Abortion

Nonsense. You are defining the verb 'to be', which is, to exist in reality. What I refer to as a 'human being', and which is relevant to this argument, is the essence of a human being. The difference becomes obvious in view of the platonic ideas of forms and substance.

The term human being is nothing more and nothing less than the mundane term we use to describe any man, woman, or child of the species homo sapiens sapiens. Living or dead.

A living human person has both the form and substance of a human being. A dead person, on the other hand, merely has its substance. Clearly, any topic concerning an inalienable right to live refers to a human being in both form and substance.

So are you saying that dead people have no form? I was just at a funeral last week and when I looked in the coffin, I didn't see a puddle of goo. The form of a human being was in there because a human being was in there. Charlie didn't turn into something else when he died. In fact, if you look up the word form, one of the definitions is "a body esp. that of a human being". Perhaps you mean that the dead lack the etherial "substance" that we call life. In any case, they most certainly have form.

By the way, person is a legal term. If you refer to Black's Legal Dictionary. The very legal dictionary you will find in use at the Supreme Court, you will find that the legal term person is defined as "a human being".

And of course an inalenable right to live applies to the living since the dead have no life to protect. That whole line of (thought?) belongs entirely to dawkins.

I'm sure your legal dictionary does not expound on the difference, which makes your mistake understandable.

Again, when you find that you must redefine, or modify definitions, the problem is with your argument, not the definitions of words.
 
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The term human being is nothing more and nothing less than the mundane term we use to describe any man, woman, or child of the species homo sapiens sapiens. Living or dead.

In that case, you are simply wrong. There is no law nor jurisprudence that refers to a cadaver in the context of inalienable rights. Since your legal dictionary insists on the interchangeability of a person and a human being, a cadaver is not a human being.

Capice?

So are you saying that dead people have no form? I was just at a funeral last week and when I looked in the coffin, I didn't see a puddle of goo. The form of a human being was in there because a human being was in there. Charlie didn't turn into something else when he died. In fact, if you look up the word form, one of the definitions is "a body esp. that of a human being". Perhaps you mean that the dead lack the etherial "substance" that we call life. In any case, they most certainly have form.

Good grief! Have you never encountered plato's theory of forms????

Form is the response to the query -- what is that? One's reply -- it is (the form of) a horse, chair, human being, etc. That in the numerous particular entities, there exists a singular and universal form to it. Plato goes further in asserting that particular objects are merely particular manifestations at a particular circumstance of a universal form. By definition, the material constitution of an object is particular.

So, when one speaks of an inalienable right to live within a human being, one speaks of a human being in FORM AND SUBSTANCE, not of substance alone.

By the way, person is a legal term. If you refer to Black's Legal Dictionary. The very legal dictionary you will find in use at the Supreme Court, you will find that the legal term person is defined as "a human being".

And your logic strays to nonsense simply because your legal dictionary failed to mention whether living or dead???

Brilliant! You have taken legal positivism to a new level of absurdity.

And of course an inalenable right to live applies to the living since the dead have no life to protect. That whole line of (thought?) belongs entirely to dawkins.

Hence a cadaver is NOT a human being. It is merely an object, the disposition of which is left to the discretion of the immediate kin. Is there anything particularly difficult to understand in that logic, hmmm?

Again, when you find that you must redefine, or modify definitions, the problem is with your argument, not the definitions of words.

One needs to point out the defective way you employ definitions -- which, stretched to its absurd limit -- results in a contradiction.

An inalienable right is that which is INDEPENDENT OF POSITIVE LAW. Neither the state, nor its laws, conferred said right to the human being. Neither the state, nor its laws can deny these rights.

The logic is both simple and inescapable -- the right to live of a convict deserves as much protection from the state as the right to live of a fetus. That your argument upholds one and not the other clearly demonstrates a fundamental defect in logic.
 
In that case, you are simply wrong. There is no law nor jurisprudence that refers to a cadaver in the context of inalienable rights. Since your legal dictionary insists on the interchangeability of a person and a human being, a cadaver is not a human being.

I am afraid that you are confused. The interchangability is only that human being and person are one in the same. I don't quite get the whole point of bringing the dead into the discussion unless it an intentional red herring. The dead certainly have nothing to do with abortion and the facts as they apply to abortion.


I understand red herrings and I understand jumping in an irrelavent bit of minutia and attempting to build a rational case from it. Find yourself a judge and ask him or her how much relavence arguments over the status of the dead has in a discussion on abortion. Ask how far they would allow a legal team to follow such a line of thought before they brought it to an abrupt end.

Good grief! Have you never encountered plato's theory of forms????

Yes, but who would have thought that anyone would attempt to use such an outmoded idea in a discussion on abortion. Further, you didn't capatilize the word form, thus identifying your use of it as in Plato's theory which, by the way, he admitted was frought with problems.

Form is the response to the query -- what is that? One's reply -- it is (the form of) a horse, chair, human being, etc. That in the numerous particular entities, there exists a singular and universal form to it. Plato goes further in asserting that particular objects are merely particular manifestations at a particular circumstance of a universal form. By definition, the material constitution of an object is particular.

The problem with this example is that the student was pointing to a model of a horse, chair, etc., and Plato expounded on the Forms if my memory serves me. In the case of the dead, it is not a model or image, but an actual dead person. Further, I am not sure that Plato ever attempted to apply his theory to human beings. If I remember, his theory was concerned with objects and the forms they represented. A line in the dirt, for example, represented the Form of a perfectly straight line even though it wasn't itself a straight line. A marble represented the Form of a perfect sphere even though it wasn't a perfect sphere. A sculpture of an athlete represented the Form of a human being even though it wasn't actually a human being.

