California Proposition 8

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What would have happened if you had not had the surgery? What were the plusses and minuses of remaining as you were?
Several things. I would never be able to be truly myself as long as I had a penis, a penis means you're a man. If you get arrested and you have a penis you go into the drunk tank with the men, T-girls like myself have been beaten and raped to death in US jails. I'm not a man, I have breasts, I look like a woman, I feel like a woman, and I have no use for a penis. In most places in this country I could be arrested for using the women's restroom if it was discovered that I had a penis, I could be accused of being a pervert and get thrown into jail (see above). Additionally, as long as I had testicles I had to take testosterone blockers and double the amount of estrogen, both drugs are hard on the liver as well as the pocket book. Almost all insurance specifically excludes any treatment associated with transsexuality. Now that I've had the surgery my female clothing fits properly, I'm safer, and I look like my brain thinks I should look when I'm in the shower.

The plusses of staying as I was... I would have saved myself a lot of money.

What are the plusses and minuses now that you've had the surgery?
PLUSSES: fewer birthday and Christmas presents to buy (no brothers), I get to be who I feel like I am every day, no depression, no hopelessness, less body hair (ugh!), JOY, happiness, satisfaction, peace of mind, pretty clothes, perfume, fun shoes, no insane, endless, my-dick-is-bigger-than-yours male competition, social life, no suicidal ideation, much more capacity to interact with the world, no self-hatred, loving myself, being happy with who I see in the mirror every day, the camaraderie of women, less interaction with men, no more struggles to behave like a man so that men wouldn't beat the sh1t out of me for being queer, increased acceptance of other people's differences--I have many gay friends, pen-pals around the world, and I know hundreds of other trans-people of all kinds. And I am DONE with the incessant male sex drive--thank God!

MINUSES: fewer birthday and Christmas presents to buy (no brothers :(), lost 1/3 of my muscle mass and strength (both good and bad there), cost me tens of thousands of dollars to transition, I lost most of my friends, lost my home, lost my business, lost my shop, I'm not as safe now, not treated well by the prevailing religious community, am discriminated against legally as a 2nd class citizen, uncertain medical future since no long term studies have been done on people like me, have been denied medical care, still have all the light colored beard hair that the lasers wouldn't destroy, need electrolysis to remove the rest--money/pain, my wife and I are in legal limbo since our marriage could be taken away from us--my brothers are part of the campaign to annul marriages like ours, my voice is too deep, my feet are too big, my arms too long and my hands too big for comfort as a woman, I lost the ability to have sex due to damage during the surgery, after 5 years I still have neuropathy (nerve pain), and no matter what I do I'll never be a man or a woman since I was born somewhere out in the middle between the two.

If given the chance to do it again, would you still have the surgery or would you try a different option?
What option? Yes, in a heartbeat, transition saved my life and continues to make my life better every day. I know that surgery isn't right for everyone, some people won't, some people can't because they'll never manage to raise the money. I didn't think I'd have the surgery when I first discovered that I was trans, but as time passed it became the next logical step. I mortgaged my home, flew to Cananda, suffered a lot of pain, paid a lot of money, and it was all worth it! If you think that puberty was painful and confusing, then try to do it when your brain tells you one thing and your body tells you the opposite.

I don't know who told you that. I certainly don't recall posting recently that I was a counselor.

Nevertheless, yes, I am ... but I remove that cap before I come here to play.
Someone posted that you were. I just wish that counselors were better educated on this subject. I saw counselors off and on most of my life and not a single one ever mentioned transsexuality to me. People need to know that children know their gender very early and if your 3-4 year old son is telling you he's a girl, you need to pay attention. Get help, get competent counseling from a transgender-wise therapist. There is no absolute test for gender exept to ask the person who they are. Remember: sex is between your legs, gender is between your ears.

If you want more information contact me off-thread because we speak at continuing ed classes for therapists and can connect you with resources.
 
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Mare, I am truly sympathetic to you for your situation. You've gone down a road that I honestly can't relate to, so I won't try. If you are happy now, then that is what matters. Your brothers are @sses...sorry, but while I don't agree with the term marriage being soiled, I very much believe in family. There is nothing my siblings could do that would turn me against them.


