Another theory that must be rejected by conservatives

I've pointed this out at least three times now, you're hypothesis is wrong and it has yet to be supported by anyone...

If you wanted to be accurate you could say:

"Conservatives are often skeptical of at least three scientific theories."

That hypothesis could be supported by the statements made by Pale and Gipper.

Not one single Conservative has declared that a Conservative "must reject at least three scientific theories in order to be considered conservative".

Claiming that anyone has supported your hypothesis is false. Repeatedly claiming that your hypothesis has been supported is pathological.

How so? It is the self described conservatives on this board who are attempting to refute established scientific theories on an internet forum.

So far, however, my poll is indicating that my hypothesis may be wrong. Perhaps there is no need to reject science in order to be a conservative.

Why then, do they do so? That question deserves some more scrutiny, don't you think? What is the connection?
 
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palerider;14t4706 said:
Are you really that intellectually challenged? By the way, which 3 do you claim that I reject? And do you suppose that I couldn't find 3 theories that you reject as well?

Oh, I'm sure you could find three theories that I would reject, they just wouldn't be scientific theories.

I "claim" that you reject the theory of evolution, and global warming theory. As for the third, relativity, I'm not sure, but your posts make your rejection of the other two pretty clear.

And, once again, you have descended to the level of personal insult, which is an indication of having no valid arguments left.
 
Perhaps there is no need to reject science in order to be a conservative.
You already know this to be true from the last time you had this conversation. You ultimately decided it was only Christian Conservatives who refuted such scientific theories.

Why then, do they do so? That question deserves some more scrutiny, don't you think? What is the connection?
So you believe their reaction to theories you support deserve scrutiny but the theories you're supporting deserve no scrutiny at all...

Please answer the following questions with a yes or no,

Are there any flaws in GTR?
Are there any flaws in AGW theory?
Are there any flaws in the theory of evolution?
 
"Are there any flaws in GTR?"

Yes.

"Are there any flaws in AGW theory?"

Yes.

"Are there any flaws in the theory of evolution?"

Yes.

Do you believe they would be scientific theories if they didn't? Do you believe that they have no merit because they have flaws?

My turn.

Does the theory of gravity have flaws?
Does the theory of flight have flaws?
Does germ theory have flaws?

If you answered yes to these questions, then my next question is how do any flaws in these theories negate their overall validity when we see every day the amazing scientific advances they have given us?
 
You already know this to be true from the last time you had this conversation. You ultimately decided it was only Christian Conservatives who refuted such scientific theories.

Yes, and yet is seems that every time any of the above comes up, anyone calling themselves a conservative wants to reject those theories. Are they all Christian conservatives, then? Is there no other kind?

So you believe their reaction to theories you support deserve scrutiny but the theories you're supporting deserve no scrutiny at all...

Please answer the following questions with a yes or no,

Are there any flaws in GTR?
Are there any flaws in AGW theory?
Are there any flaws in the theory of evolution?

Of course they deserve scrutiny. All of science deserves scrutiny, and gets it every day from scientists.

orogenicman has given a good response to your questions.
 
how do any flaws in these theories negate their overall validity

The act of elevating these theories to the level of scientific fact, without first resolving the flaws, for the purpose of enacting political legislation that violates individual rights is what I have a problem with.

If you were not demanding that everyone alter their lives to accommodate your beliefs, I wouldn't care. You are free to believe whatever you like, your beliefs are no threat to me or my freedom. However, the actions you take based on your beliefs must not be allowed to violate any individuals rights.

While I'm speaking primarily about a belief in AGW, the above holds true for any belief that demands actions which threaten individual rights.

"Warmers" have two options, convince the "deniers" that AGW is correct so they go along with it willingly, or use force against the "deniers" in order to ensure compliance with the belief.

Rather than using facts and logic to convince people ("warmers" are quick to insist "deniers" reject facts and logic), "warmers" have resorted to fraud (e.g. hockey sticks and cherry picked data), which has been incredibly effective with the short attention span crowd but there are still some skeptics who do not share the belief.

Having attained a perceived majority through their use of fraud, the "warmers" are now looking to use the power of government to employ the use of force against the remaining "deniers" to ensure compliance with the AGW belief and it's being done under the banners of Democracy and Consensus.

Demanding that a flawed theory is correct simply because a theory with fewer flaws has yet to be offered is not a very convincing argument in favor of your theory. If you truly were interested in convincing people about the truth of your theory, acknowledge it's flaws openly and seek resolution from others who support the theory. Ignoring or sidestepping flaws in your theory only fuels skepticism and resorting to force to end the debate is thuggery.
 
