Another gleaming example (U.N.)

[Andy]

I of course do not back Hamas or its actions, I am simply pointing out that saying X did this first is pointless and stupid at this point as everything on both sides is a reaction to actions on the other side. Israel reacts to Hamas, who reacts to Israels actions who Reacts to Hamas, and it goes on and on....there is never a X event that starts it at this point.

also since when did I not care about a morter hitting a school on any side? I hate the nation of Israel, but am not going sit and not care when kids are killed.

Israel does not attack unless provoked. When did Israel invade Lebanon?

In 2000, under the useless U.N., Israel pulled out of Southern Lebanon, and of course Hezbollah moved right in. From there, Hezbollah randomly attacked patrols near the boarder. Israel never returned fire.

Finely, in 2006, Hezbollah fired mortars into Israeli cities from southern Lebanon, and Israel launched an all out war.

Now since you think you got the answers, what would you have done?


You claim both sides are just reacting to each other. I disagree. Israel is reacting. Hamas is provoking. Do you realize how many years the violence in palestine was minimal? Do you know how many times Israel has not reacted to the Arabs in an effort of peace? You remember that Israel offered to give Arafat nearly half of their land for peace, and he refused?

This is because peace has never been a goal for the Arabs in palestine. The only goal is the complete destruction and slaughter of Israel and all the Jews there. Even the Gaza Strip itself, was offered on a platter to Eqypt after Israel won the war. Eqypt refused, and even built a wall around the Gaza boarder. They don't want peace. They want the death of Israel, and nothing less.

 

[Sihouette]

As gruesome as you like to paint your one-sided story, ignoring that Israel too keeps fueling the fires of conflict, you still haven't addressed what Yahweh Commanded Here:

...6. "You shall not murder!" (Shemot 20:13)

This is one of the three cardinal sins in Judaism, for which an individual is obligated to give up his life. This means that if Person A approaches Person B and says to him, "I will kill you if you do not kill person C," Person B should allow himself to be killed, rather than murder Person C....
Source: http://www.ou.org/chagim/shavuot/aseret.htm

Rather than kill...so why Command the Law and then supposedly repeal it later on convenience?

And again, you haven't addressed how we should get behind secular jews in Israel when the whole deal about Israel's occupying that region is for devout religious purposes??

I mean, that IS the reason we're supposed to all be on board, right? What is all the fighting about if not for the deep and meaningful roots of judaism occupying the sacred land that is supposedly theirs by Devine Birthright? You cannot denounce your God's Laws, alter them or thumb your nose at them altogether and then wave the flag of religion as your justification to kill other people?

Please, please resolve this dichotomy for my satisfaction. My mind likes logic and it's starting to smoke and sputter right now..

 

[Andy]

As gruesome as you like to paint your one-sided story, ignoring that Israel too keeps fueling the fires of conflict, you still haven't addressed what Yahweh Commanded Here:


Rather than kill...so why Command the Law and then supposedly repeal it later on convenience?

And again, you haven't addressed how we should get behind secular jews in Israel when the whole deal about Israel's occupying that region is for devout religious purposes??

I mean, that IS the reason we're supposed to all be on board, right? What is all the fighting about if not for the deep and meaningful roots of judaism occupying the sacred land that is supposedly theirs by Devine Birthright? You cannot denounce your God's Laws, alter them or thumb your nose at them altogether and then wave the flag of religion as your justification to kill other people?

Please, please resolve this dichotomy for my satisfaction. My mind likes logic and it's starting to smoke and sputter right now..

I don't think you and I will ever see eye-to-eye on this. I don't see it as murder. The Jews obviously don't see it as murder either. It's a war. Just as if Mexico fired rockets on us, a response wouldn't be "murder" it would be war. Murder is the Arabs in Palestine slaughtering their own people on the random accusation of being a spy for the Jews.

You can restate the law against murder all you want. Since it doesn't apply, it's just a nifty repeat of old testament law.

