Another gleaming example (U.N.)

[pocketfullofshells]

Isn't this great?! Our wonderful U.N. is working to make a better world all over again!



Ok, they called for a cease fire. How many times has that worked in the past? (never) Isn't it funny how they never call for cease-fires when shells are flying into Israeli cities killing Jews, but whenever the terrorist surround themselves with their own children as a human shield, so they can shoot at Israeli military, suddenly, the killing has to stop.


Gaza Strip Hamas using children as human shields.

Of course the U.N. didn't stop there. They requested... I love that, requested that smuggling of "illegal" weapons into Gaza be stopped. Yeah, I'm sure the children sacrificing Hamas militia murderers will all stop fighting if we maybe tell them that smuggling weapons is wrong. That'll work for sure.

Why the heck are we in the U.N. again? We're paying for this useless crap?

of course Israel never provokes attacks, they are just harmless sitting there in peace before the rocket attacks....never ever doing anything wrong.

 

[Sihouette]

I still would like a ref to your 623 laws plus the ten so basicly its 633? Please post some ref for it.~ No Obama

Here's what I actually said:

No Grasshopper, there are 623, 613 lesser laws + The Ten Commandments, which sit above them, always..

Nice try though! It's the thought that counts..

The 613 other laws are lesser laws, most likely tacked on by old jewish custom and human laws of the day. The distinction is made clearly throughout judaism that The Ten Commandments sit Supreme above them.

So if one of the 613 states that it is OK "under certain circumstances" to kill on the Sabbath, you can bet your bottom dollar that Yahwey had nothing to do with that law..

 

[Pandora]

Here's what I actually said:


Nice try though! It's the thought that counts..

The 613 other laws are lesser laws, most likely tacked on by old jewish custom and human laws of the day. The distinction is made clearly throughout judaism that The Ten Commandments sit Supreme above them.

So if one of the 613 states that it is OK "under certain circumstances" to kill on the Sabbath, you can bet your bottom dollar that Yahwey had nothing to do with that law..

Here is a list of the ten and a ref at the bottom from the 613 as to where they cover the ten. I got tired of doing it after 300 and got all ten in. All the 613 does is explain in more detail of the ten. and then some other stuff they wanted to push in their agenda.



also here is a list of Jewish law reguarding war and the Sabbath is not in it.


The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)
1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
(number 2 of the 613)


2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments. (numbers 312-357 of the 613)


3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. (number 3,4, and 5 of the 613)

4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. (numbers 108, 109, 110 and 111 and 303 of the 613)

5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you. (number 59 , 60, 61 and 62of the 613)

6 “You shall not murder. (number 278 of the 613)


7 “You shall not commit adultery. (number 74 and 102 of the 613)


8 “You shall not steal.(number 280 and 281 of the 613)


9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (number 28 and 29 of the 613)

10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”(number 282 and 283 of the 613)






Wars
598. That those engaged in warfare shall not fear their enemies nor be panic-stricken by them during battle (Deut. 3:22, 7:21, 20:3) (negative).
599. To anoint a special kohein (to speak to the soldiers) in a war (Deut. 20:2) (affirmative). See Kohein.
600. In a permissive war (as distinguished from obligatory ones), to observe the procedure prescribed in the Torah (Deut. 20:10) (affirmative).
601. Not to keep alive any individual of the seven Canaanite nations (Deut. 20:16) (negative).
602. To exterminate the seven Canaanite nations from the land of Israel (Deut. 20:17) (affirmative).
603. Not to destroy fruit trees (wantonly or in warfare) (Deut. 20:19-20) (CCN191).
604. To deal with a beautiful woman taken captive in war in the manner prescribed in the Torah (Deut. 21:10-14) (affirmative).
605. Not to sell a beautiful woman, (taken captive in war) (Deut. 21:14) (negative).
606. Not to degrade a beautiful woman (taken captive in war) to the condition of a bondwoman (Deut. 21:14) (negative).
607. Not to offer peace to the Ammonites and the Moabites before waging war on them, as should be done to other nations (Deut. 23:7) (negative).
608. That anyone who is unclean shall not enter the Camp of the Levites (Deut. 23:11) (according to the Talmud, in the present day this means the Temple mount) (CCN193).
609. To have a place outside the camp for sanitary purposes (Deut. 23:13) (affirmative).
610. To keep that place sanitary (Deut. 23:14-15) (affirmative).
611. Always to remember what Amalek did (Deut. 25:17) (CCA76).
612. That the evil done to us by Amalek shall not be forgotten (Deut. 25:19) (CCN194).
613. To destroy the seed of Amalek (Deut. 25:19) (CCA77).

