Abortion

[samsara15]

Interesting angle you're going for here.... I will keep this quote "on file" and use it every time you fail to convince someone of your point of view.

Should be interesting.

I welcome that, General.

A minor question. How many people have you ever seen persuaded on anything on this board, or any other board? I can recall few such events. A handful, if that many. I have seen people sometimes reach some temporary rapport on their ideological or theological disagreements, but even those are rare events.

So what do we accomplish on these boards? We air our opinions, and see how they fly. We communicate, somewhat more openly and honestly than we do in our usual public discourse with other people, even if still limited somewhat by the rules of the forums. We get an opportunity to talk more frankly than usual to people we disagree with in every way, and to see who our allies, are and what their opinions are on subjects of interest to us.

 

[samsara15]

Well, let's look at that shall we? Is it 'responsible' or is it irresponsible for a woman to allow herself to be impregnated when she has no intention of having a child? Is it wise, or is it stupid, to engage in intercourse and not use all available means of contraception when you don't intend to have a child? Is it mature or is it childish to refuse to take resposibility for ensuring that you take all appropriate measures to protect yourself and your partner when there is no doubt by anyone that has attended an 8th grade "Health" class what happens when you F*CK? Is it good or is it evil to MURDER the most innocent human being simply because you're too stupid, irresponsible, and childish to think with the big head instead of the little one?

Oh, and as for your "That's exactly.....", that's not exactly much of a response, would you care to try again?

It's all the woman's responsibility? Oh come on.

I guess you were never young, and always behaved responsibly.

A conception is not a child. Not until quickening, if then.

Why do women have abortions? Do you have any ideas, other than your seemingly deep-seated misogyny, as to why they do?

What is this nonsense about 'innocence'? Is it wrong to be an adult? Is sex evil? Your attitudes seem to be medieval.

 

[Bob the Builder]

It's all the woman's responsibility? Oh come on.

It's HER body, SHE'S the one who will, or will not become pregnant based on HER actions.

I guess you were never young, and always behaved responsibly.

Yes I was, and yes I did, but that's because my parents and grandparents ensured I was fully aware of the concept of responsibility by the time I got out of Elementary School.

A conception is not a child. Not until quickening, if then.

It's a child the moment the fertilized egg attaches itself to the uterine wall and continues to grow. Is a corn plant any less corn when it has just sprouted than when it's 6' tall? Is it corn when it's 2" tall, 6" tall, 2' tall, 4' tall? When does it become "corn"? It's a living corn plant the moment it is germinated, and a human being is a human being the moment the egg is fertilized and it begins to grow.

Equivocating about when a child "officially" becomes a child is the same convoluted logic that the Nazi's used as justification for murdering the Jews, but then again given the fact that the Demoncrap Party platform is almost identical to the Nazi Party platform I'm not surprised that you'd take that position.

Why do women have abortions? Do you have any ideas, other than your seemingly deep-seated misogyny, as to why they do?

To avoid the responsibility for their actions. Oh, and you can take your "misogyny", turn it sideways and shove it up your a$$, SIDEWAYS and dry! Personal responsibility is personal responsibility and gender has nothing to do with it.

What is this nonsense about 'innocence'? Is it wrong to be an adult? Is sex evil? Your attitudes seem to be medieval.

Again your arguments resemble those of the Nazis. You advocate killing someone who has not been charged, tried, convicted or sentenced of any crime! They have received no "due process of the law", they have been given no opportunity to defend themselves, they have not been represented by suitable council, they have not had the charges against them read, they have not been afforded the opportunity to face the witnesses against them, nor to have their case heard before an impartial jury of their peers, nor have they been given the opportunity of appeal.

At least when conservatives call for someone to die, it's AFTER they've actually committed a crime, and received ALL of their Constitutional protections, been convicted in a court of law, received all of their appeals, and THEN still sentenced to die, in a court of law, by a Judge and with the agreement and consent of an impartial jury of their peers.

I suppose some on the left believe that actually abiding by the Constitution is a bit medieval, but that's the difference between us. You advocate murdering the most innocent among us and decry the execution of the most heinous among us. We advocate the execution of the most heinous among us and the protection of the most innocent.

 

[Pandora]

It's HER body, SHE'S the one who will, or will not become pregnant based on HER actions.

I agree with this except there are some cases where this can not apply Bob.