The dead, however, don't represent the Form of a human being as that is what they actually are.

So, when one speaks of an inalienable right to live within a human being, one speaks of a human being in FORM AND SUBSTANCE, not of substance alone.

Again, I recommend you ask a judge about that.

An inalienable right is that which is INDEPENDENT OF POSITIVE LAW. Neither the state, nor its laws, conferred said right to the human being. Neither the state, nor its laws can deny these rights.

The logic is both simple and inescapable -- the right to live of a convict deserves as much protection from the state as the right to live of a fetus. That your argument upholds one and not the other clearly demonstrates a fundamental defect in logic.

Still stinging from your loss of the capital punishment argument huh? I understand. I stung for a while when I lost the pro choice argument way back when. Injecting capital punishment into this argument is yet another red herring and I am not going to follow that one either.
 
I am afraid that you are confused. The interchangability is only that human being and person are one in the same. I don't quite get the whole point of bringing the dead into the discussion unless it an intentional red herring. The dead certainly have nothing to do with abortion and the facts as they apply to abortion.

When you admit that a cadaver is a human being, hence a person by transitivity, you are making a monumentally naive blunder. It isn't your first, btw.

I understand red herrings and I understand jumping in an irrelavent bit of minutia and attempting to build a rational case from it. Find yourself a judge and ask him or her how much relavence arguments over the status of the dead has in a discussion on abortion. Ask how far they would allow a legal team to follow such a line of thought before they brought it to an abrupt end.

When one asserts that a cadaver is a human being, it is not very far from the conclusion that a cadaver is a person (thanks to your legal dictionary).

It wouldn't be a problem really, for educated folks. But if your education is confined to a perusal of a legal dictionary, then a serious problem arises indeed.

Yes, but who would have thought that anyone would attempt to use such an outmoded idea in a discussion on abortion.

What plato did was to bisect the particular from the universal -- which is what the nature of law is -- the application of a single principle among like things.

Even now, you need someone to point out the implications of the naive propositions you are making.

Further, you didn't capatilize the word form, thus identifying your use of it as in Plato's theory which, by the way, he admitted was frought with problems.

I said '...the platonic idea of form and substance...'

No point in wiggling yourself out from a stupid blunder.

The problem with this example is that the student was pointing to a model of a horse, chair, etc., and Plato expounded on the Forms if my memory serves me. In the case of the dead, it is not a model or image, but an actual dead person. Further, I am not sure that Plato ever attempted to apply his theory to human beings. If I remember, his theory was concerned with objects and the forms they represented. A line in the dirt, for example, represented the Form of a perfectly straight line even though it wasn't itself a straight line. A marble represented the Form of a perfect sphere even though it wasn't a perfect sphere. A sculpture of an athlete represented the Form of a human being even though it wasn't actually a human being.

Good god that bonehead of yours is dense!

The lesson was about the nature of existence. True existence resides in the realm of forms (ideas). That is why law applies to all -- that it does not refer to particular human beings, but to a universal concept of what a human being ought to be.

So, the equality of all people is not really a literal equality. It is an equality in the application of the law.

Is the logic clear to you now?

The dead, however, don't represent the Form of a human being as that is what they actually are.

And that is why your understanding of this debate is confined to an entry in a legal dictionary.

I'm afraid no one can help you in that regard.

Again, I recommend you ask a judge about that.

Maybe you should ask the judge. It would give you a better understanding of the nature of the law. It is infinitely more enlightening than parroting the letter of the law.

Still stinging from your loss of the capital punishment argument huh? I understand. I stung for a while when I lost the pro choice argument way back when. Injecting capital punishment into this argument is yet another red herring and I am not going to follow that one either.

Even a ***** like dawkinsrocks sees the inconsistency of your arguments here with your ideas on capital punishment.

What else is there to say?
 
I know I excite you but quite frankly the idea of you getting an erection over me is somewhat distasteful.

Please refrain from sharing your sexual fantasies with this board
 
I know I excite you but quite frankly the idea of you getting an erection over me is somewhat distasteful.

On the contrary, your posts do not even merit half of my attention. A few rhetorical remarks are sufficient to expose your ignorance.

Please refrain from sharing your sexual fantasies with this board

Not at all. Replying to your nonsense doesn't keep me from my wife, if that is what you are suggesting. And it is not a matter of personal opinion when I say that I have a hot wife.
 
I know I excite you but quite frankly the idea of you getting an erection over me is somewhat distasteful.

Please refrain from sharing your sexual fantasies with this board

I bet (jokes?) like that go over big out on the playground. Unfortunately, you are among adults here and puerile sexual references of that sort only serve to bring your immaturity into sharp relief.

Grow up or find yourself a kiddie politik site. In truth, such a site may help you hone your skills. You are certainly in over your head here.
 
Help, I am being ganged-up on by a bunch of pro-lifers trying to outdo each other in their display of piety.

As millions of people have been killed by people trying to out-piety each other I am seriously worried
 
Help, I am being ganged-up on by a bunch of pro-lifers trying to outdo each other in their display of piety.

As millions of people have been killed by people trying to out-piety each other I am seriously worried

I was wondering when you would decide to tuck tail and run. BS is finite, after all.
 
You see

You have made yet another invalid 'deduction'.

I suppose this distortion of reason is essential to the life of the average christian pro-deather
 
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Help, I am being ganged-up on by a bunch of pro-lifers trying to outdo each other in their display of piety.

As millions of people have been killed by people trying to out-piety each other I am seriously worried

Oh, you mean like the MILLIONS of innocent children that you libs murder EVERY YEAR?
 
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