Then why the animosity towards those who scrutinize what you know to be flawed theories?

Animosity?

I really don't hold any animosity toward people who want to reject the theory of evolution, the hypothesis of AGW, or relativity.

Just because I might wonder just how anyone in this day and age might reject basic science, that doesn't mean I dislike them. I don't even dislike people who see the world in terms of left = good, right = bad, or vice versa. I just like to point out problems with their point of view, you know, scrutinize the positions that they take.

Now, as to flawed theories, orogenicman pointed out three more.

If there are still unanswered questions about the germ theory of disease, and of course there are, are we going to treat diseases with the old remedies that were used before germ theory was established?

Would it be showing animosity to point out that someone arguing that microbes don't, in fact, cause diseases, is arguing a point that has no validity, no facts to back it up?
 
Animosity?
Antagonistic attitude... Contemptuous towards those who disagree...

Just because I might wonder just how anyone in this day and age might reject basic science, that doesn't mean I dislike them.
No, you don't dislike them, you just think their stupid... After all, no intelligent person would scrutinize AGW... It is just "basic science", right?

Now, as to flawed theories, orogenicman pointed out three more.

I don't mind repeating myself,

The act of elevating these theories to the level of scientific fact, without first resolving the flaws, for the purpose of enacting political legislation that violates individual rights is what I have a problem with.

Using germ theory to create a new drug or vaccine as a result of private enterprise is no threat to my individual rights. Now if you want to use germ theory as an excuse to violate my individual rights, then we have a problem.
 
The act of elevating these theories to the level of scientific fact, without first resolving the flaws, for the purpose of enacting political legislation that violates individual rights is what I have a problem with.

First of all, scientific theories are not facts. Scientific theories explains facts. For example, gravity is a fact. The theory of gravity explains the fact of gravity. Secondly what individual rights do you think scientific theories violate? For example, do you have a right to drive a car? No. Driving is a priviledge, not a right. Do you have a right to pollute the atmosphere and cause harm to other people and other life forms? No. Does the theory of evolution deny you your right to believe in God? No. What rights do you see scientific theories violating?

"If you were not demanding that everyone alter their lives to accommodate your beliefs, I wouldn't care."

Laws against murder certainly require you to accomodate the beliefs of others, does it not? Partiocularly if you are a murderer who believes it is ok to murder. We are a social species. If you want to live outside of society, that, of course, is something you can do. But don't expect others to abide by your wishes that something not be done to mitigate the terrible global burden that pollution and the destruction of habitats is heaping upon our children's future. You do not have that right.

"You are free to believe whatever you like, your beliefs are no threat to me or my freedom."

If that were true, you wouldn't be so deadset against scientific advancement which promoses to make the world a better place for all life on Earth.

"However, the actions you take based on your beliefs must not be allowed to violate any individuals rights."

Again, what rights do you believe you have that are being violated?

"While I'm speaking primarily about a belief in AGW, the above holds true for any belief that demands actions which threaten individual rights."

Again, what rights do you think you have that AGW violates?

"Warmers" have two options, convince the "deniers" that AGW is correct so they go along with it willingly, or use force against the "deniers" in order to ensure compliance with the belief.

This is like asking hollow Earth believes to accept that the Earth is not hollow. And I'm afraid that science is simply not going to wait around until every crackpot is concivnced that they are wrong.

"Rather than using facts and logic to convince people ("warmers" are quick to insist "deniers" reject facts and logic), "warmers" have resorted to fraud (e.g. hockey sticks and cherry picked data), which has been incredibly effective with the short attention span crowd but there are still some skeptics who do not share the belief."

Really? Fraud? I expect you will next provide us with a list of those scientists who have been charged and convicted of this "fraud". Yes? No? And I think it is priceless to see someone from the right complaining about cherry picked data. Simply astounding, that.

"Having attained a perceived majority through their use of fraud, the "warmers" are now looking to use the power of government to employ the use of force against the remaining "deniers" to ensure compliance with the AGW belief and it's being done under the banners of Democracy and Consensus."

Let's see. Airplanes fly. The theory of flight explains the fact of flight. And yet we have the FAA, which GOVERNS the ability of people to fly anywhere in this country. Do you see a pattern occurring here? Do you see a pattern in the governance of power plants to operate? Do you think you have a right to build a power plant unhindered by government oversight? What gives you such a right?

