California Proposition 8

[Sihouette]

Top Gun says,

1. If my gay neighbors get married, how will this affect me?

It won't

It's not you I'm worried about it affecting, it is impressionable pubescents and the human social learning thing. I've stated that now, like 100 times. By your age your sexuality has been fixed in stone. In youth however it is "Monkey see, monkey do". It's not just some funny saying.

2. Is the institution of marriage a Christian owned institution or is this a legal contract?

The state requires a marriage license, therefore, marriage is a legal contract. In addition, the state provides alternatives to religious marriage ceremonies.

Yes, it is a legal contract, that we have defined, christian and non-christians alike as an exclusive sexual union between one adult man and one adult woman for the implied purposes of procreating and rearing children. Children only result from pairings between men and women, clones notwithstanding (a whole other nightmare). Why only one male and one female? Because we've decided that multiples will fog custody issues. Children eat, need clothes, shelter, schooling, medical care etc. Marriage is all about [implied] childrearing by those naturally capable of begetting them [or potentially so]. We have decided to define it this way as a voting public because the majority of us think this paragon is one to shoot for, to model for our youth, instead of deviant sexual relatioships that cannot result in children. That's just what the majority of us, christian or not, think should be done. And rightfully so. There will always be deviants. The "goal" to shoot for is normal sexual relations to model for our youth as condoned by their mentors: ie "society".

3. Do we, as Christians, have the right to tell others, including others that practice a religion that allows gay marriage, they must live by our Christian laws?

American is freedom of religion. Christians have no right to force their religious beliefs on others.

Agreed. This has nothing to do with religion and a hellofa lot to do with human learning and adolescent imprinting, and what we set as "norms" for our youth to follow. We must not set hypocritical norms. We cannot out of one side of our mouths tell our youth, "harming the body to seek pleasure outside the body's normal functions by using drugs ist verboten." and then turn right around and say [implied via condoning gay marriage] "oh, but it's OK to go outside the body's normal functions to seek pleasure, even if it permanently ruptures the anal tissues or results in a mental condition where people are in such denial of their deviance that they schedule medical procedures to mutilate their own bodies...sometimes beyond repair", as Mare has indicated itself [sorry, at this point I don't know whether to call you male or female. Your DNA is male but you've carved your body to look female. I'm guessing "she"?] This confusion we don't need to parade to our youth as normal.

4. Marriage is for procreation, therefore, since gay people cannot procreate, these relationships should not be sanctified.

If this were true we would require every couple to have a fertility test before they are married and disallow any infertile person to marry.

Marriage is for implied procreation potential. Again, the main reason for pairing males and females as condoned by society is to model for impressionable "aping" adolescents on the dawn of the birth of their sexual preference, around pre-adolescence.

5. Sanctifying gay relationships will break down traditional families and marriages.
[your reply is that it won't.]

Yes, it will break down traditional families. Tradition is about continuing something that has been around for a long time. The paragon of marriage has always traditionally been a union between a man and woman. Since the very dawn of time, way before christianity popped up its head. So yes, utterly ashing the very foundation of the purpose of marriage, of two breeding adults to beget and raise children together, does break down traditional family potential. We're aiming at potentials here and remembering that our youth are looking on..

 

[top gun]

Sihouette;77950]
It's not you I'm worried about it affecting, it is impressionable pubescents and the human social learning thing. I've stated that now, like 100 times. By your age your sexuality has been fixed in stone. In youth however it is "Monkey see, monkey do". It's not just some funny saying.

Yes and it applies to MONKEYS!

Wellbeing of Children Studies

One of the most widely cited arguments against allowing same sex couples marriages rights is that it could harm children raised in the context of these relationships. Upon examination of the social science research in this area it is clear that the evidence does not support this argument. According to a report by the American Academy of Pediatrics, "A growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with 1 or 2 gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual. Children's optimal development seems to be influenced more by the nature of the relationships and interactions within the family unit than by the particular structural form it takes." Since that report was published in 2002, a number of additional studies have been published showing that children with same sex parents do at least as well on the outcomes studied as children as opposite sex parents. This is why the other major psychological and health organizations have made resolutions supporting same sex marriage and parenting (The American Psychological Association for example).