It's becoming clearer why you can't understand why the majority of the populous "value" the institution of marriage and don't want it to encompass same sex, animals or multiple partners. I probably wouldn't "get it" either if I were in your heels!
 
More abuse. So I can see we're at loggerheads. You are convinced that gayness is genetic and puberty isn't a time of sexual susceptibility, and therefore gay marraige should be modeled as "OK".

I am convinced that gayness is conditioned and that the onset of puberty poses high risk for adolescent coercion via what society models as "OK".

I wonder which one of us is right?

I'm going with Mare.:D

There is no way that the millions of gay people around the world are just people who suffered "sexual susceptibility" @ puberty or were molested.

Many MANY... I'll say most gay people feel they've been that way from birth and have actually tried to hide it (hence the word closeted... or as I like to call it Larry Craigism).:D

As far as gay marriage being a model that's not the point. The point is it should not be illegal. There are a lot of things that any number of groups might think aren't a good model from their perspective that in a free society of course are legal.

Go Go Bars

Strip Clubs

Living in Sin (unmarried)

Legally recognized gay marriage hurts no one and has caused no problems whatsoever in states where it's been made legal except for the extra rush of income in those states from all the extra wedding planning.

The main thing I see here is the added legal protections, rights & responsibilities that safeguard finances, property, legal decision making capability and visitation in various circumstances.

All understandable things that someone would want and expect with a monogamous loved one don't you think?
 
Thank you, Mare, for your courage to answer my questions.

I applaud you for summoning the great strength and patience to face and endure your challenges along with your resolve to improve your life to the best of your ability.

The knowledge you've gained through it all will likely save and improve the lives of others.

Through you, I have begun an education on the matter ... and I will now be more atuned to key words should I hear them from those who come to me.

I hope that one day our scientists research a discovery of why those two hormone blasts periodically fall short of their attempted effects and hopefully shortly thereafter they find a way to solve this problem.

Please feel free to link me to sites that will be of continued educational value.

You are a bright shining star in a dimly lit universe.

Thank you for lighting my way.
 
no insane, endless, my-dick-is-bigger-than-yours male competition, social life, no suicidal ideation, much more capacity to interact with the world, no self-hatred, loving myself, being happy with who I see in the mirror every day, the camaraderie of women, less interaction with men, no more struggles to behave like a man so that men wouldn't beat the sh1t out of me for being queer, increased acceptance of other people's differences--I have many gay friends, pen-pals around the world, and I know hundreds of other trans-people of all kinds. And I am DONE with the incessant male sex drive--thank God!
Now you got me curious. Apparently you are attracted to women, as a former male. You also, though, enjoy the trappings of being a 'woman'. So, the logical question is, are you now a lesbian? I'm thinking that the rough approximation for your situation is the transsexual that is the kids' teacher on SouthPark? But he is attracted to men still. (I know it's a cartoon, but I'm trying to understand)?

There are two things that come to mind here: one, that I feel the deepest of sympathy for your situation. And two: you must clearly understand why society cannot model your situation as a "marriage" that our youth is supposed to see as "normal".

Once you start mutilating the body God gave you to deal with, based on confusion (many males aren't as aggressive as others, have more estrogen and do just fine in their role as less-aggressive males), you are no longer an example to be followed. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but that's how it is.

If I was you, I would've invested those thousands of dollars in the best psychotherapy that money could buy before I had body parts removed. And the clincher is that not only do you have to attend psychotherapy, you have to work at finding the roots of your issues. If I had to put money on your situation, I'd put it that you had such a horrific male presence(s) in your life modeled early on that you simply could not accept being male yourself. Clearly you harbor no little animosity towards the male gender. And that animosity isn't biological, it's psychological. You may also have more estrogen that some men, which is normal for males, but you have HUGE issues with being male. It is behavioral. It is psychological. And it is abnormal and has roots in trauma in your youth.