 

[Sihouette]

Oh, OK, so convenience renders the Supreme Ten as subordinate to man's wishes...

*jots more in notebook*. This judaism thing is weird. It reminds me a lot of how the Big Ten were redacted by roman customs of the day around the 9th Century...redacted by men...and not God..

*scribble scribble*

You know, if they're wrong and Yahweh was serious about the Big Ten being Supreme above all others...they could be in a bit of a "legal" pickle at The Big Court Hearing.

They have to go to Hell in any event to find a good lawyer...lol... I just made a funny....tee hee..

 

[Pandora]

Oh, OK, so convenience renders the Supreme Ten as subordinate to man's wishes...

*jots more in notebook*. This judaism thing is weird. It reminds me a lot of how the Big Ten were redacted by roman customs of the day around the 9th Century...redacted by men...and not God..

*scribble scribble*

You know, if they're wrong and Yahweh was serious about the Big Ten being Supreme above all others...they could be in a bit of a "legal" pickle at The Big Court Hearing.

They have to go to Hell in any event to find a good lawyer...lol... I just made a funny....tee hee..

Personally the ten are important to me and they are summed up by Yeshua's words when he said to love God with all your heart soul mind body and spirit and love your neighbor as you love your self, and the rest hang on these. The first 4 commandments (first tablet of stone) tell you how to love God, the second 6 commandments (second tablet on stone) tells you how to love your neighbor. Thus really rounds up to the two Yeshua spoke of.

That is all I need, but I am not Israel and I can’t tell them what to do. I also think the Koran is a joke but I am not about to tell Islam what to think either.

If you think it’s unholy for Israel to fire rockets on the Shabbat then why don’t you hold Islam to the same when they do the same on Friday? (Their version of a holy day.)

 

[Sihouette]

I do! I do hold everyone accountable for any act that spits in the face of the God of their faith..

I am not taking sides, but merely pointing out some glaring inconsistencies. I'll alleged that true Israelis...true orthodox jews would never think in a million years to cross the word of the almighty Yahweh. If they are freaking about about their RELIGIOUS "right" to occupy, and yet are not devout...then there is something else going on...

I smell US influence roasting Israeli souls in the fires of Hell...from nefarious influences and agendas..

the White House tried to organize the armed overthrow of the Hamas-led goverment after Hamas swept Palestinian elections two years ago. According to the article, the Bush administration lied to Congress and boosted military support for rival Palestinian faction Fatah in the aim of provoking a Palestinian civil war they thought Hamas would lose..
Source: http://www.democracynow.org/2008/3/5/iran_contra_20_how_the_bush

Interfering in Middle Eastern countries is the favorite pastime of the GOP...

 

[Pandora]

I do! I do hold everyone accountable for any act that spits in the face of the God of their faith..

I am not taking sides, but merely pointing out some glaring inconsistencies. I'll alleged that true Israelis...true orthodox jews would never think in a million years to cross the word of the almighty Yahweh. If they are freaking about about their RELIGIOUS "right" to occupy, and yet are not devout...then there is something else going on...

I smell US influence roasting Israeli souls in the fires of Hell...from nefarious influences and agendas..



Interfering in Middle Eastern countries is the favorite pastime of the GOP...

Most of Israel is SECULAR, the military is SECULAR, only about 20 percent of Israel is Orthodox and those people would never be part of the Israel army, they study Torah.

Plus Jews are not stupid, they know that their support is leaving power on Jan 20th... they are not going to do something they dont think is best for them just because Bush wants them to do it, Bush is leaving and they will be left hung out to dry and they know it.

You give Bush way to much power and credit

 

[Sihouette]

OK *jots more in notebook*

So..the secular jews then don't consider Israel their "sacred occupation"?

Right? They cannot occupy based on faith and then denounce the faith and still want people to sympathize with them?

What percentage of Israel is secular and what is devout? Perhaps we can only allow orthodox jews our sympathies to occupy Israel on religious grounds?

In that case we could only sympathize with those jews not involved in combat. It follows logically..