Last year I did a television news interview about the issue of same sex couples raising children. During the segment they showed a clip of me describing the social science evidence, and then they showed a clip of a religious figure saying that research shows kids are better off with a "mom and a dad." I was disappointed that they showed this clip because I had explained to the reporters that this issue often gets confused by making inappropriate comparisons. In the case of the religious figure, he was referring to research showing that children raised with a mom and a dad look better on some outcomes than children raised by a single parent. Most of these differences are explained by the socioeconomic strain of being a single parent. But comparing children raised by a mother and a father to children raised by a single parent tells us nothing about how well children will do when they are raised by two same sex parents. The appropriate research approach would be to compare children raised by same or opposite sex parents. And these kinds of comparisons make it clear that children raised by same sex parents do just fine. Making other comparisons is, at best misguided, and at worst purposefully disingenuous.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: WE HAVE LIFT OFF!

One of the posters on this thread has convinced me. With the toadying help of but one sycophant and a veritable avalanche of "majored in biology", animal professional, feedlot research, and on the spot farrowing cage observations supplemented by a single, overwhelming veterinarian document have crushed me and a century of science into obsequious silence.

I went to the mountain top last night and said, "Jesus, Heal Me!" The anus of Heaven opened and I received the "straight" poop (as it were) directly from the horse's... er, mouth.

We have a final solution. All gay and transpeople are caused by the Twinkie effect (hereafter known as "twinkling) and this twinkling is hidden by memory blackouts. If there was no twinkling going on there would be no gay or transgendered people. All we have to do is round up all of them and kill them, then not only will America be holy and whole, but as Rev. Fred Phelps has told us while protesting at soldiers funerals, "Our soldiers are dying as punishment on the US for allowing gay people to exist here." Just think, with no gays or trannies our soldiers would be invincible.

My suggestion is that as we round up the queers, we shave their heads and brand them on both sides of their faces so that no one will be taken in unknowingly by their "twinkling" if one of them should manage to escape. All of them should be transported in cattle trucks to a concentration camp, their gold fillings should be extracted (no use wasting gold on people in Hell), and then they should be killed and dumped into a mass grave. Blackwater Corp. could be in charge of running the camp since they have the manpower and experience with crowd control.

I realize that God is big on crucifixtion (He demanded that His own Son be crucified even though He knew the poor bugger was innocent) and all of the gays and trannies should be crucified, but we don't have the budget for that nor the time. We need to kill them quick and get their property into the hands of "normal" people so that we can get the economy back on solid ground. Just think, all the worldly wealth of several million people being distributed by like manna from Heaven!

This could work, think how happy God would be with all those queers dead like the Bible demands. I will of course be dead too, but that's a small price to pay to ransom my country from the dreaded "twinkling".

 

[top gun]

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: WE HAVE LIFT OFF!

One of the posters on this thread has convinced me. With the toadying help of but one sycophant and a veritable avalanche of "majored in biology", animal professional, feedlot research, and on the spot farrowing cage observations supplemented by a single, overwhelming veterinarian document have crushed me and a century of science into obsequious silence.

I went to the mountain top last night and said, "Jesus, Heal Me!" The anus of Heaven opened and I received the "straight" poop (as it were) directly from the horse's... er, mouth.

We have a final solution. All gay and transpeople are caused by the Twinkie effect (hereafter known as "twinkling) and this twinkling is hidden by memory blackouts. If there was no twinkling going on there would be no gay or transgendered people. All we have to do is round up all of them and kill them, then not only will America be holy and whole, but as Rev. Fred Phelps has told us while protesting at soldiers funerals, "Our soldiers are dying as punishment on the US for allowing gay people to exist here." Just think, with no gays or trannies our soldiers would be invincible.

My suggestion is that as we round up the queers, we shave their heads and brand them on both sides of their faces so that no one will be taken in unknowingly by their "twinkling" if one of them should manage to escape. All of them should be transported in cattle trucks to a concentration camp, their gold fillings should be extracted (no use wasting gold on people in Hell), and then they should be killed and dumped into a mass grave. Blackwater Corp. could be in charge of running the camp since they have the manpower and experience with crowd control.

I realize that God is big on crucifixtion (He demanded that His own Son be crucified even though He knew the poor bugger was innocent) and all of the gays and trannies should be crucified, but we don't have the budget for that nor the time. We need to kill them quick and get their property into the hands of "normal" people so that we can get the economy back on solid ground. Just think, all the worldly wealth of several million people being distributed by like manna from Heaven!

This could work, think how happy God would be with all those queers dead like the Bible demands. I will of course be dead too, but that's a small price to pay to ransom my country from the dreaded "twinkling".