We need social norms to aspire to. Of course they will not always be reached, but what you're asking for is condoned chaos. Clearly your orientation has been chaotic for you. Imagine how it would be to extrapolate your chaotic mindset into a 'norm' for our socially-learning youth to aspire to? They have enough to deal with just getting through school and trying to find their place in the world. To throw another wrench of sexual ambiguity as being "normal" in their world might be a bit much. We need solid roles for them to aspire to; in spite of the fact that some of them will fall short. I don't advocate descrimination against those that do, only that we not hold them up as the example to aspire to. Marriage is the embodiment of "the example to aspire to" in our culture. The deviation and the paragon are not compatible.

Moreover, I still think it is very hard to tell an adolescent how it is OK to mutilate the body and even harm it, in your case or in the case of repeated anal sex, in order to feel pleasure?, but not OK to do so if that pleasure is sought through drugs; another God-given-bodily deviant behavior. I have adolescent children at home. I know how they think. The tiniest hypocrisy they call me on time and again. I am at an utter loss how to hide the spots of blood, Mare, in your argument from my little bloodhounds at home..and their friends at school all over the country..
 
And two: you must clearly understand why society cannot model your situation as a "marriage" that our youth is supposed to see as "normal".

Once you start mutilating the body God gave you to deal with, based on confusion (many males aren't as aggressive as others, have more estrogen and do just fine in their role as less-aggressive males), you are no longer an example to be followed. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but that's how it is.

We need social norms to aspire to. Of course they will not always be reached, but what you're asking for is condoned chaos. Clearly your orientation has been chaotic for you. Imagine how it would be to extrapolate your chaotic mindset into a 'norm' for our socially-learning youth to aspire to? They have enough to deal with just getting through school and trying to find their place in the world. To throw another wrench of sexual ambiguity as being "normal" in their world might be a bit much. We need solid roles for them to aspire to; in spite of the fact that some of them will fall short. I don't advocate descrimination against those that do, only that we not hold them up as the example to aspire to. Marriage is the embodiment of "the example to aspire to" in our culture. The deviation and the paragon are not compatible.

Moreover, I still think it is very hard to tell an adolescent how it is OK to mutilate the body and even harm it, in your case or in the case of repeated anal sex, in order to feel pleasure?, but not OK to do so if that pleasure is sought through drugs; another God-given-bodily deviant behavior. I have adolescent children at home. I know how they think. The tiniest hypocrisy they call me on time and again. I am at an utter loss how to hide the spots of blood, Mare, in your argument from my little bloodhounds at home..and their friends at school all over the country..[/QUOTE]


While I do agree sex change surgery should only be done after extensive counseling because it is so permanent...

however on the plain basic "being gay vs. the norm somehow hurts anybody including children" I'd say this...

How bout we stop the homophobia and instead have some jail term for the over 50% of the American heterosexual marriages that break their word to God and drag their kids through divorce.

How bout focusing on domestic violence in heterosexual families that have a much higher percentage than gay households.

How bout pointing out that children are far more injured when they find out after years they had been lied to because a close family member felt forced by society to keep there true sexuality locked up and in the closet.

How bout acknowledging that almost all major studies (some that I've previously posted) show no negative affects on children that are told the truth and live in gay households.

The truth is there is a million of times more damage to children each day in the violence of homes than there ever is just because children find out someone in their family is gay. God might want to look into that.;)
 
You're missing the point. It's not that kids find out someone, some random case is gay...it's that society as a whole promotes deviance as "normal" via OKing deviants getting married.

Adolescents must be shown that gayness isn't normal, but that it also isn't to be descriminated against because of the complex imprinting that renders a person gay, really, beyond their choice...since it was "done" to them [in any one of a number of ways..see previous posts..] by circumstances beyond their control. We would discourage children from mistreating gays the same way we would handicapped or learning-disabled.

You just don't put people down because of something they cannot help.

Gayness isn't genetic it is learned via conditioned association [see examples of mammalian sexual fixation and training around puberty] at an impressionable age. Once fixed it is unlikely to be reverseable. And yet it isn't normal. Once the gosling hatches from its egg and fixates on the first "mother" it experiences, then from then on it won't even recognize its real mom should she happen along..
 
