Abortion

[palerider]

That's about where I seem to have ended up too.

You have conceeded that it is murder but support it anyway.

 

[Coyote]

You have conceeded that it is murder but support it anyway.

Murder is against the law. I support choice.

 

[palerider]

Murder is against the law. I support choice.

So when a slave owner beat a slave to death, it wasn't murder because the law said it wasn't?

 

[USMC the Almighty]

I support choice.

Not to get off topic, but do you also support choice in whether or not people should have to pay into Social Security or Medicare? Or does this choice only extend to abortion?

 

[Coyote]

Not to get off topic, but do you also support choice in whether or not people should have to pay into Social Security or Medicare? Or does this choice only extend to abortion?

No. Nor do I support choice about whether people should be able to torture animals, abuse their children, or drive drunk.

They have a choice when it comes to decisions regarding their body and health. There is a big difference.

 

[top gun]

Smarter? Then we enslaved them because of their color. Today we deny them the right to live based on their age. Where do you get "smarter" out of that?

Today... well really for decades now... we recognize a woman's right to maintain control over her own body and anything therein. We no longer require women to be submissive to the control of a man, or the government for that matter, in regard to her own body or anything contained therein.

The draconian days of a woman having to use a rusty coat hanger on herself or throw herself down a flight of stairs or go to a back alley butcher shop are gone.

I know how desperately you long for those days to return and I'm sorry to keep having to be the bearer of bad news... but those "good old days" are gone... gone forever.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

They have a choice when it comes to decisions regarding their body and health. There is a big difference.

So what if I feel that I can take better care of my body and health if I take the money that I would be forced to pay into Medicare and Medicaid, and pay for doctors that I want on my own? Would you support this choice?

 

[vyo476]

I'd have to say...palerider has me convinced. I was on the fence with this issue when I first came here but I'm pretty much set now.

Top gun, your argument is a mess. I'm all for women having equal rights, but a necessary part of the word equal is that we evaluate every case without thought to gender bias. Once a fetus has been created it isn't just the woman's body anymore - the unborn baby is a person too, and no one's put forth a convincing argument otherwise. By allowing all manner of abortions to continue unfettered we'd just be setting up the next group of discriminated people - unborn children.

I'm not saying all abortion should be summarily banned. There certainly are some scenarios where it would be a necessity.

 

[top gun]

So what if I feel that I can take better care of my body and health if I take the money that I would be forced to pay into Medicare and Medicaid, and pay for doctors that I want on my own? Would you support this choice?

I know you're just throwing that out there as a hypothetical but I'm sure you also see the difference.

Things like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are funds everyone pays into they're whole working life. That money is invested by the government. Then when people become elderly and retire they draw back out of that fund. If everyone doesn't have to pay in these are the scenarios.

1) People of means can afford the risk because they have the funds to do so. They will be more likely to pull out bankrupting the system even quicker for those who can't risk investing their retirement money on their own. By allowing anyone to pull out what you are actually doing is just starting the process of doing away with these retirement safety nets that most people need altogether.

2) And if it were to happen that you spend, lose, or invest badly on your own outside of the government system you'll still become too old to work but yet still be alive. In that case you fall back onto General Relief (Welfare) because The United States of America isn't going to just have old broke senior citizens laying all over it's streets. So then all of the people still working are directly paying for the others bad planning and mis-investing.

So in a nut shell what really happens is what you do in this scenario really affects everyone else. It is not really a choice that affects only you.

On the pro-choice issue it is a woman and her own conscience making a decision about her own body and everything therein. It's about the fact that forcing a woman to bare a child is wrong if she truly does not wish to do so. It's about who's choice should it be anyway... the women, her family and her doctor... or the government.

You see in this case the "choice" decision does not affect the masses. It is truly on a much more individual level.

 

[palerider]

Today... well really for decades now... we recognize a woman's right to maintain control over her own body and anything therein. We no longer require women to be submissive to the control of a man, or the government for that matter, in regard to her own body or anything contained therein.

So you are arguing that she owns the child and can therefore do with it as she wishes?

The draconian days of a woman having to use a rusty coat hanger on herself or throw herself down a flight of stairs or go to a back alley butcher shop are gone.

The draconian days were a myth. One more example of you not knowing what you are talking about but maintaining your position out of pure faith. The man who invented the coathanger myth has admitted that it was pure BS but they needed a "visual" that would stick with people. Clearly he was a marketing genius.