A woman or young girl has no control over being raped.

So it is not always totally up to her based on her actions.

 

[Bob the Builder]

I agree with this except there are some cases where this can not apply Bob.

A woman or young girl has no control over being raped.

So it is not always totally up to her based on her actions.

Obviously we're not talking about rape cases Pandora, but then again in the case of a rape, when the woman goes to the hospital for treatment the physician can give her RU-486, or in cases where RU-486 is not available a D&C can be performed, and in either case pregnancy does not occur, so in reality it's a non-issue.

 

[Pandora]

Obviously we're not talking about rape cases Pandora, but then again in the case of a rape, when the woman goes to the hospital for treatment the physician can give her RU-486, or in cases where RU-486 is not available a D&C can be performed, and in either case pregnancy does not occur, so in reality it's a non-issue.

usually yes, I did figured you were not talking about rape but I had two cent laying around and wanted to spend it

 

[Bob the Builder]

usually yes, I did figured you were not talking about rape but I had two cent laying around and wanted to spend it

AH! I thought it was a pre-emptive "what about rape" question to beat the Obliviots to the punch.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

It doesn't matter a whit whether you agree or not. We might argue whether the sun is made primarily of hydrogen or oxygen. If you argue that it is primarily oxygen, you are wrong whether you ever agree with the facts or not. The roots of why you support abortion are completely irrelavent if they do not represent the facts. The hard truth is that the pro choice side of the argument can not rationally support its position. Your arguments must, by their nature be composed of either logical fallacy, falsehood, or a misunderstanding of the facts.

I think what I like most about our pale friend is that he isn't so broadminded that he can't see things from his own perspective. He is correct and everyone else is wrong no matter what.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

And again, your position is based on a logical fallacy. You beg the question and simply assume that the child is a potential human in order to satisfy the position you want to have rather than the position you actually have which is that you favor allowing one human being to kill another human being without judical review and without legal consequence for any or no reason.

Would it make things better for you if everyone who supports women being allowed to own their bodies was to agree with you in the bolded part of the paragraph above?

What if they agree that women are more important that fetuses. Thus the woman gets to decide the fate of the fetus inside her body. Would that kind of straight forward version of honesty make you feel better?

I agree with you that abortion is not a particularly good idea, I don't want to have one, but I disagree with you in that I don't feel that I have the right to tell all the other women of the world how they have to behave--no matter how strongly I feel about the subject. You have an adamantine position that brooks no examination, you take a god-like position announcing to the whole world that PALE is correct and everyone had best toe the line. My ego isn't that big. Yours apparently is.

 

[samsara15]

It's HER body, SHE'S the one who will, or will not become pregnant based on HER actions.

Yes I was, and yes I did, but that's because my parents and grandparents ensured I was fully aware of the concept of responsibility by the time I got out of Elementary School.



It's a child the moment the fertilized egg attaches itself to the uterine wall and continues to grow. Is a corn plant any less corn when it has just sprouted than when it's 6' tall? Is it corn when it's 2" tall, 6" tall, 2' tall, 4' tall? When does it become "corn"? It's a living corn plant the moment it is germinated, and a human being is a human being the moment the egg is fertilized and it begins to grow.

Equivocating about when a child "officially" becomes a child is the same convoluted logic that the Nazi's used as justification for murdering the Jews, but then again given the fact that the Demoncrap Party platform is almost identical to the Nazi Party platform I'm not surprised that you'd take that position.



To avoid the responsibility for their actions. Oh, and you can take your "misogyny", turn it sideways and shove it up your a$$, SIDEWAYS and dry! Personal responsibility is personal responsibility and gender has nothing to do with it.



Again your arguments resemble those of the Nazis. You advocate killing someone who has not been charged, tried, convicted or sentenced of any crime! They have received no "due process of the law", they have been given no opportunity to defend themselves, they have not been represented by suitable council, they have not had the charges against them read, they have not been afforded the opportunity to face the witnesses against them, nor to have their case heard before an impartial jury of their peers, nor have they been given the opportunity of appeal.

At least when conservatives call for someone to die, it's AFTER they've actually committed a crime, and received ALL of their Constitutional protections, been convicted in a court of law, received all of their appeals, and THEN still sentenced to die, in a court of law, by a Judge and with the agreement and consent of an impartial jury of their peers.