Now you got me curious. Apparently you are attracted to women, as a former male. You also, though, enjoy the trappings of being a 'woman'. So, the logical question is, are you now a lesbian? I'm thinking that the rough approximation for your situation is the transsexual that is the kids' teacher on SouthPark? But he is attracted to men still. (I know it's a cartoon, but I'm trying to understand)?
I never watch broadcast TV so I've never seen the program.

The first thing I think we should do is stop trying to label people. There are 7 more chormosome patterns found in people besides the XX and XY. We also know that there are so many cross-overs between male and female that gender falls on a continuum rather than being "if, then". Even the Olympics has given up trying to assign gender.

You can't type me as a lesbian because I've never had lesbian sex and I don't consider myself a lesbian. You cannot make that kind of decision for me. Is a woman who never has sex still a lesbian? You see here is where the labels breakdown, I'm neither male nor female, I lived the first part of my life pretending to be a man because the culture required it. Finally I was able to get enough information to discover that I was born with a birth defect and then I went to the doctors to see what could be done. I live my life now as a woman because my brain is female and has estrogen receptors in it, I work better and feel better living as a female, I'm a much more functional person now.

There are two things that come to mind here: one, that I feel the deepest of sympathy for your situation. And two: you must clearly understand why society cannot model your situation as a "marriage" that our youth is supposed to see as "normal".
I don't want sympathy, educated understanding would be good though. No child will be convinced to be a transsexual by finding out that they exist, finding out about tall people does not make one tall.

As to your second point, what needs to be done is for people to stop saying that there is a "normal" by which everyone is to be measured. I'm a normal transsexual, there are millions of us in the world, seeing that we are treated the same as everyone else won't make the kids transsexual. Normal is not real; gender, sexual orientation, intelligence, skin color, visual acuity, hairiness, height, weight, agility, and strength are all attributes that fall onto a continuum in the human animal.

Your fear plays you false, you are apparently very afraid that sexual orientation can be put on to a person like paint, an impression made by some outside force and to support this idea you have animal behavior manipulated by tens of thousands of generations of selective inbreeding. I'm sorry, but the science doesn't back you up.

Once you start mutilating the body God gave you to deal with, based on confusion (many males aren't as aggressive as others, have more estrogen and do just fine in their role as less-aggressive males), you are no longer an example to be followed. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but that's how it is.
Now you are bringing religion into this. If you are going to go that route, then you need to support your position with scripture--a slippery slope at best considering the amount of craziness in the Bible.

However, body mutilation is a buzz term, do you call vasectomies, piercing, facelifts, repair of cleft palates or club feet, or any of the cosmetic surgery "body mutilation"? This is important, the culture in which I live kills people like me if we can't fit in, without the surgery I would not have been able to legally use the bathroom in most of the US, I would have been put in with the men had I been arrested, I would have continued to be denied medical care, been subject to firing from my job in 47 of the States, been able to be legally denied an apartment to rent, and I would have lived my life in fear of discovery.

Another point is that I would not have been able to apply for a job. I look like a woman, my driver's license has the "F" designation, when I put "female" on my application I would be lying according to Federal Law because I still had a penis. Even if I had lied, when my employer sent my Social Security info in it would have been kicked back out because the gender marker would be wrong--then I'm liable for firing for lying on the application and liable for prosecution for lying on my W-4 form about my gender. It isn't until I have the surgery and bring notarized copies of the surgical records and a signed, notarized copy of the surgeon's letter saying that the surgery was done that I can apply to the Social Security Administration to get my SS file changed to the "F" designation. That "body mutilation" is what saves our lives from the hatred and fear in our culture.