 

[Andy]

And according to the U.N. Isreal has a disproportionate response to the bombs being lobbed into their country.

That reminds me of the Star Trek episode where the two worlds have been waging a war for 500 years because they only ever respond proportionally. If five are killed on one side then five are killed on the other side. So it goes on forever.

In real wars one side is better and they react with superior arms and then the war is over. Disproportionate responses are the most moral responses.

If Israel had gone into the Palestinian area 70 years ago and wiped out all the resistance fighters then integrated the rest into the then larger Israel back when the population of the Palestinians was 12 times smaller there would be a whole lot less dead Palestinians and a whole lot less dead Jews too. Even if 10% of the Palestinian population was killed back then it would be less dead than if 1% is killed today. (all numbers are stated for sake of argument and do not neccessarily reflect real stats)

Especially since the militants in the Gaza Strip, don't particularly care that much about minor damage and a few people killed. Clearly from the video, they don't mind innocent bystanders dying while they fight.

Thus, if Israel were to simply fire back a few mortars into Gaza, they way they fire them into Israel, that would not be a deterrent at all to the militants.

The only way to put pressure on the militants who care nothing about civilian casualties, is to do enough damage that the civilians themselves start opposing the militant actions. In my mind, this is fitting since the civilians themselves voted and approved the terrorist group.

 

[Sihouette]

In your mind it is fitting. But is it fitting in Yahweh's mind?

That is the only relevant question facing Israelis..

 

[Andy]

of course Israel never provokes attacks, they are just harmless sitting there in peace before the rocket attacks....never ever doing anything wrong.

Another logical fallacy. You are raising the that it could not possibly be true that Israel was faultless in the attacks, and then implying that since they were at fault, then Hamas actions were supportable.

First, there is no government, or people group, anywhere in the world that is ever "faultless". Israel is no different. Nevertheless, arguing that any action is justified by the universal imperfection inherent to man, is a useless and illogical argument.

Second, for the sake of having a valid argument, unless you can provide evidence and substance to the claims, I'm not going to play the game "well they must have done something". Not to mention, if I were to come on here and vaguely say, well Israel attacked Gaza because "they must have done something", I would be laughed off the forum. If that lame argument doesn't work for me, it sure doesn't work for you either.

Third, regardless of what Israel *might* have done wrong, these videos prove Hamas *IS* doing wrong things.


In this video, a small group of Hamas terrorist are shooting mortars into Israel, while hiding like cowards by a school for Arab boys. Now what would people on this forum be saying if Israelis fired rockets into this group?

This Israeli plane no doubt relayed the location and actions of Hamas to the IDF. As I understand it, the IDF has warcraft in the air at all times, 24/7. They could have unleashed any number of weapons onto these pathetic terrorist, but then a half dozen here would be crying about the poor Arab boys in the school, right? Try and tell me I'm wrong.

Yet, you don't seemed to care that much that a mortar just a few months ago, landed in a home, killing someone's wife of 8 years, and the mother of three children. What do you say to those children? What do you say to the husband who lost the most loved person in his whole life?

Oh well Israel isn't perfect, and they were firing from a school for boys. Is that your answer Pocket? If not, then what is?

 

[Andy]

In your mind it is fitting. But is it fitting in Yahweh's mind?

That is the only relevant question facing Israelis..

First, not all Israelis are orthodox Jews.

Second, you can't logically argue from a position you don't completely believe in. Why? Because you do not completely believe the entire thing, then how do you think you know what all the religion teaches? You do not.

That's why when the correct defining of OT laws are written here, instead of admitting what they are saying, you simply claim "so convenience renders the Supreme Ten as subordinate to man's wishes".

No, they are not subordinate to man's wishes, those are the actual meanings of the laws.

Basically, you have twisted some to mean what you wish, and then when we revert to the actual meaning of the words, you claim we're changing things. That's because you didn't know what they meant to begin with.

Just like you don't understand the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man, not man made for the Sabbath. If your son fell down a well, would you say your violating the Sabbath by "working" to get him out? Of course not. That's plain stupid. If someone broke into your home and threatened your family, would you say you violated the Sabbath by defending your home and family? Of course not. Thats idiocy.

So when Hamas shoots mortars into Israel, killing people and blowing things up, what right do you have, who isn't even a believer, to claim you know they are violating the Sabbath by responding? Zero.

