Abortion

Really? You can prove what is 'desirable'?

The constituition lays out what is desirable for this nation to protect. Is there some part of it that you have have problems understanding? If so, I will be happy to help.

Besides, you said it has no bearing on the matter :rolleyes:

Are you under the impression that only things that have bearing on the matter may be proven? Any number of things may be proven that have absolutely no relation to the issue at hand.

If you feel otherwise, feel free to prove it.

Demonstrate the first.

Again, are you unable to read the constitution? Do you believe there is no protection of human life within it?

The latter is dishonest. Braindeath (the cessation of the mind) is recognized as the end of a person's self.

Both brain death and the mind are physical. Each can be measured. Brain death is recognized as the end of a person's life, not of the self. At the point of brain death, at this point in medicine, there is no hope of recovery.

It is interesting how you attempt to compare perfectly healthy unborns with those who are so sick or injured that no reasonable hope of recovery exists in an effort to prove your point. If your argument were valid, would you really need to compare the healty to the sick or injured?

So rights come from the constitution?

Nope. Rights are protected by the constitution.

Funny how you fail to address the rest of the post :rolleyes:


I did. I pointed out that it was a logical fallacy. You beg the question and in a circular fashion, simply assume that your statement proves your premise. If you can prove your premise, by all means, have at it.
 
Werbung:
Wrong


S: (adj) conservative (having social or political views favoring conservatism)
S: (n) conservatism, conservativism (a political or theological orientation advocating the preservation of the best in society and opposing radical changes)

In other words, reactionism and preservation of the status quo

Better research deeper than a dictionary. Your ignorance is showing.


The Tories were conservatives

as were the lynch mobs

as was Hitler

as are the anti-gay marriage crowd

Sorry, hitler was a socialist. And there can be no gay marriage as marriage is an arrangement between men and women. An arrangement between women and women or men and men by definition can not be a marriage. In typical modern liberal fashion, you need to unilatarally redefine words in an effort to rationalize your wants.

I believe you fail to understand that modern conservativsm is, in reality, classical liberalism. The consitution is classical liberalism incarnate. Personally, I would be perfectly happy to live under a government that maintained a strict adherence to the letter of the constitution. Would you?
 
If allowing a thing to die is nowhere near the same as killing it, PR must have no objection to dumpster babies

Are you under the impression that if I put you in a situation in which you have no hope of survival, that I have not killed you. If I push you out of a plane at 10,000 feet,it is impact with the ground that kills you, not my hand. What do you believe a jury's reaction to such a defense might be?

Sorry you are unable to grasp the concept. If you need a simpler explanation, just ask. Maybe I can even find you a picture.
 
Just because a thing is genetically human doesn't mean it is a person.

A skin cell is genetically human but is not a human being. An unborn child, however, at any stage of development is a human being and therefore a person. Is this over your head? If it is, I will attempt to dumb it down a bit for you.

A child born with no head or a braindead man possesses no mind and is, therefore, no different from a rock aside from being squishy.

A child born with no head would probably not be alive. A child born with no brain (ancepaly) however, is a human being and is recognized as such by both the law and medicine. With regard to the braindead, again, you have a right to live, but no right to have extraordinary measures taken on your behalf if you are so sick or injured that no hope exists for your recovery.
 
Communism is counter the most fundamental liberal principles

but we know better than to expect honesty from you

I suggest that you learn the difference between classical liberalism and modern liberalism. Classical liberalism is what is known as conservativism today. Look at the constitution and you will see the tenets of classical liberalism and conservativism. Limited government being paramount. Modern liberalism is expressed in varying degrees by communism, socialism, fascism, and marxism with large intrusive government being the paramount.
 
Do those textbooks have hard evidence in them? If not, I invite you to quietly leave.

Yes they do. Now, if you believe you can prove that medical textbooks are based on opinion rather than hard medical fact, I welcome you to try and do it. Do you realize that you are making a laughing stock of yourself?
 
Is it not odd that one person reads something and conclude that it is virtually murder to freeze an embryo in that there "infinite" possible complications, and then when someone else reads the same thing, "...there is no sound evidence that embryo freezing is hazardous..."? Why do I get the impression that you wish to exaggerate the risks?