Or are you contending that all killing is murder without question?

That would be an interesting concept. Let's think that through... so if an army from Mexico were to march up and start slaughtering people and invading your state, you'd.... do nothing I suppose? Obviously the police are not going to stop an army, and clearly you can't shoot back because all killing is murder, so you just.... roll over and die?

Let me ask you, where does the grounds of "murder" end, and "war" begin? What exactly is your solution to the problem? What would you suggest the Israelis do? A bunch of mortars just landed on the house next door, and it's entirely possible if they are not stopped, your death, or your families, could be next. What should we do?

I support Israel for a number of reasons. As for religious vs secular, I think the U.N. supported the state of Israel. If that isn't enough, then the surrounding nations are also invalid as well.

Of course religiously, if you wish to argue from that perspective, then Israel not only has right to it's land, and the Gaza Strip, but also to southern Lebenon and Jordan, and a few other small areas. In which case, you should be arguing for them to open hostilities with those areas, and wage war to take their rightful land.

 

[Sihouette]

War is always about killing. So an orthodox jew would be Legally (with a capital "L" ) compelled to do triple back-flips to placate and resolve the situation instead of killing. In fact, technically, an orthodox jew would have to allow himself to be killed rather than kill another. So also, technically, war would be forbidden for devout jews to engage in.

Now, Israel supposedly exists and is therefore contesting real estate with Palestine over DEVOUT RELIGIOUS REASONS. The only way they are allowed, within Yahweh's clear Commandment, to resolve those issues is by peacable means, or else lay down their own lives rather than kill for real estate.

Meanwhile as you say secular or non-devout jews fight and kill quite apparently for non-devout reasons over real estate. And how is it again we're supposed to back them for the sublime and devout reason of their occupation based on Devine Birthright?

I think having the assignments of orthodoxy living peacefully by secularism within the same jewish community is a gross distortion of the jewish faith. If they can live amongst heretics in the house next door, why then can't devout jews live next door to christian Palestinians without fuss? "Respecting" secular jews on the orthodox's behalf is maybe even worse than respecting Palestinians. Because Palestinians were born "not knowing the proper way to live" right? So an orthodox jew staring at the maw of a secular "jew" must do so knowing that person was raised to know Yahweh and then actively chose to turn his back on the faith and do all manner of sacrilige against the faith of the house they were raised in.

And there goes, By the way, "honor thy father and mother".

 

[Pandora]

OK *jots more in notebook*

So..the secular jews then don't consider Israel their "sacred occupation"?

Right? They cannot occupy based on faith and then denounce the faith and still want people to sympathize with them?

What percentage of Israel is secular and what is devout? Perhaps we can only allow orthodox jews our sympathies to occupy Israel on religious grounds?

In that case we could only sympathize with those jews not involved in combat. It follows logically..

Native Americans do not hold certian lands due to religous reasons, they do so because its rightfully theirs.


Earlier you said you held Islam to the same yet I have not read you going on about them like you are with Jews. Can you please do a bit of ranting about them too, just to make it fair?

 

[Sihouette]

OK, just for you, just to be "fair"...

I think Iranians are all pigs, liars and heretics and should be mercilessly slaughtered...at least the leaders...the ones that won't go along with BigOil politics...and then, then we could um, "establish at democratic Iran". (code for "sympathetic to American oil interests")

Those swine Iranians anyway...when are they going to retaliate for the recent Gaza activities so we can get the Congressional go-ahead to "defend" ourselves from them"...lol...


*checks watch on left wrist*

C'mon fer crissakes! When are they going to retaliate!

*wraps arms around chest and begins impatiently tapping foot*

There, is that what you were looking for?

I told you, the current CIA stands for Criminal Invasion Agitators

Oil is their name and meddling in the Middle East is their game...all hail Texas!