Was it really LIFT OFF??????? Or are the monkey theories really more like HUSTON... WE HAVE A PROBLEM!

 

[Sihouette]

Yes and it applies to MONKEYS

If you're going to try to argue a case based on the fact that human sexuality does not closely follow our primate cousins in a court of law (where this will eventually be tried) good luck. You're going to need it.

And you're going to need to be able to demonstrate that an entire industry that banks on sexualtiy being able to be molded at the onset of puberty, AI (artificial insemination), is wrong about its gravy-train. The facts are stacked against you.

Do I expect you to "convert" to my way of thinking...not soon if ever. Because you have a huge investment in denial with respect to your bodily mutilation. If one day you woke up and found that instead of actually being a woman trapped in a man's body, you were instead acting out subconscious hostilities towards the male gender in general by denouncing your own maleness by amputation body parts...well...

Let's just say a few dams would break and the mess would be neither pretty, nor easy to put back together again. For you, I think the best bet would be to continue to fight for your right to stay stuck in denial. But for the rest of humanity, particularly our adolescents, it would be a better service that the truth of the matter be told and for our laws to follow suit with respect to what type of marital relationships [and by extrapolation, sexuality] is to be condoned as normal.

We should also teach sympathy and understanding for those people who are permanently confused. If you read the bits on stallions becoming rutted in their sexual routines, if you were objective, you could see that ruts are ruts and are very difficult to undo. The homosexual or whatever-sexual-besides-hetero condition is a result of stimulus and conditioning at a crucial age. If you're going to argue that humans are immune to this type of proven imprinting....also...good luck...

Hopefully, unbiased experts without a vested interest in preserving their own denial systems will be called in to testify about social-learning when this goes to court. And in the same vein, hopefully also will those experts and juries be compassionate towards deviant sexualities in other areas of descrimination besides holding them up as normal.

The don't ask, don't tell idea is a good one. Sexuality really does belong in the bedroom and nowhere else. We don't need to foist our sexuality on others once our preferences are set, and yet we must still hold the implied natural union of a man and woman to beget children as the paragon for subsequent generations to aspire to.

Deviations will always happen. My point is, why promote them? As with the "Ten Reasons Why Gays Chase Straights" article, homosexuals might argue that they need more partners...as to Reason #10. Heterosexuals might then counter that homosexuals then know or strongly suspect that sexuality is learned and therefore could be taught. And who are the most susceptible to this teaching? Twinkies...aka impressionable adolescents..

And hence the problem with gays getting married. Follow the breadcrumbs and this is always the conclusion....you have to follow the breadcrumbs though and not get distracted by fear of denial-systems being exposed.. Unless you are Mare, or like him/her/it and would be better off staying in your happy land of blissful blindness.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Was it really LIFT OFF??????? Or are the monkey theories really more like HUSTON... WE HAVE A PROBLEM!

Didn't you watch the movies about Hannibal Lector? "Lift off" is removing the top of the head to remove some or all of the brain.

If twinkling were the cause of homo and trans sexuality then it stands to reason that in societies where those things were not looked down upon would have had astronomical rates of homo and trans sexuals. Hmmm... didn't happen even once in human history. Well the theory can't be wrong when you're dealing with animal professionals so I guess history must be wrong.

It's interesting to me to note that none of the other instances of body mutilation receive any attention at all by the animal professional. Nor does the issue a lack of due process before sentencing people to 2nd class citizenship. Once we get all the homos and trannies face-branded, can the n*ggers and Jews be far behind?

Say, Top, have you noticed the advertising industry changing anyone's sexual orientation? The animal professional seems to be saying that they are in her second sentence. Did I miss that?

Ruts? Ruts, my dear? Fifty years of male enculturation and behavior coupled with heterosexual serial-monogamy and then I kick over the traces and become a tranny?

I think too, that the use of the word "deviant" for any sexual activity besided peno-vaginal intercourse is also indicative of emotional problems around the whole issue of sex. I'm happy to note that people like the "animal professional" and my brothers are a vanishing breed, like the dinosaurs they can neither learn nor change with the times and so will die of old age and leave the planet to the faster, smarter mammals. The real danger lies in the damage they do in their death throes, seeing the light dim can be terrifying for all of us.

 

[top gun]

Sihouette;78080]If you're going to try to argue a case based on the fact that human sexuality does not closely follow our primate cousins in a court of law (where this will eventually be tried) good luck. You're going to need it.