"Demanding that a flawed theory is correct simply because a theory with fewer flaws has yet to be offered is not a very convincing argument in favor of your theory. If you truly were interested in convincing people about the truth of your theory, acknowledge it's flaws openly and seek resolution from others who support the theory. Ignoring or sidestepping flaws in your theory only fuels skepticism and resorting to force to end the debate is thuggery".

Scientific theories, for all their flaws, are the best explanations for the phenomenon they explain. You are welcome to come up with alternatives. But don't expect the scientific community to simply accept them at their face value until you can convince them that your theories have merit and explain phenomenon better than current theories do. That's the way it works for everyone, dude.
 
"No, you don't dislike them, you just think their stupid... After all, no intelligent person would scrutinize AGW... It is just "basic science", right?"

Intelligent people scrutinize AGW every day, and ever other scientific theory, for that matter. What is stupid is when certain people, for political, economic, or religious purposes, vilify science and the people who conduct research. We can have an intelligent discussion of all these theories. Name calling, and vilifying people or ideas does nothing to further understanding.
 
"The act of elevating these theories to the level of scientific fact, without first resolving the flaws, for the purpose of enacting political legislation that violates individual rights is what I have a problem with."

I don't mind repeating myself either, if that helps. First of all, scientific theories are not facts. Scientific theories explains facts. For example, gravity is a fact. The theory of gravity explains the fact of gravity. Secondly what individual rights do you think scientific theories violate? For example, do you have a right to drive a car? No. Driving is a priviledge, not a right. Do you have a right to pollute the atmosphere and cause harm to other people and other life forms? No. Does the theory of evolution deny you your right to believe in God? No. What rights do you see scientific theories violating?
 
By the way, GenSeneca, you didn't answer my question:

"how do any flaws in these theories negate their overall validity?"
 
My priest? Paelrider, let me ask you a couple of honest questions and I expect you to give me some honest answers, if you are able.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. What does my reference to the small cabal who evidently believe the hypothesis of agw as priests have to do with my education. I use the term because the tactics being used are very much akin to the tactics used by the power hungry high priests of old. They had some insight into the natural world that the average joe didn't. They used those insights to convince the average joe that they had power, or access to power that the average joe couldn't even imagine and that if average joe didn't get in line and sacrifice, bad things were going to happen.

For anyone who has taken a good long look at paleohistory, the present warming cycle is not surprising in the least. My bet is that the average joe hasn't and really wouldn't even know where to begin, even in the internet age. I mean really, if you look at the graph I gave you earlier describing the climate history of the earth back as far as possible, if you were going to make a bet on what the long term temperature trend will be, would you put your money on warming or cooling? So this small group (early on climate scientists didn't extend much beyond poorly paid meterologists and a good gig was being a weatherman on TV) start claiming that CO2 (the product of evil capitalism) (religious connotation, sin) is going to cause the earth to warm and warm and warm till we all die.

Never mind that they know that CO2 has no such power, the press will help out because the press doesn't like capitalism either. They, along with their helpers, the press start telling joe blow that if he doesn't get in line and sacrifice, the earth is going to burn up. As the religion grew, the myth grew with it. All sorts of "science" has been fabricated to support the myth. Hell, you have presented a bucket load of it. Most of what you have brought here to support your claims is the result of computer simulations (fabrication) rather than hard observed data.

In the end, you are no more than an acolyte preaching the manufactured science of your high priests. You are a missionary of the high church of anthropogenic global warming witnessing to me and anyone else who will listen from the book of AGW. You are repeating the myths the best you can and presenting your manufactured "science" in an effort to trick anyone you can into believing that it represents actual observed data.

In the end your message is that I must bow and sacrifice or I, and my children unto the umteenth generation will burn.


Have you ever attended college? Was your major biochemistry? What degrees did you earn? Do you work in that field currently? If so, do your colleagues know that you refer to them as "priests"?

I will answer your meaningless, diversionary questions although they have nothing to do with the conversation as I don't expect for you to believe anything based on my say so. In large part, I have supported my postiion with peer reviewed studies baseYed on actual observed data.

Yes, I went to college. Several of them as a matter of fact. I received my BS in biochemistry from The University of Florida, Gainsville. I did my masters work at the Medical University of South Carolina.

Yes, I work in the field currently and have for nearly 4 decades.

And to what miniscule percentage of my collegues who subscribe to the hypothesis of agw and attempt to preach it to me, emhaptically yes, I call them priests.

Claims that global warming is not happening on the basis of short-term ocean temperatures are not supported by the evidence.