 

[Sihouette]

I still haven't heard a good response about why secular jews are even considered jews for that matter? Jews are not a nationality, they are a faith. And since they are a faith that encompasses all nationalities if they so choose to be jews, "faith" is the determining factor of whether or not someone is a jew.

And we all know Israel is about jews and judaism. And yet secular, essentially non-jews are bombing disputed terriroty all in the name of that religion's supposed sacred rights to occupy that acreage over in Sand-Land..

I can tell you that there is way more prime land to fight over than a bunch of dusty, rubble-ridden ruins. Why to they fight over it? Faith...religion... And the ultimate irony is that that same religion forbids them, in the Ten Big Laws to not put emphasis of worship as tied to faith on anything that is carved of the Earth...including land...

They're blasphemers...carrying on the way they do.

Of course with Islam there are people who don't "get" the Koran...plenty of them. The Koran itself is not a bad book either...plenty of good advice for getting along with the neighbors..how to conduct one's daily affairs and so on. The Bible has some nuggets of wisdom. The Tao too...and the Hindi faith of reincarnation..one of my personal favorites. They all have good advice and a bunch of hoo-ha too accumulated from contemporary politics conflicting with the word of each of their respective "Allmighties".

Wanna know what my religion is? It is the relgion of "_____". You see, I can't name it, because the minute I try to give a human name to what it is I believe and practice, like a grain of truth in an oyster it will start to have layers of (beautiful at first, I'll admit) nacre put over it, at first to adorn it and to "worship it better", but after the years go on there is so much nacre from all sorts of sources that have their own way of wanting to see the truth, instead of actually seeing it...that the "pearl" becomes the faith and the nugget of truth inside is all but forgotten..

A rolling stone gathers no moss.. I keep my faith fresh, unnamed and always rolling..

The Ten Commandments of the Old Testament is the only true grain of truth...all the other 613 are layers of nacre put in place by well-meaning holy men, some of them valid, others no longer so...but all still adhered to as if they were more important than the Supreme 10

 

[Pandora]

I still haven't heard a good response about why secular jews are even considered jews for that matter? Jews are not a nationality, they are a faith. And since they are a faith that encompasses all nationalities if they so choose to be jews, "faith" is the determining factor of whether or not someone is a jew.

And we all know Israel is about jews and judaism. And yet secular, essentially non-jews are bombing disputed terriroty all in the name of that religion's supposed sacred rights to occupy that acreage over in Sand-Land..

I can tell you that there is way more prime land to fight over than a bunch of dusty, rubble-ridden ruins. Why to they fight over it? Faith...religion... And the ultimate irony is that that same religion forbids them, in the Ten Big Laws to not put emphasis of worship as tied to faith on anything that is carved of the Earth...including land...

They're blasphemers...carrying on the way they do.

Of course with Islam there are people who don't "get" the Koran...plenty of them. The Koran itself is not a bad book either...plenty of good advice for getting along with the neighbors..how to conduct one's daily affairs and so on. The Bible has some nuggets of wisdom. The Tao too...and the Hindi faith of reincarnation..one of my personal favorites. They all have good advice and a bunch of hoo-ha too accumulated from contemporary politics conflicting with the word of each of their respective "Allmighties".

Wanna know what my religion is? It is the relgion of "_____". You see, I can't name it, because the minute I try to give a human name to what it is I believe and practice, like a grain of truth in an oyster it will start to have layers of (beautiful at first, I'll admit) nacre put over it, at first to adorn it and to "worship it better", but after the years go on there is so much nacre from all sorts of sources that have their own way of wanting to see the truth, instead of actually seeing it...that the "pearl" becomes the faith and the nugget of truth inside is all but forgotten..

A rolling stone gathers no moss.. I keep my faith fresh, unnamed and always rolling..