And you're going to need to be able to demonstrate that an entire industry that banks on sexualtiy being able to be molded at the onset of puberty, AI (artificial insemination), is wrong about its gravy-train. The facts are stacked against you.

I don't have to do any of that at all. You're arguing that ALL human sexuality is based on primates. This is not the case and definitely not the case in human homosexuality.

Do I expect you to "convert" to my way of thinking...not soon if ever. Because you have a huge investment in denial with respect to your bodily mutilation. If one day you woke up and found that instead of actually being a woman trapped in a man's body, you were instead acting out subconscious hostilities towards the male gender in general by denouncing your own maleness by amputation body parts...well...

Again, WRONG. I'm not gay. I'm a straight, married father of two. I have ZERO investment in your silly season argument vs. Mare. I'm simply telling you human homosexuality falls into categories you fail to accept hence making your argument null and void.

Human homosexuality can be a mental predisposition just like somebody is left handed. Or it can be a preferred way of life & sexual release. And it could in some small amount of instances be the result from some type of trauma... but certainly this is the most MINORITY reason by far.

And to answer your last line this is exactly what happens in many cases with those choosing gender reassignment surgery.

We should also teach sympathy and understanding for those people who are permanently confused.

You have my deepest sympathy.

Hopefully, unbiased experts without a vested interest in preserving their own denial systems will be called in to testify about social-learning when this goes to court. And in the same vein, hopefully also will those experts and juries be compassionate towards deviant sexualities in other areas of descrimination besides holding them up as normal...

Already been clinically and socially studied as I've posted... could post more for days.

With homophobic groups this is not about any study, it's about their religious take in almost every case...

and in the others it's often either just plain old fashion prejudice, similar to racial prejudice, or quite often a case of one's own insecurity in their own sexuallity... hopefully you'll eventually work it out.

 

[Sihouette]

I am neither a homophobe, nor am I religious. This debate belongs in the field of human and mammalian psychology and phisiology.

Period.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I am neither a homophobe, nor am I religious. This debate belongs in the field of human and mammalian psychology and phisiology.

Period.

So, did you major in psychology and physiology as well as biology?

I am sorry that you have had bad experiences with sex, I hope that you will work through them and be happier later. It's sad that your fear makes you prescribe and proscribe the lives of others.

Unlike you, I will not take from others the rights I accept for myself.

 

[Sihouette]

I've had great experiences with sex. My sister has the degree in psych. I hear quite a lot about it. And I read a lot. I never stop learning.

Unfortunately for your situation, the voting public and courts will decide what is "right" to model for our youth. I'm thinking your pleas won't be heard quite the way you thought they would.

If sanity prevails..

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I've had great experiences with sex. My sister has the degree in psych. I hear quite a lot about it. And I read a lot. I never stop learning.

Unfortunately for your situation, the voting public and courts will decide what is "right" to model for our youth. I'm thinking your pleas won't be heard quite the way you thought they would.

If sanity prevails..

Yeah, my brother has a Master's in psych and he's a total fundie nut-bar. You've had great experiences with sex and you say it's like mud in clear spring water? Okay, but if your sex life is anything like what you see in the average feedlot or farrowing cage, I feel sorry for you.

The Christian men once said that women would never have equal rights, never vote, and never own property too. The racists said that blacks would never have equal rights and there would be no intergration. The Christian church probibited inter-faith marriages for a long time, they did the same with interracial marriages. Where are any of those prohibitions today? Gone like the dinosaurs, gay persecution is next. Then it will be trannies. Stay tuned.

 

[Sihouette]

You know...

For a person who is supposedly against descrimination and abuse, your posts are sure loaded with it. "Fundie". Is that a derogatory lumping term for what you've pigeonholed as "Fundamentalist"? Sex in the feedlot eh?

For someone crying out against intolerance, you sure having it coming out of your pores...

In any event, let me clarify what I was talking about with the sex/love thing. There is far, far, far too much emphasis on sex in relationships these days. It is a given that hormones will take over if love is present between a man and a woman. We really don't need to spend literally every waking moment thinking about parading for sexual overtures. In fact, IMHO, it is now so done to death that people are actively seeking deviances to stay interested in it.

I keep sex in my life spartan, so that the times I do enjoy it, it is with someone I feel very deeply for and the experience is memorable...instead of just another faceless orgasm with some object I dated that night. You can call this a hangup if you like. Or call names, make fun or whatever "tolerant and politically correct" stance you take on it..lol.. If it is a hangup, then I stand guilty as charged.