If I was you, I would've invested those thousands of dollars in the best psychotherapy that money could buy before I had body parts removed. And the clincher is that not only do you have to attend psychotherapy, you have to work at finding the roots of your issues. If I had to put money on your situation, I'd put it that you had such a horrific male presence(s) in your life modeled early on that you simply could not accept being male yourself. Clearly you harbor no little animosity towards the male gender. And that animosity isn't biological, it's psychological. You may also have more estrogen that some men, which is normal for males, but you have HUGE issues with being male. It is behavioral. It is psychological. And it is abnormal and has roots in trauma in your youth.
Once again you are denying the medical truth. The AMA has been successfully treating transsexuals for more than 35 years, there has been ongoing research for more than 100 years and none of the conclusions support your position. Thirty years of depression cleared up in a few days by blocking testoterone and supplementing estrogen? I didn't know about cross-gender hormone responses when I got the medications, the doctor deliberately doesn't tell the patient so that if the depression doesn't go away, then they know that there's another cause. I know you want to believe your psychological theory, but there's no science to support it in this century. I was forced to live as a male, I learned to fight really well since I wasn't very macho and got picked on alot. Men in this culture are often pretty badly damaged by the way they are raised. An intersting book dealing with this is REAL BOYS by William Pollack, PhD. Your "common sense" view of this subject is just as wrong as the the common sense view that the world is flat--it has to be flat or we'd fall off!

We need social norms to aspire to.
This statement I can agree with, how about "non-violence", loving others as ourselves, turning the other cheek, not judging, legal equality for all? How about we put in a special law that says that we do not punish consenting adults for loving each other?

Of course they will not always be reached, but what you're asking for is condoned chaos. Clearly your orientation has been chaotic for you. Imagine how it would be to extrapolate your chaotic mindset into a 'norm' for our socially-learning youth to aspire to? They have enough to deal with just getting through school and trying to find their place in the world. To throw another wrench of sexual ambiguity as being "normal" in their world might be a bit much. We need solid roles for them to aspire to; in spite of the fact that some of them will fall short. I don't advocate descrimination against those that do, only that we not hold them up as the example to aspire to. Marriage is the embodiment of "the example to aspire to" in our culture. The deviation and the paragon are not compatible.
Your basic premise is not supported, so your logic brings you to a fallacious conclusion.

Moreover, I still think it is very hard to tell an adolescent how it is OK to mutilate the body and even harm it, in your case or in the case of repeated anal sex, in order to feel pleasure?, but not OK to do so if that pleasure is sought through drugs; another God-given-bodily deviant behavior. I have adolescent children at home. I know how they think. The tiniest hypocrisy they call me on time and again. I am at an utter loss how to hide the spots of blood, Mare, in your argument from my little bloodhounds at home..and their friends at school all over the country..
The hypocrisy is in lying to them, tell them the truth. Your anal sex thing is true but uncommon, what about "intercourse into utero"? The cervix is sugically altered to allow very long male organs to penetrate up into the uterus. It's true, but uncommon. Much more common is trapunto (the term is colloquial slang) or alternating intercourse strokes between the vagina and the anus. If you are going to judge all gay people by the acts of a few, then don't be surprised when you are judged by the few crazy heterosexuals. If you're looking for weird sex to be upset about you should look to the 96% of the population who are "normal".

Your basic premise is not supported by the careful scientific research being done all over the world.
 
You're missing the point. It's not that kids find out someone, some random case is gay...it's that society as a whole promotes deviance as "normal" via OKing deviants getting married.

Adolescents must be shown that gayness isn't normal, but that it also isn't to be descriminated against because of the complex imprinting that renders a person gay, really, beyond their choice...since it was "done" to them [in any one of a number of ways..see previous posts..] by circumstances beyond their control. We would discourage children from mistreating gays the same way we would handicapped or learning-disabled.

You just don't put people down because of something they cannot help.

Gayness isn't genetic it is learned via conditioned association [see examples of mammalian sexual fixation and training around puberty] at an impressionable age. Once fixed it is unlikely to be reverseable. And yet it isn't normal. Once the gosling hatches from its egg and fixates on the first "mother" it experiences, then from then on it won't even recognize its real mom should she happen along..