The Ten Commandments of the Old Testament is the only true grain of truth...all the other 613 are layers of nacre put in place by well-meaning holy men, some of them valid, others no longer so...but all still adhered to as if they were more important than the Supreme 10

There are three kinds of Jews

Jews that are Jews because of the blood line

Jews that are jews because of blood line and also follow the religous teachings

converts to Judaism

you can be Jewish by birth but not in your faith. I know many Jews who are Chrisitan by faith, some that are Muslim by faith some that believe in nothing and some that follow the Jewish religion.

I am Native American but I reject the religous / spiritual teachings of my people that does not make me any less Native

 

[Andy]

War is always about killing. So an orthodox jew would be Legally (with a capital "L" ) compelled to do triple back-flips to placate and resolve the situation instead of killing. In fact, technically, an orthodox jew would have to allow himself to be killed rather than kill another. So also, technically, war would be forbidden for devout jews to engage in.

Not so. The law is against murder. Not killing. In fact, capital punishment was supported by Yahweh as a resolution for murder.

Similarly, in matters of national security, a response is required.

Now, Israel supposedly exists and is therefore contesting real estate with Palestine over DEVOUT RELIGIOUS REASONS. The only way they are allowed, within Yahweh's clear Commandment, to resolve those issues is by peacable means, or else lay down their own lives rather than kill for real estate.

First, Israel exist where it does, because that is the historic homeland of the Jew.

Second, they exist there because the U.N. approved the land for a Jewish state.

Third, Israel has conquered the land in wars waged against Israel.

Forth, Israel has never engaged in war for the purpose of land expansion, but rather land expansion has been a natural result of winning wars.

Meanwhile as you say secular or non-devout jews fight and kill quite apparently for non-devout reasons over real estate. And how is it again we're supposed to back them for the sublime and devout reason of their occupation based on Devine Birthright?

Reasons to support Israel are not restricted to religious reasons. I also support them because they have as much a right to exist there, as anywhere else.

I think having the assignments of orthodoxy living peacefully by secularism within the same jewish community is a gross distortion of the jewish faith. If they can live amongst heretics in the house next door, why then can't devout jews live next door to christian Palestinians without fuss? "Respecting" secular jews on the orthodox's behalf is maybe even worse than respecting Palestinians. Because Palestinians were born "not knowing the proper way to live" right? So an orthodox jew staring at the maw of a secular "jew" must do so knowing that person was raised to know Yahweh and then actively chose to turn his back on the faith and do all manner of sacrilige against the faith of the house they were raised in.

You are operating from a world view, that it this point, I don't even understand. For example, you ask the question why can't devout Jews live next door to christian Palestinians without a fuss.... Well... they CAN... and they DO... so I don't understand the purpose of the question.

You then discus Palestinians as if they are external to Jews. Jews ARE the palestinians. Palestine is the entire area of ancient Israel. Many of the Jews that live there, are of families and ancestry that have lived in the land of Palestine since the time of Roman occupation.

In fact, there are no "Palestinians". Palestine was simply a made up name, given to the area called Israel, specifically by the Romans to piss off the Jews. Which goes back again to my point, Palestinians ARE the Jews.

Last of all, you act as if the Jews are just randomly attacking to take land. Again, I don't even know how one would believe such a fantasy. Only after Israel was attacked by Eqypt did they take the Gaza Strip. Only after Syria attacked did they take the Golan Heights.

Thus far, and if you can prove me wrong, by all means, I have yet to see a single time in which Israel has taken land without being provoked to do so by acts of war.

 

[Andy]

I still haven't heard a good response about why secular jews are even considered jews for that matter? Jews are not a nationality, they are a faith. And since they are a faith that encompasses all nationalities if they so choose to be jews, "faith" is the determining factor of whether or not someone is a jew.

Jews are Jewish from their ancestry from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It's a curious thing that multi generation families that have never lived in Israel, never been to the "holy land", never practiced Judaism, will nevertheless know they are Jews.

I myself see it as a truth of Biblical prophecy. The Bible states in Deuteronomy 28:64-

Moreover, the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known.

Clearly that happened. Yet it also says in Ezekial 37:13-

Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.