I suppose some on the left believe that actually abiding by the Constitution is a bit medieval, but that's the difference between us. You advocate murdering the most innocent among us and decry the execution of the most heinous among us. We advocate the execution of the most heinous among us and the protection of the most innocent.

You are completely the old fashioned sexist male, aren't you? An embryo is not yet a someone.

 

[GenSeneca]

A minor question. How many people have you ever seen persuaded on anything on this board, or any other board?

As I've stated many times, I'm not here to convince anyone of anything... If I have, great but I'll probably never know about it, if not: "Happiness is that state of consciousness which proceeds from the achievement of one's values. " -- Ayn Rand

My purpose here is to offer my viewpoints on topics and explain my justification and the process by which I arrived at my conclusions. Additionally, I do enjoy hearing the viewpoints of others and their explanation as to how they arrived at their conclusions... While its usually humorous, it also gives me an opportunity to point out errors in logic and either validate or further question my own conclusions.

 

[Bob the Builder]

Would it make things better for you if everyone who supports women being allowed to own their bodies was to agree with you in the bolded part of the paragraph above?

What if they agree that women are more important that fetuses. Thus the woman gets to decide the fate of the fetus inside her body. Would that kind of straight forward version of honesty make you feel better?

No. Saying that abortion is OK is merely the first step towards saying that ANY murder is OK provided enough people get together and buy into the flawed logic behind it. It's no different than the lynchings that happened in the Old West where a SUSPECTED horse thief was hanged on the spot without the benefit of charges or trial. It's no different than the Mayor of San Francisco ordering looters to be shot on sight following the earthquake of 1906. Where was the "Due Process" then? Murder is murder regardless of how you try to justify it, or how many people think it's a "good idea".

I agree with you that abortion is not a particularly good idea, I don't want to have one, but I disagree with you in that I don't feel that I have the right to tell all the other women of the world how they have to behave--no matter how strongly I feel about the subject. You have an adamantine position that brooks no examination, you take a god-like position announcing to the whole world that PALE is correct and everyone had best toe the line. My ego isn't that big. Yours apparently is.

You have totally misread me from day one. I have no problem with examination of facts, but when one starts in with emotion driven tripe, I shut it down right then and there because at that point it's useless to continue. If anyone can present a logical, cogent reason to justify abortion I'm all ears, but I've heard all of them ever since the Supreme Court issued their bastardized ruling (privacy my A$$!!) and I haven't heard a cogent one yet.

As to your assertion that I've declared PALE correct, again you misread. Pale and I may agree on this issue, but he is responsible for his position and I'm responsible for mine.

One last thing, don't underestimate your ego, it's frickin' HUGE!

 

[GenSeneca]

You have an adamantine position that brooks no examination, you take a god-like position announcing to the whole world that PALE is correct and everyone had best toe the line. My ego isn't that big. Yours apparently is.

I have never seen you chide those who share your positions in such a manner as you have here with Palerider. Anthropogenic Global Warming, the Welfare State, Progressive taxation and a slew of other issues discussed on these boards are offered as "adamantine" positions "that brooks no examination" by those who espouse and support them. They even pride themselves in their ability to force their wills on others by virtue of having a larger gang than those who oppose them, yet you remain silent to the size of their egos.

 

[Bob the Builder]

You are completely the old fashioned sexist male, aren't you? An embryo is not yet a someone.

Samsara, you just LOST! You have failed to present a cogent counter-argument to mine instead relying solely on a BS retort. At least when I get "mean and nasty" I present facts or at least a cogent argument in the mix, you couldn't even manage that.

Oh, and BTW, what's wrong with being an "old fashioned sexist male"??? At least in the old days men treated women with respect, and held them up on a pedestal to be revered for their sacrifices and contributions. Today all of the metrosexual modern males want their women down in the mud with them. Treating a woman as the "equal" of a man is a DEMOTION for the woman!

And no, it's not a "embryo", it's not a "potential person", it's a HUMAN BEING.

 

[palerider]

Hey Pale,

How do you feel about responses that are one long ad hominem wrapped in an emotional appeal and sprinkled with an appeal to authority?

They are the carefully crafted statements of someone who has no actual defense of their position because none of the facts concerning the core of the issue support an argument that defends their position.

It is all they have and they cling to it as if it were some sort of talisman without regard to the fact that it is all irrational bloviation.