But we let handicapped and learning-disabled people marry. We let murderer, child molestors, and any other consenting adult marry--but not gays. If the gay people are not at fault for their condition, then why should not two of these poor unfortunate souls be able to marry and share as much of the "normal" world as is possible? You are punishing the victims with no proof that they have done anything wrong. They are being denied due-process, their rights are taken away on the assumption of guild, but they never get their day in court. Just as you have said that I'm a lesbian--though I have said that I am not, you have never met me, nor do you have any evidence that I have ever done anything wrong to anyone, you still are willing to punish me based your judgment of all of us.

"Imprinting" the way you are using it is incorrect. I won't try to convince you since I just found out from you that I'm a lesbian and therefore have no credibility--just like Dr. Chappell.
 
Mare, I am truly sympathetic to you for your situation. You've gone down a road that I honestly can't relate to, so I won't try. If you are happy now, then that is what matters. Your brothers are @sses...sorry, but while I don't agree with the term marriage being soiled, I very much believe in family. There is nothing my siblings could do that would turn me against them.


It's becoming clearer why you can't understand why the majority of the populous "value" the institution of marriage and don't want it to encompass same sex, animals or multiple partners. I probably wouldn't "get it" either if I were in your heels!

Why wouldn't I be able to understand the value of marriage, I'm married and I wish to remain that way, we have two sons, a home, a cat, why should we be singled out to have our marriage taken away? What have we done wrong to be so punished?
 
No child will be convinced to be a transsexual by finding out that they exist, finding out about tall people does not make one tall.
You're doing the apples and oranges thing again.

Finding out that people are transsexual isn't what I'm concerned about at all.

Pay attention:

I'm concerned about legitimizing transsexuality as normal within the description of marriage ie: a societally condoned sexual pairing.

Once impressionable youth see their elders and the fabric of society itself condoning something, anything, social drinking, smoking, homosexuality, fire-breathing, swimming with sharks...whatever.. the activity then becomes "normal" and hence the very fabric of our society is changed forever. This is how humans "do" culture. Prop 8 was shot down because a majority of people sensed this on a gut level and they decided that they didn't want deviance to be condoned as normal.

Frustrating as that might be, that is how democracy works. They didn't make homosexuality and other legal sexual deviances illegal. They just said they don't qualify to "represent" in marriage.

That's it in a nutshell.
 
You're doing the apples and oranges thing again.

Finding out that people are transsexual isn't what I'm concerned about at all.

Pay attention:

I'm concerned about legitimizing transsexuality as normal within the description of marriage ie: a societally condoned sexual pairing.

Once impressionable youth see their elders and the fabric of society itself condoning something, anything, social drinking, smoking, homosexuality, fire-breathing, swimming with sharks...whatever.. the activity then becomes "normal" and hence the very fabric of our society is changed forever. This is how humans "do" culture. Prop 8 was shot down because a majority of people sensed this on a gut level and they decided that they didn't want deviance to be condoned as normal.

Frustrating as that might be, that is how democracy works. They didn't make homosexuality and other legal sexual deviances illegal. They just said they don't qualify to "represent" in marriage.

That's it in a nutshell.
Pay attention, you want to believe that there is a problem and you can solve it by denying one segment of the population equal rights. You have demonized gay people, you have no support for your belief in the "imprinting" of sexual orientation, you have no background in biology, the veterinarians you have used as sources would tell you that their work does not apply to humans nor even wild animals.

You use the term "deviance" like a club. I understand that you desperately want to blame somebody and you think you have God's own Truth in the persecution of gay people. People just like you screaming about deviancy and crimes against nature tried to prevent interracial marriages. Do you realize that left-handed people were persecuted as being deviant, touched by the Devil, emotionally unstable, and evil? Do you know that some people born with birth defects are STILL treated that way? And you are still denying the truth based on what you see in feedlots and farrowing cages.

Forty-five million legal abortions all done by heterosexuals, 3 out of every 5 five women will be assaulted by a man in their lifetime and all of them will have been by heterosexuals. Yet heterosexuality is promoted by the culture. Your selective indignation smacks of the worst kind of hetero-sexist hypocrisy.
 
Thank you, Mare, for your courage to answer my questions.

I applaud you for summoning the great strength and patience to face and endure your challenges along with your resolve to improve your life to the best of your ability.