99% of abortions were done by doctors in their offices after hours. The very doctors who closed their practices and opened abortion clinics within weeks of the roe decision. And exactly how stupid do you think women are? If you were going to do surgury of that sort on yourself, would you grab a rusty coat hanger? How many rusty coathangers do you have in your closet right now? Have you ever even seen a rusty coat hanger?

 

[palerider]

I'd have to say...palerider has me convinced. I was on the fence with this issue when I first came here but I'm pretty much set now.

Top gun, your argument is a mess. I'm all for women having equal rights, but a necessary part of the word equal is that we evaluate every case without thought to gender bias. Once a fetus has been created it isn't just the woman's body anymore - the unborn baby is a person too, and no one's put forth a convincing argument otherwise. By allowing all manner of abortions to continue unfettered we'd just be setting up the next group of discriminated people - unborn children.

I'm not saying all abortion should be summarily banned. There certainly are some scenarios where it would be a necessity.

Thank you. You have made liars of pro choicers who claim that these discussions never influence anyone in an attempt to shut them down.

I also don't think abortion should be completely banned any more than I think self defense should be stricken from the books as a valid reason to kill. Abortion on demand, however, is not now, and has never been what the majority of people want. Vast majorities have held that abortion should be avialiable in certain circumstances which mostly include situations where the mother's life or long term health are in danger.

 

[palerider]

Things like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are funds everyone pays into they're whole working life. That money is invested by the government. Then when people become elderly and retire they draw back out of that fund. If everyone doesn't have to pay in these are the scenarios.

Another example of you not knowing what you are talking about. That money goes into the general fund and is spent, not invested.

So in a nut shell what really happens is what you do in this scenario really affects everyone else. It is not really a choice that affects only you.

And abortion is not a choice that affects only the woman. There is another human being involved who is killed. What you are saying is that you are ok with abortion because you are no longer in danger of being aborted. Your position is hypocritical through and through. Like vyo says, your argument is a mess.

 

[top gun]

palerider;17739]Another example of you not knowing what you are talking about. That money goes into the general fund and is spent, not invested.

Although often raided (which of course I oppose) the fund does draw interest.

And abortion is not a choice that affects only the woman. There is another human being involved who is killed. What you are saying is that you are ok with abortion because you are no longer in danger of being aborted. Your position is hypocritical through and through. Like vyo says, your argument is a mess.

KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL! I know. I was discussing the difference with USMC between everybody being affected by a financial decision of choice and the personal smaller number affected by a woman and pro-choice.

Look my friend I'm a father of two daughters in their early to late 20's. Neither have had and abortion. My older daughter has had a fairly late term miscarriage but now has a 6 year old son... my grandson. We are very close, we talk or see each other daily. I know their feelings & positions well. You're making no headway with me. The United States Supreme Court ruling on choice is the best result for what I'm sure everyone sees as a very unfortunate situation that should definitely try to be avoided.

 

[top gun]

Top gun, your argument is a mess. I'm all for women having equal rights, but a necessary part of the word equal is that we evaluate every case without thought to gender bias. Once a fetus has been created it isn't just the woman's body anymore - the unborn baby is a person too, and no one's put forth a convincing argument otherwise. By allowing all manner of abortions to continue unfettered we'd just be setting up the next group of discriminated people - unborn children.

I'm not saying all abortion should be summarily banned. There certainly are some scenarios where it would be a necessity.

Well and of course you have the right of dissent and I would not want it any other way. Of course I also have no idea of how much you were really "on the fence" before.

My position remains. Under the law no one is ever forced my another person to have an abortion and the reverse should also continue to be true.

The problem... one of the many problems... of saying... There certainly are some scenarios where it would be a necessity is this. Then women have to start lying that they were raped or had incest committed upon them which opens up another whole can of worms or as I've said before they go the self mutilation road. It's not a perfect world I wish it were.

 

[vyo476]

The problem... one of the many problems... of saying... There certainly are some scenarios where it would be a necessity is this. Then women have to start lying that they were raped or had incest committed upon them which opens up another whole can of worms or as I've said before they go the self mutilation road. It's not a perfect world I wish it were.

It isn't a perfect world, but instead of supporting fully legalized abortion we could see what we could do to attack the heart of the problem - in other words, discuss how to make abortion unnecessary (you know, except in those special circumstances).

I'm talking better, more available contraception and much better sexual education for teenagers. Abstinence-only education is a joke, only I'm pretty sure no one's laughing.

Another thing (and this is just something that's been kicking around in the back of my head) that might help would be to start to break down some of the taboo that surrounds sexual activity. Yes, it's a private thing, but if discussion of it could be conducted comfortably then a lot of the mistakes people make with it could be remedied.