In your own cherry picked quote from the article it says clearly that some embryo's do not survive and some have their developmental potential reduced. The fact that some die is clear evidence that the freezing process is hazardous to the embryo. The fact that as many as 40% die means that from the embryo's point of view, freezing is very hazardous.

If one assumes that a dead embryo is no big deal, then one can say that the process is not hazardous as the dead embryo has no real meaning.

Yes, it is odd that you can read a report that states clearly that as many as 40% of embryos don't survive the freezing/thawing process and come to the conclusion that your original claim is still valid:

"In an embryo, for some reason (I cannot remember why), the cells do not break when frozen and the cells are viable when thawed. No harm, no foul. "

Clearly the cells are often damaged by the freezing / thawing process and as many as 40% do not survive. No harm/no foul hardly reflects the reality.
 
Originally Posted by dahermit
Please educate me. Show me how clearly death is not permanent.

I already did. Frozen embryos are not alive and yet, they may be brought back.

They are not alive according to past standards of biology to define what is or is not alive. All things were either "alive" or "dead". When biologists came up with the defining factors, there was no such thing as frozen embryos. Now that there is, and embryos can and have returned to a "live" state, it is more likely that the accepted definition was faulty than to assume that the dead can be brought back to life. Perhaps a more meaningful: "live, suspended biological function, dead" This is one of the short comings of language I referred to. Life and death by the way, is not an on-off condition. It is more like a light controlled by a rheostat, turn it down and the cells begin to decay, tissue breaks down, etc. The actual point of "death" being nebulous rather than determinate upon a single indicator. Also, the point at which the "dying" may be reversed is not clear. I could show citations for this, but why bother; I have, "...a poor understanding of what death is...", after all.
 
Yes they do. Now, if you believe you can prove that medical textbooks are based on opinion rather than hard medical fact, I welcome you to try and do it. Do you realize that you are making a laughing stock of yourself?

I dont see anyone but you laughing...

As for textbook propaganda:

Textbook Propaganda
by soj
Mon Mar 5th, 2007 at 08:19:12 PM EST




It is copyrighted so I'm just excerpting a few portions under the fair use rules.
Chapter 1 is entitled "We the People" which sounds good enough. The subheading says this:


Activity: Conduct research about incidents in which ordinary citizens made a difference in their communities, states, or nation. Then write a series of journal entries from the point of view of one of the people profiled at the Web site. As an extension, explain how the episodes illustrate American ideals, the roles of the citizen, and the qualities of good citizenship.
Ok, sounds pretty good! Let's see who is profiled on the website. Well one is Clifford W. Beers. Ever heard of him? Wikipedia is rather bare but luckily the Holt webpage links to this brief biography:


Clifford W. Beers has often been called the founder of the modern mental health movement. A man who had a mental disorder himself and received deplorable treatment, Beers devoted his life to advocacy on behalf of adults and children with mental illness in the United States and throughout the world. Through the telling of his experience and the subsequent creation of the National Mental Health Association, he revolutionized attitudes about and care for people with mental disorders.
Sounds good. Except right away you might notice that this biography is on a page of other people being honored by the "Points of Light" Volunteer Pathway for going the "extra mile". That's Pappy Bush's foundation right? Indeed it is.

Which isn't surprising when you understand that Clifford Beers' original name for his "mental health" organization was the "Connecticut Society for Mental Hygiene." If you ever see the word "hygiene" in the name of a pre-1940's organization, you can pretty much guess that's one of the codewords for the eugenics movement.

And what do you know? One of the first directors of Beers' organization was none other than Prescott Bush, George W.'s grandfather and the father of the "Points of Light" George Bush.

Prescott became a member of Skull and Bones in 1916, which just so happens to be the same organization which ran Beers' "mental health" society and was the same secret society Beers alluded to joining in his biography, which is lauded on the Holt webpage.

Speaking of his biography, essentially he was an upper class white male who went to Yale and then joined a Wall Street firm and then had a bad nervous breakdown. While he was in the mental institution he was shocked that rich men were treated the same as poor ones.

After two years of increasing paranoia and depression he almost "instantly" is cured and becomes inspired to improve the treatment of mentally ill people. From reading through it, it seems he genuinely suffered in these places when he was confined and genuinely wanted to improve how the mentally ill were treated. Unfortunately his belief in "hygiene":


Elsewhere is an account of how my plan broadened from reform to cure, from cure to prevention--how far, with the co-operation of some of this country's ablest specialists and most generous philanthropists, it has been realized, nationally and internationally, through the new form of social mechanism known as societies, committees, leagues or associations for mental hygiene.
That and because he was not rich, the donors to the cause and the first supporters were the upper crust at Yale who were avid supporters of eugenics.