The knowledge you've gained through it all will likely save and improve the lives of others.

Through you, I have begun an education on the matter ... and I will now be more atuned to key words should I hear them from those who come to me.

I hope that one day our scientists research a discovery of why those two hormone blasts periodically fall short of their attempted effects and hopefully shortly thereafter they find a way to solve this problem.

Please feel free to link me to sites that will be of continued educational value.

You are a bright shining star in a dimly lit universe.

Thank you for lighting my way.
Thanks for the nice post. My thought was to give you a way to contact Reid Vanderburgh who is a transtherapist, one of the best I know. Very well read, has written two books, and is himself a female to male transsexual. It is in his class for therapists that we come to talk every year. That work for you?
 
You're missing the point. It's not that kids find out someone, some random case is gay...it's that society as a whole promotes deviance as "normal" via OKing deviants getting married.

Adolescents must be shown that gayness isn't normal, but that it also isn't to be descriminated against because of the complex imprinting that renders a person gay, really, beyond their choice...since it was "done" to them [in any one of a number of ways..see previous posts..] by circumstances beyond their control. We would discourage children from mistreating gays the same way we would handicapped or learning-disabled.

You just don't put people down because of something they cannot help.

Gayness isn't genetic it is learned via conditioned association [see examples of mammalian sexual fixation and training around puberty] at an impressionable age. Once fixed it is unlikely to be reverseable. And yet it isn't normal. Once the gosling hatches from its egg and fixates on the first "mother" it experiences, then from then on it won't even recognize its real mom should she happen along..

More incorrect animal analogies>>>> :confused:

The things you site as the human condition are proven as not the only & total reasons nor the timing for someone realizing they are gay.

Hence to lift an modify a Johnny Cockran line... If it doesn't fit... it's not legit.:D

Have you never met a severely feminine young boy way before puberty, same with radically tomboy little girl?

Any one of these that end up coming out as gay were obviously predisposed to go that way. The human brain is a complex thing my friend.

And even if you hypothesis were true (which it sooo obviously is not) the "normalness" you would be striving for is just as lacking in the heterosexual community.

Bondage

S&M

Foot Fetish


On & on... because all were talking about is a persons sexual preference not the ability for someone to be a good respectable person. Hence as studies have shown hurt society and children in no way.

I'll follow up with a research text next post...
 
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About Marriage Equality
Newsweek story, same-sex marriage Rights, religion, dignity, respect
www.UUA.org

The religious right maintains that civil unions and gay marriage will break down the traditional family. They hold firm that God meant for marriage to be between one man and one woman for the purpose of procreation. I have heard television evangelists say that our laws were derived from the 10 commandments and that we are a Christian nation. Radical right wing websites plant the seeds of fear by equating civil unions and gay marriage to legalizing pedophilia!

Fear is a very powerful emotion. Fear is what enabled Hitler to execute millions of Jewish people. Fear is what convinced the American people that invading Iraq was the right thing to do. It is easier to fear and avoid the unknown than it is to embrace change. Only education and experience can ease the emotions caused by man made fear.

If we looked beyond the radical opinions on both sides and looked at what we have learned from experience, it is clear that gay marriage and/or civil unions do not break down the fabric of our society.

Looking toward experience for some answers, Massachusetts legalized gay marriage in 2004. Most of the other New England states have some type of civil union laws. Providing legal recognition to gay relationships has not produced any negative change in the lives of any New Englander, it has not had an affect on heterosexual marriage nor has it produced an increase in pedophilia (as some would want you to believe).

To find the correct answers to the questions surrounding the legalization of gay unions, one only needs take a rational look at the issues:

1. If my gay neighbors get married, how will this affect me?

It won't.

2. Is the institution of marriage a Christian owned institution or is this a legal contract?

The state requires a marriage license, therefore, marriage is a legal contract. In addition, the state provides alternatives to religious marriage ceremonies.

3. Do we, as Christians, have the right to tell others, including others that practice a religion that allows gay marriage, they must live by our Christian laws?

American is freedom of religion. Christians have no right to force their religious beliefs on others.