In other words, the Jews would be all over the world, and would not follow Judaism, and yet would remain a distinct identifiable people group. What you witness to yourself, is the fulfillment of that Biblical truth. Even those Jews that completely reject all notion of a god, unwittingly prove the prophecy correct by adamantly showing their Jewish heritage.

And we all know Israel is about jews and judaism. And yet secular, essentially non-jews are bombing disputed terriroty all in the name of that religion's supposed sacred rights to occupy that acreage over in Sand-Land..

First, the bombings are not happening in "disputed territories". At least they are not *only* happening in "disputed territories". They are happening everywhere that they are able to hit. Mortars fired from Lebanon are hitting whatever city or settlement they have the range to hit. It was not, and is not, confined to any disputed area.

Second, the Arabs are using whatever excuse happens to be convenient at the time. If it happens to be a claim they have a right to a "disputed area", then they use it. If it happens to be a claim to a "religious" site, they use it.

In reality, the disputed area is the entire state of Israel, and there are no religious sites. The Qur'an never mentions Palestine, Dome of the Rock, or Jerusalem. In fact, the only location even mentioned in the Qur'an as being holy is Mecca in Saudi Arabia.

I can tell you that there is way more prime land to fight over than a bunch of dusty, rubble-ridden ruins. Why to they fight over it? Faith...religion... And the ultimate irony is that that same religion forbids them, in the Ten Big Laws to not put emphasis of worship as tied to faith on anything that is carved of the Earth...including land...

You are basically saying the Jews should commit indirect suicide by submitting to the genocide of their enemies.

They're blasphemers...carrying on the way they do.

That doesn't make any logical sense. According to Torah, the Jews have a divine imperative to take the land G-d established for the Jews. Then you turn around and accuse them of blasphemy for doing what G-d told them to do.... this is illogical.

Wanna know what my religion is? It is the relgion of "_____". You see, I can't name it, because the minute I try to give a human name to what it is I believe and practice, like a grain of truth in an oyster it will start to have layers of (beautiful at first, I'll admit) nacre put over it, at first to adorn it and to "worship it better", but after the years go on there is so much nacre from all sorts of sources that have their own way of wanting to see the truth, instead of actually seeing it...that the "pearl" becomes the faith and the nugget of truth inside is all but forgotten..

Can l give it a name? "BigOil Conspiracyism" comes to mind! Takes tons of faith, zero evidence, and amazing predictions of the future.

The Ten Commandments of the Old Testament is the only true grain of truth...all the other 613 are layers of nacre put in place by well-meaning holy men, some of them valid, others no longer so...but all still adhered to as if they were more important than the Supreme 10

Really? How about the prophecy that Zion would be plowed like a field in 700 B.C., and in 134 A.D. the Romans ran an actual plow through Zion during their conquest of the Jews? Is that a grain of truth?


But if you really want to know what is funny about this whole thread... while you are accusing the Jews of being blasphemers and not following the word of their G-d, what you might not know is, the Qur'an actually states explicitly that Israel is given to the Jews by "Allah", and that he will regather the Jewish people to Israel in the last days.

It's in Sura 17 verse 100-104. Perhaps you should ask why Hezbollah and Hamas, and the Muslims in Gaza, are fighting to take the land from the people, their own god said, was rightfully theirs?

So tell me, is BigOil and evil western nations causing Islamic followers to reject their god's word for greed? Are all the islamic militants really greedy oil drillers? How does this fit with your conspiracy theory?

 

[Dr.Who]

I do! I do hold everyone accountable for any act that spits in the face of the God of their faith..

I am not taking sides, but merely pointing out some glaring inconsistencies. I'll alleged that true Israelis...true orthodox jews would never think in a million years to cross the word of the almighty Yahweh. If they are freaking about about their RELIGIOUS "right" to occupy, and yet are not devout...then there is something else going on...

I smell US influence roasting Israeli souls in the fires of Hell...from nefarious influences and agendas..