Second on the list of "We the People" is David Keirsey, who invented probably the most widely used psychological profiling test called the Temperament Sorter. I'll skip the fact that the historical motivation for these kinds of tests were to prove "scientifically" that some races were superior to others.

The first edition of Keirsey's test was written in 1978 so let's just forget the history of psychometrics for a minute. Who is Keirsey the man? Well he is a man who used his "scientific test" to "prove" what a great personality George H.W. Bush has:


Besides being unusually provident little George was also unusually dependable about doing household chores and cleaning up after himself. When, for example, he went fishing and caught a fish he would clean it immediately, an unpleasant task even for an adult. Only then would he display his catch to family and friends.
Even as an adult Bush's manner is so kind, cheerful, and generous that, as one acquaintance in Kennebunkport, Maine (the Bush family's primary residence) put it, "if Bush were running for sainthood in this area he'd make it unopposed.

Well gosh, that's two people out of three in Chapter 1 of this textbook who are admirers of the Bush family! Who is number three then?

Well he is Matt Kelley, founder of the organization "MAVIN" which is the "nation's leading organization dedicated to multiracial youth". Hardly sounds like he belongs with the other two guys excepting for the fact he too he is a "Points of Light" recipient.

Kelly has openly criticized Jeb Bush's son but I wasn't the only one to wonder how odd it was to take grandpa's money while simultaneously deriding grandpa's biracial grandson. Well not for being biracial, just for his politics.

Ok so that's Chapter One. Chapter 2 is called "Foundations of Government".

The subtitles are:


The Monarchy Today
This site will give information about The Queen's role in modern society.
Cabinet Office
Read this site for information on government in England.

U.S. Policy on Cuba
Learn more about the U.S. policy toward Cuba.

The Government of Tibet in Exile
Visit this official website of the Government of Tibet in Exile to learn about the invasion and illegal annexation of Tibet by the Chinese in 1949. This site provides information on the status of Tibet, the government of Tibet and Tibetan culture.

People's Republic of China
A map of the People's Republic of China featuring information on the country.

So two links to England and how great it is, one on Cuba which hasn't been updated since 2001 and two on how terrible the Chinese are.

So these are the "types" of governments to study. Two Communist (bad) and one a constitional monarchy (good) and one former theocratic dictatorship (good) which was conquered by the (bad) Communist one.

You can also read about "First Ladies" as part of the "Foundations of Government", you know, since they were never members of it at any level in over 200 years.

Chapter 3 is entitled "The U.S. Constitution". The website described the branches of government including a list of "researcher resources", which link to some Supreme Court cases like McCulloch v. Maryland:


The Court invoked the Elastic Clause in the Constitution, which allowed the Federal government to pass laws not expressly provided for in the Constitution's list of express powers as long as those laws are in useful furtherance of the express powers.
Jolly. You might remember this case as being concerned with defending the Second Bank of the United States, which was destroyed by Andrew Jackson and derided as the "Devil's Bank". Worth its own diary one day. (Alexander Hamilton, the founder and supporter of the first two U.S. Banks is given his own link in Chapter 19 "Managing Money").

Chapter 4 is called "Rights and Responsibilities". The first subheading is "First Amendment Freedoms".

That goes to a website where flag burning is discussed an a classroom exercise in debating free speech. Here's what that webpage says under "enrichment":


Many people, including such leaders as then-President George Bush, were outraged by the Supreme Court's decision. "Flag-burning is wrong, dead wrong, and the flag of the United States is very, very special," said Bush. Congress then passed a law making flag burning illegal. The Supreme Court struck down the Flag Protection Act of 1989 in 1990, by a 5-4 vote.
One vote shy kiddos!

Next it says this:


Flag-burning is a form of speech that is protected by the First Amendment -- for the time being. As reported in the First Amendment Center's State of the First Amendment 2000 a telephone survey of 1,015 adults conducted in April 2000, the country remains split on the issue of a flag-burning amendment, but for the first time a majority (51%) opposes it.
That particular website is run by the "Freedom Forum" which describes itself as a "non-partisan" organization. I note however it was founded by Allen "Al" Neuharth, who among other things was the creator of USA Today. Although he's "retired" from the newspaper business, he still pens the occasional column.