 

[Sihouette]

I'm just questioning how lower jewish law trumps Higher jewish law...or rather the very highest laws of Yahweh? Is it that the jews consider their own agendas as superior to that of Yahweh's?

The Ten Commandments Rule, the other are not equal but instead, subordinate. So there's this little snag.

If I was a jewish pilot ordered to drop bombs on the Sabbath that I knew would kill innocent women and children, I'd have sweaty palms and doubts over my niche in The Promised Land..no matter what other lower law supposedly "justified" those actions of Ultimate Disobedience.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Another logical fallacy. You are raising the that it could not possibly be true that Israel was faultless in the attacks, and then implying that since they were at fault, then Hamas actions were supportable.

First, there is no government, or people group, anywhere in the world that is ever "faultless". Israel is no different. Nevertheless, arguing that any action is justified by the universal imperfection inherent to man, is a useless and illogical argument.

Second, for the sake of having a valid argument, unless you can provide evidence and substance to the claims, I'm not going to play the game "well they must have done something". Not to mention, if I were to come on here and vaguely say, well Israel attacked Gaza because "they must have done something", I would be laughed off the forum. If that lame argument doesn't work for me, it sure doesn't work for you either.

Third, regardless of what Israel *might* have done wrong, these videos prove Hamas *IS* doing wrong things.


In this video, a small group of Hamas terrorist are shooting mortars into Israel, while hiding like cowards by a school for Arab boys. Now what would people on this forum be saying if Israelis fired rockets into this group?

This Israeli plane no doubt relayed the location and actions of Hamas to the IDF. As I understand it, the IDF has warcraft in the air at all times, 24/7. They could have unleashed any number of weapons onto these pathetic terrorist, but then a half dozen here would be crying about the poor Arab boys in the school, right? Try and tell me I'm wrong.

Yet, you don't seemed to care that much that a mortar just a few months ago, landed in a home, killing someone's wife of 8 years, and the mother of three children. What do you say to those children? What do you say to the husband who lost the most loved person in his whole life?

Oh well Israel isn't perfect, and they were firing from a school for boys. Is that your answer Pocket? If not, then what is?

I of course do not back Hamas or its actions, I am simply pointing out that saying X did this first is pointless and stupid at this point as everything on both sides is a reaction to actions on the other side. Israel reacts to Hamas, who reacts to Israels actions who Reacts to Hamas, and it goes on and on....there is never a X event that starts it at this point.

also since when did I not care about a morter hitting a school on any side? I hate the nation of Israel, but am not going sit and not care when kids are killed.

 

[Andy]

I'm just questioning how lower jewish law trumps Higher jewish law...or rather the very highest laws of Yahweh? Is it that the jews consider their own agendas as superior to that of Yahweh's?

The Ten Commandments Rule, the other are not equal but instead, subordinate. So there's this little snag.

If I was a jewish pilot ordered to drop bombs on the Sabbath that I knew would kill innocent women and children, I'd have sweaty palms and doubts over my niche in The Promised Land..no matter what other lower law supposedly "justified" those actions of Ultimate Disobedience.

First, let's define innocent. I'm not entirely sure that the Arabs in palestine are "innocent". In the mid-90s under Clinton.... (I'm just throwing that in because leftist always point out things that happened when Republicans are in power, even though they have nothing to do with it)....

In the mid-90s under Clinton, a palestinian Arab was accused of being an informant for Israel. Without a trial, without any Palestine Authority, the citizens, the people themselves took the man, without any evidence or proof, and butchered him. Not just butchered him, but paraded his body through the streets of Palestine, and hung him on a communications tower. There, they celebrated his brutal murder shouting chants and cursing Israel, saying death to the Jews. After this, they used a sword to slice through his neck, without completely cutting off his head. Then the children came and threw stones at his head until one finely knocked it off.

This sort of mass public lynching, and murdering of their own people is not new, and it has vastly increased in recent years.

This again is a man who was simply accused of helping Israel. There was no trial. There was no P.A. This was not a bunch of militia running around randomly killing people. This was the very Arab public, simply going nuts and slaughtering anyone. This is "innocent" to you?

And remember, it was the Arab palestinians who voted for Hamas to take power. That's not innocent in my mind. No one, who isn't asleep, doesn't know what Hamas stands for, what their goal is, and what methods they were willing to use to achieve them.

So when you talk about Israelis following Yahweh, in the strictest sense they are following it completely.