I think trying to introduce deviant sex into the traditional, yes, traditional, description of marriage as a union between and adult man and an adult woman is just another extension of sexual obession run amok. Like so many other deviant compulsive behaviors, deviant-sexuality has made a culture of itself, like the drug culture, or the nazi culture, or the neocon culture. They want "rights" they want to lobby for their deviances, they want to parade their slant as "normal" for the whole world to see. Just look at NAMBLA. This is an organization actually pushing for rights for adult men to have sex with adolescent (and younger?) boys. If we tell you yes for your slant to marry, how do we say no to NAMBLA? Really, what is the difference if the man and the boy are "in love"?

I guess I'm just tired of up being down, purple being orange and queer being normal. We've got to drawn the line somewhere, for the sake of our kids. They don't like to be told two conflicting things. It screws with their heads and the results can be disasterous for a culture..

"We're queer and we're here.". That pretty much sums it up. Ganging up in numbers doesn't necessarily mean that the cause is a correct one, or born of sane beginnings..

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Why don't you just do what you want in the bedroom and extend the same consideration to others.

There would be no need for radical groups on sexuality if people just stopped worrying about which hole you put your dick in.

It doesn't matter.

What matters is if you are caring, generous, reasonable, warm, happy, healthy, educated, fed etc.

Who you **** is of no concern to anyone except you and the person you are ****ing.

Marriage is ridiculous for everyone.

Why should gay people be denied the chance to enter into these farcical contracts?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

You know...

For a person who is supposedly against descrimination and abuse, your posts are sure loaded with it. "Fundie". Is that a derogatory lumping term for what you've pigeonholed as "Fundamentalist"? Sex in the feedlot eh?

Fundamentalist is their term for their Biblical stance in which the Bible is the Word of God, inerrant, unchanging, perfect, and complete. There being not a single word about trans people in the Bible they have condemned me by saying it's a sin because it's NOT in the Bible. Thus one would have to assume that computers, airplanes, electric lights, and farrowing cages are also sinful.

For someone crying out against intolerance, you sure having it coming out of your pores...

Funny, isn't it, when members of a small minority begin to fight back against the lies and persecution heaped upon them, that THEY are accused of intolerance. You have made a bunch of denigrating statements about who and what I am, called me a deviant, advocated taking away legal rights from me that you gladly accept for yourself, and you've done these things without a single shred of proof for the things you've said. NOW, you call ME intolerant.

In any event, let me clarify what I was talking about with the sex/love thing. There is far, far, far too much emphasis on sex in relationships these days. It is a given that hormones will take over if love is present. We really don't need to spend literally every waking moment thinking about parading for sexual overtures. In fact, IMHO, it is now so done to death that people are actively seeking deviances to stay interested in it.

I agree with you, but I also know that people have searched for ways to stay interested in sex for the length of recorded sexual history. None of this is new.

I keep sex in my life spartan, so that the times I do enjoy it, it is with someone I feel very deeply for and the experience is memorable...instead of just another faceless orgasm with some object I dated that night. You can call this a hangup if you like. Or call names, make fun or whatever "tolerant and politically correct" stance you take on it..lol.. If it is a hangup, then I stand guilty as charged.

You are the one who has equated sex with the activity in feedlots and farrowing cages, with stallions, and animals domestic. I don't draw those parallels because I know they don't work. You have made your own statements about your view of sex, I never asked.

I think trying to introduce deviant sex into the traditional, yes, traditional, description of marriage as a union between and adult man and an adult woman is just another extension of sexual obession run amok. Like so many other deviant compulsive behaviors, deviant-sexuality has made a culture of itself, like the drug culture, or the nazi culture, or the neocon culture. They want "rights" they want to lobby for their deviances, they want to parade their slant as "normal" for the whole world to see.

I guess I'm just tired of up being down, purple being orange and queer being normal. We've got to drawn the line somewhere, for the sake of our kids. They don't like to be told two conflicting things. It screws with their heads and the results can be disasterous for a culture..

"We're queer and we're here.". That pretty much sums it up. Ganging up in numbers doesn't necessarily mean that the cause is a correct one, or born of sane beginnings..

Nor does tradition mean that something is correct, women used to be chattel. Your judgment on us is inaccurate due to ignorance on your part, you said in your previous post that you continue to learn--good, your lack of knowledge in this area is fairly complete.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Intolerance of intolerance is not itself intolerance.

As you can see from the very reasonable posts of Mare and the interfering prurience of Silhouette's.