Here's one on Fidel Castro:


This personal insight: In 1988, Castro was one of 32 heads of state on six continents with whom I met during a USA TODAY international news-gathering and promotional tour called the JetCapade.
Thoroughly briefed in advance, Castro keyed our 10 p.m. meeting with this question:


•"Mr. Neuharth, I understand your new newspaper USA TODAY is losing a lot of money. How do you pay the bills?"

•My honest but innocent reply: "Our Gannett Company has more than 80 very profitable newspapers and they help out financially."

•Castro: "Aha! Your company and my country are both socialistic!"

I paused, then smiled, said "touché" and lifted the glass of Cuban rum he had given me.
If I had argued with him, our meeting probably would have ended promptly. Instead, he talked with several of my associates and me until 3:55 a.m.
 
They are not alive according to past standards of biology to define what is or is not alive.

They are not alive according to present standards of biology either. If you believe I am wrong, I encourage you to provide some credible information that says I am.

All things were either "alive" or "dead". When biologists came up with the defining factors, there was no such thing as frozen embryos. Now that there is, and embryos can and have returned to a "live" state, it is more likely that the accepted definition was faulty than to assume that the dead can be brought back to life.

Frozen embryos are not anything new. We have been freezing human embryos since 1970. That is approaching 40 years now. Scientists were freezing amphibian embryos and reviving them for another 25 years before that. If a new definition were needed, I am sure that it would be in use by now.
 
I dont see anyone but you laughing...

As for textbook propaganda:

Textbook Propaganda
by soj
Mon Mar 5th, 2007 at 08:19:12 PM EST

It is copyrighted so I'm just excerpting a few portions under the fair use rules.
Chapter 1 is entitled "We the People" which sounds good enough. The subheading says this:

Don't tell me that you are going to try to compare the process of writing social studies books with medical school textbooks. That is genuinely laughable. Feel free to provide some evidence that medical students are being taught opinion as opposed to hard medical science in courses such as embryology, fetology, developmental biology, and OB/gyn.
 
Don't tell me that you are going to try to compare the process of writing social studies books with medical school textbooks. That is genuinely laughable. Feel free to provide some evidence that medical students are being taught opinion as opposed to hard medical science in courses such as embryology, fetology, developmental biology, and OB/gyn.

But both social studies and medical textbooks are used to funnel conservative propaganda into inoccent young minds, so they are both political school books, and are no different.
 
But both social studies and medical textbooks are used to funnel conservative propaganda into inoccent young minds, so they are both political school books, and are no different.

If that is true, then you should have no problem at all providing some credible medical texts written by liberals that state explicitly that unborns are something other than human beings.

We both know that no such textbooks exist and we also know that conservatives don't hold the monopoly on either writing medical texts or printing them. The fact is that even the most liberal, pro choice scientists freely acknolwedge that unborns at any stage of development are living human beings. They argue that it is OK to kill them (an argument they lose every time) but they aren't dense enough to try to deny what they are. Denial doesn't constitute a rational argument.

But hey, if you actually believe that I am only providing "conservative" medical fact, by all means, bring forward some credible liberal medical texts for my reading pleasure. Or are you perhaps saying that liberals aren't bright enough to write a medical text and that is the reason that there are none?
 
Werbung:
If that is true, then you should have no problem at all providing some credible medical texts written by liberals that state explicitly that unborns are something other than human beings.

We both know that no such textbooks exist and we also know that conservatives don't hold the monopoly on either writing medical texts or printing them. The fact is that even the most liberal, pro choice scientists freely acknolwedge that unborns at any stage of development are living human beings. They argue that it is OK to kill them (an argument they lose every time) but they aren't dense enough to try to deny what they are. Denial doesn't constitute a rational argument.

But hey, if you actually believe that I am only providing "conservative" medical fact, by all means, bring forward some credible liberal medical texts for my reading pleasure. Or are you perhaps saying that liberals aren't bright enough to write a medical text and that is the reason that there are none?

Fetuses are humans, but they are not sentient, so, wether the constitution says so or not, the mother's rights should override the fetuse's rights.
 
Back
Top