madness, at least I may be reaching some of you. Suffice to say the damage is done in Mare's case.

The money would've been better spent on therapy. Men and women both are born with all sorts of differences in hormone levels and the like. Some people are born with hideous birth defects that make it impossible for normal functioning in eating or walking. In those cases yes, surgery. But to take a perfectly healthy body and mutilate it because of a mindset that isn't fully understood, at least by human behavioralists [people in ag understand sexual fixation and when and where it starts, in the majority of cases], is madness.

You like to play fast and loose Mare with "birth defects" and "physiological deformity", and yet in this quote I sense no little [mental] venom towards your gender. You want to be let off the hook, to assign "phisiological deformity" to why you simply cannot work through your issues like the rest of us have to:

Several things. I would never be able to be truly myself as long as I had a penis, a penis means you're a man. If you get arrested and you have a penis you go into the drunk tank with the men, T-girls like myself have been beaten and raped to death in US jails. I'm not a man, I have breasts, I look like a woman, I feel like a woman, and I have no use for a penis...

.. PLUSSES: fewer birthday and Christmas presents to buy (no brothers), I get to be who I feel like I am every day, no depression, no hopelessness, less body hair (ugh!), JOY, happiness, satisfaction, peace of mind, pretty clothes, perfume, fun shoes, no insane, endless, my-dick-is-bigger-than-yours male competition, social life, no suicidal ideation, much more capacity to interact with the world, no self-hatred, loving myself, being happy with who I see in the mirror every day, the camaraderie of women, less interaction with men, no more struggles to behave like a man so that men wouldn't beat the sh1t out of me for being queer..

MINUSES..still have all the light colored beard hair that the lasers wouldn't destroy, need electrolysis to remove the rest...my voice is too deep, my feet are too big, my arms too long and my hands too big for comfort as a woman, I lost the ability to have sex due to damage during the surgery, after 5 years I still have neuropathy (nerve pain), and no matter what I do I'll never be a man or a woman since I was born somewhere out in the middle between the two.
~ Mare page 20

For one thing, I know a lot of women who would take offense at your posts. Many many many women have facial hair, big feet, long arms and big hands. Are they then also "born somewhere out in the middle between the two" [and requiring surgery therefore-your "logical" conclusion]? I guess all women over 50 need sexual reassignment surgery according to your standards. Women and men come in all shapes and sizes, and we all are born "out in the middle between the two" genders. All of us. My question is, why do you feel the need to change genders to dress up in lacy things like western society has told its females they need to do to be "women"? You are more than seriously confused. I'm thinking at this point that you are a diva, an attention hound. I'm wondering if you not only loathe yourself (being male) but also loath being ignored? What better way to be center stage and apart from all us regular in-betweeners than to have some disfiguring surgery?

With you, I hardly know where to start. But one place I wouldn't start is physiology. I've seen enough in your posts to point me in the direction of psychology.