Interfering in Middle Eastern countries is the favorite pastime of the GOP...

Good point.

 

[Dr.Who]

In your mind it is fitting. But is it fitting in Yahweh's mind?

That is the only relevant question facing Israelis..

Unless the Israelis are secular and lay claim to the land based on secular reasoning.

 

[Sihouette]

If that's the case, then they have less rights to be there than their more continuously-occupying neighbors...who are many christians...and logically the ones we, as a predominantly christian nation, should be behind..the palestinians.

Let's look at what Andy wrote:

Jews are Jewish from their ancestry from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It's a curious thing that multi generation families that have never lived in Israel, never been to the "holy land", never practiced Judaism, will nevertheless know they are Jews.

Jews are not jews from ancestory any more than christians are christians from ancestory. You either ascribe to the faith or you don't. I, for instance, could become a jew if I studied the Torah, passed the hebrew lessons and was formally inducted into a temple. The jewish guy I dated spoke with me about this. So even though I'm not of some long lineage of jewish people (although one or two of my ancestors happend to practice judiasm), I still could be a jew.

So faith is the determining factor. Andy, you like to jump around on both sides of the fence with this one. On the one hand you tell us to excuse the "jews" that are bombing on the Sabbath..due to some human-made technicality. Yahweh did not make an 11th Commandment that said: "Oh, by the way, if these first 10 don't suit you, you can ad-lib." The Ten Commandments are held higher than any else of the lesser and many insist: human ad-libbed laws. Then when that argument sinks in you flip over to 'well it doesn't matter because the bombers are secular jews.

No, they're not jews if they are secular any more than someone who is secular is also, simultaneously christian. I once heard this extremely hedonistic woman I know, who used to be devout christian, say "you either live by the rules or you don't." She proudly waved the flag of "don't". And I remember my respect for her actually climbing instead of sinking because of how many "christians" I know who warm pews and then go back home the other 6 days of the week and do as bad as she did, or worse, but were sure they were "saved" (and therefore hypocritically judgmental of others) because of going through the motions of "being faithful".

You either follow the Ten Commandments or you don't. You are either a jew, or you're not.

 

[Andy]

If that's the case, then they have less rights to be there than their more continuously-occupying neighbors...who are many christians...and logically the ones we, as a predominantly christian nation, should be behind..the palestinians.

Huh? Jews have ALWAYS been in Palestine since they came out of Eqypt, and briefly before that. They were there during the Babylonians, the Romans, the Byzantine, the Crusaders, Mamluk, Ottoman, and finely modern Israel. They have always been there. There was never a time between the acient Israel, and the modern one, that Jews have not lived in Palestine.

Further, even the non-Jewish occupations were not continuous by any stretch, and very few were "christian". This is another strange claim of yours.

Christianity was legalized, and you might say nationalized, in Rome in 391 A.D. So prior to that, all non-jewish occupation could NOT be "christian". The "Christian" Byzantine empire only lasted until 630 A.D. For the math impaired, that is 239 Years.

Now from 638 A.D., until 1917 A.D, the Palestine area was ruled by a list of different Islamic leadership. That is 1279 years, minus a brief rule by the Crusaders from 1099 to 1187. That's 88 years. So Islam has ruled for 1191 years, and Christians ruled for 327 years. And in either case, it wasn't continuous.

Now, as to which we as a Christian nation should support, in Genesis 12:2-3, G-d says he will make of Abraham descendants into a great nation, and the he will make Israel a blessing, and he will bless them that bless Israel, and curse them that curse Israel.

I believe this prophecy is fulfilled and being fulfilled. Logically, if we are a Christian nation, we should want to be blessed and not cursed, and I thus support G-ds chosen people in the land he so chooses.

Further, in Joel 3:1-3, G-d says he will restore the fortunes of Israel, and bring the nations for judgement for dividing up his land.