4. Marriage is for procreation, therefore, since gay people cannot procreate, these relationships should not be sanctified.

If this were true we would require every couple to have a fertility test before they are married and disallow any infertile person to marry.

5. Sanctifying gay relationships will break down traditional families and marriages.

How can this possibly happen? Gay people are only asking for the same rights and responsibilities granted to heterosexual couples. Recognizing gay relationships will not cause more people to "be gay" nor will it break down any heterosexual marriage. The only possible way that gay relationship recognition would have an affect on the "traditional family" would be if you were looking at "traditional" in a biblical way. In that way, there would be no "man" of the family or biblical "head" of the household.

Sanctifying gay relationships will not hurt this country. It may even make this country stronger. It will open more people up to health insurance eligibility. It will take some off welfare rolls (once married, welfare will not cover the families if at least one person works). It will reduce the states liabilities to provide low income people with health insurance, child care reimbursement, etc because fewer families will meet the income qualifications for these services. But most importantly, it will provide your neighbors with the ability to visit their partners in the hospitals, sign consent for medical treatment for their partners and prevent the children in these families from having to feel ashamed of the parents that they love.

With New Hampshire soon becoming the fourth state in the U.S. to offer legal recognition to gay and lesbian relationships, the "traditional marriage" debate is once again heating up.

The religious right maintains that civil unions and gay marriage will break down the traditional family. They hold firm that God meant for marriage to be between one man and one woman for the purpose of procreation. I have heard television evangelists say that our laws were derived from the 10 commandments and that we are a Christian nation. Radical right wing websites plant the seeds of fear by equating civil unions and gay marriage to legalizing pedophilia!

Fear is a very powerful emotion. Fear is what enabled Hitler to execute millions of Jewish people. Fear is what convinced the American people that invading Iraq was the right thing to do. It is easier to fear and avoid the unknown than it is to embrace change. Only education and experience can ease the emotions caused by man made fear.

If we looked beyond the radical opinions on both sides and looked at what we have learned from experience, it is clear that gay marriage and/or civil unions do not break down the fabric of our society.

Looking toward experience for some answers, Massachusetts legalized gay marriage in 2004. Most of the other New England states have some type of civil union laws. Providing legal recognition to gay relationships has not produced any negative change in the lives of any New Englander, it has not had an affect on heterosexual marriage nor has it produced an increase in pedophilia (as some would want you to believe).

To find the correct answers to the questions surrounding the legalization of gay unions, one only needs take a rational look at the issues:

1. If my gay neighbors get married, how will this affect me?

It won't

2. Is the institution of marriage a Christian owned institution or is this a legal contract?

The state requires a marriage license, therefore, marriage is a legal contract. In addition, the state provides alternatives to religious marriage ceremonies.

3. Do we, as Christians, have the right to tell others, including others that practice a religion that allows gay marriage, they must live by our Christian laws?

American is freedom of religion. Christians have no right to force their religious beliefs on others.

4. Marriage is for procreation, therefore, since gay people cannot procreate, these relationships should not be sanctified.

If this were true we would require every couple to have a fertility test before they are married and disallow any infertile person to marry.


5. Sanctifying gay relationships will break down traditional families and marriages.

How can this possibly happen? Gay people are only asking for the same rights and responsibilities granted to heterosexual couples. Recognizing gay relationships will not cause more people to "be gay" nor will it break down any heterosexual marriage. The only possible way that gay relationship recognition would have an affect on the "traditional family" would be if you were looking at "traditional" in a biblical way. In that way, there would be no "man" of the family or biblical "head" of the household.

Sanctifying gay relationships will not hurt this country. It may even make this country stronger. It will open more people up to health insurance eligibility. It will take some off welfare rolls (once married, welfare will not cover the families if at least one person works). It will reduce the states liabilities to provide low income people with health insurance, child care reimbursement, etc because fewer families will meet the income qualifications for these services. But most importantly, it will provide your neighbors with the ability to visit their partners in the hospitals, sign consent for medical treatment for their partners and prevent the children in these families from having to feel ashamed of the parents that they love.
 
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