First, I never claimed that warming wasn't happening or that cooling wasn't happening and I didn't base the claim on ocean temperatures. I stated that the oceans are cooling and you claimed that they weren't. Now you post data that acknowledges that they are in fact cooling but claim that doesn't prove that warming has stopped which I never claimed in the first place. Once more, you are tilting at straw windmills of your own construction Don.

The only problem with yuour argument is that you actually DO think it is a big conspiracy, dude.

There is no problem with my argument. A relatively small group of scientists pushing bad science, and unsupportable claims of disaster being supported, bolstered and abetted by the press, and an abjectly corrupt world political body. What does that sound like to you. If you can prove that there is no conspiracy, by all means step on up to the plate and do it. You can end the entire thing by posting a bit of hard, observed evidence that establishes an unequivocal link between man's activities and the changing climate.

That has been the challenge all along and rather than post the evidence that we both know doesn't exist, or simply admit that you can't answer the challenge, you have proselytized for pages now. Here is a hint. Till you can provide some hard observed evidence that man is responsible for climate change, I am not going to convert.

Your shrugging off the idea of a cooperation between the press, the UN, politicians, and a rather small group of scientists remains a logical fallacy till such time as you can prove that the science is sound and the evidence exists.

(continued)
 
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(continuation)

The Permian eruptions in Siberia in particular caused the Permian-triassic extinction event because it released so much CO2 over the course of about 2 million years in a long sequence (documented both in Siberia and in sediments in Greenland) that it caused a global warming event that raised global temperatures by 10 degrees C. And I don't think even you can ignore the severe consequences of such a huge increase in global temperatures. Certainly not with a fossil record that shows thqat 80% of all species were wiped out in that event.

Really? Looking at the graps of what we know about the climate history of the earth, I don't see anything like what you describe. I am looking for a 10 degree increase and just can't find it. Point it out if you don't mind. What I see is a couple of degrees above the temperature that the earth has spent the bulk of its history at. A far higher temperature, by the way, than we have see being that we are living in an ice age.

Note the CO2 in the first graph. Now look back to before the ice age began, clearly, CO2 was not the culprit.

Tempcycles.gif
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globaltemp1.jpg
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Posting "evidence" from conservative climate change skeptics blogs, most of whom are written not by scientists but by political pundants, is not evidence any scientist I know will accept as being credible. For instance, the infamous wattsup blog site is owned and edited by a guy who has a bachelor's degree in meteorology and is a former weatherman with no formal scientific peer reviewed publication to his credit. And what's even worse, he's a creationist. Sorry dude, that just doesn't get it.

I suggest that you look back. Most of what I have posted has been from peer reviewed studies and what has come from blogs has been based on peer reviewed studies. You have done precious little rebutting of any of it with actual observed data that counters it. Your complaints about sources is just one more logical fallacy in your very deep bag of logical fallacy. This one is called a circumstantial ad hominem.

From the Nizkor project:

A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy in which one attempts to attack a claim by asserting that the person making the claim is making it simply out of self interest. In some cases, this fallacy involves substituting an attack on a person's circumstances (such as the person's religion, political affiliation, ethnic background, etc.). The fallacy has the following forms:

Description of Circumstantial Ad Hominem

A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy in which one attempts to attack a claim by asserting that the person making the claim is making it simply out of self interest. In some cases, this fallacy involves substituting an attack on a person's circumstances (such as the person's religion, political affiliation, ethnic background, etc.). The fallacy has the following forms:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B asserts that A makes claim X because it is in A's interest to claim X.
Therefore claim X is false.

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on A's circumstances.
Therefore X is false.

A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy because a person's interests and circumstances have no bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made. While a person's interests will provide them with motives to support certain claims, the claims stand or fall on their own


You complained about my source for the vostok ice core data. I asked you to point out any errors. You didn't. I knew you wouldn't because I had already checked the data against other "less attractive and harder to read sources". Now you are complaining about the education of the author of the what's up with that blog. He is citing peer reviewed studies, not his own opinion. If you want to refute any claim that has come from that source, by all means, step on up to the plate and refute it with hard, observed data. Don't mewl and pewl because you don't like the source.

And before you go off on my complaints about wiki, I provided evidence that data dealing with climate change from wiki is suspect as no release from wiki stating that the thousands of articles deleted, fabricated, or rewritten by connolly have been corrected.

Note: Unless you can combine some of your posts, I am going to discontinue the conversation as I grow tired of trying to keep track of your end of the conversation.
 
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