The first prophecy I believe is fulfilled. The second, I believe is in continuous effect. Again, logically we we're a Christian nation, we should be against doing something that will cause judgement to fall on us, and not support anyone but Israel in Palestine.

Jews are not jews from ancestory any more than christians are christians from ancestory. You either ascribe to the faith or you don't. I, for instance, could become a jew if I studied the Torah, passed the hebrew lessons and was formally inducted into a temple. The jewish guy I dated spoke with me about this. So even though I'm not of some long lineage of jewish people (although one or two of my ancestors happend to practice judiasm), I still could be a jew.

I don't understand this. I admit it completely, you have me lost. Are you saying that Jewish people don't identify themselves as Jewish from ancestry? Because I know some Jews personally, that know exactly which of the 12 tribes of Israel they are from, and can trace their linage right back to ancient Israel.

So faith is the determining factor. Andy, you like to jump around on both sides of the fence with this one. On the one hand you tell us to excuse the "jews" that are bombing on the Sabbath..due to some human-made technicality. Yahweh did not make an 11th Commandment that said: "Oh, by the way, if these first 10 don't suit you, you can ad-lib." The Ten Commandments are held higher than any else of the lesser and many insist: human ad-libbed laws. Then when that argument sinks in you flip over to 'well it doesn't matter because the bombers are secular jews.

Actually yes I do. I believe that Israel has a secular and historic, as well as a religious claim to the land. So I tend to argue this specific issue from a number of different view points.

First, I don't tell you to excuse anything. I am simply stating the fact that Judaism does not condemn military actions on any specific day. As to whether you believe that, matters not. I know that convincing you on a issue related to a faith you do not believe in, is pointless and a waste.

Since you do not have faith in the belief system, you can change and twist it to whatever ends you want. Whereas, a true believer in Yahweh will submit to meaning Yahweh gives it.

As such, your attempt to translate one command (not to murder) over another command (to take the land of Israel) is something that could only be done by a non-believer. A believer would research to find the meaning, and realize one deals with individual actions, and the other deals with national actions, and neither is to be over written by the other.

No, they're not jews if they are secular any more than someone who is secular is also, simultaneously christian. I once heard this extremely hedonistic woman I know, who used to be devout christian, say "you either live by the rules or you don't." She proudly waved the flag of "don't". And I remember my respect for her actually climbing instead of sinking because of how many "christians" I know who warm pews and then go back home the other 6 days of the week and do as bad as she did, or worse, but were sure they were "saved" (and therefore hypocritically judgmental of others) because of going through the motions of "being faithful".

Sort of like an ex-president who walked in and out of church every Sunday with a massive Bible, but lied constantly about everything, and was sleeping with nearly every female within range his entire two terms.

You either follow the Ten Commandments or you don't. You are either a jew, or you're not.

I believe they do follow the Ten Commandments as they are intended, not as you have twisted them. I still disagree with being a Jew is limited to religious matters.

 

[Sihouette]

I don't understand this. I admit it completely, you have me lost. Are you saying that Jewish people don't identify themselves as Jewish from ancestry? Because I know some Jews personally, that know exactly which of the 12 tribes of Israel they are from, and can trace their linage right back to ancient Israel

Yes and I know some people who have nazi ancestory too and can name all the nazi war criminals...but that doesn't mean they themselves are nazis.

I can identify myself as a scottswoman and I could make a case for occupying Scotland and telling Britain to piss off and allow me to occupy Scotland and bring it under its own sovereingty again. And all of that would be in line and correct under your reasoning for Israel.

No, you're not fooling anyone, least of all Yahweh. The only thing that makes a jew a jew is the Hebrew faith. Without that faith and religious obedience, you have nothing but an ordinary man or woman with no more claims to ancient lands some of their forefathers occupied than do you or I to old (and I mean really old..predating the jewish faith even, old..) areas of Europe.

And bombing on the Sabbath by its very nature is saying those people sitting in the cockpits pulling the bomb levers are not jews.