Abortion

[Coyote]

Scott Peterson is getting the chair. Is that fair when a girl put her baby in a dumpster and not get a murder charge?

I believe Peterson murdered his wife.

You have to point out the specific case in regards to the latter.


So, what should the man get? I find it interesting you seem to focus only on penalties for the woman.

 

[top gun]

So. Does one human being's "right" to not be inconvenienced really outweigh another human being's actual right to live?

The reality is no one can really control what another does with their own body. Women miscarry everyday. Endangering a womans life by making a safe medical procedure go back into the alley is something that should never even be considered again.

It's a tough decision but in the end it's a decision the pregnant woman must be allowed to make. Not the government.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

The reality is no one can really control what another does with their own body.

We're not trying to tell her what to do with her own body, only the baby's body. If she wants to get fat by overeating, or get a thousand tatoos or piercings -- power to her, but she has no right to kill an innocent child.

Women miscarry everyday. Endangering a womans life by making a safe medical procedure go back into the alley is something that should never even be considered again.

It's a tough decision but in the end it's a decision the pregnant woman must be allowed to make. Not the government.

Or perhaps the women should exercise a little bit of responsibility.

 

[Coyote]

We're not trying to tell her what to do with her own body, only the baby's body. If she wants to get fat by overeating, or get a thousand tatoos or piercings -- power to her, but she has no right to kill an innocent child.



Or perhaps the women should exercise a little bit of responsibility.

Or maybe the man should keep his pants zipped.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

Or maybe the man should keep his pants zipped.

Or just slip a condom on. But then again, this is supposedly about "women's right to chose" thus apparently men have no say so their responsibility isn't an issue.

 

[Coyote]

Or just slip a condom on. But then again, this is supposedly about "women's right to chose" thus apparently men have no say so their responsibility isn't an issue.

They're part of the problem and they form a significant portion of those attempting to legislate a woman's body.

 

[palerider]

Unreported to law enforcement.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html
http://www.sccadvasa.org/articles/63.pdf

And if these rapes are unreported, on what are they based. If these rapes were reported to anyone and whoever recieved the information didn't forward it to law enforcement, then the one who recieved the information became a criminal.

 

[palerider]

The reality is no one can really control what another does with their own body. Women miscarry everyday. Endangering a womans life by making a safe medical procedure go back into the alley is something that should never even be considered again.

It's a tough decision but in the end it's a decision the pregnant woman must be allowed to make. Not the government.

In reality, no one can be prevented from killing another if they set their mind to it. Should we strike all laws that pertain to killing off the books because we can't really stop the killing anyway?..or are those laws on the books to punish killers more than to actually stop killers?

It is a tough decision to kill anyone but in the end, it is the decision of the one who kills. Are you suggesting that it is a decision between the one who kills and the one being killed and the government shoud simply get out of the business of punishing killers?

 

[Coyote]

And if these rapes are unreported, on what are they based. If these rapes were reported to anyone and whoever recieved the information didn't forward it to law enforcement, then the one who recieved the information became a criminal.

Not if the victim refuses to press charges, which is often the case.

 

[palerider]

Not if the victim refuses to press charges, which is often the case.

It is a crime not to report it. The victim doesn't have to press charges, but if someone else learns of it, and fails to report it, they, in reality, become an accessory.

Statistics on the number of times a crime was not reported seem very dubious and subject to the whims of the one who is creating the statistic. There is little there to be believed and no evidence to support them.

It calls back to the myth of the "coathanger" and the thousands who died in back alley abortions. Decades later, the one who started the myth stepped up and admitted that it was all just made up. That there was little evidence, if any, to support the claim and that the vast majority of abortions were performed in doctor's offices, by licenced doctors who were willing to perform them. The very doctors who dropped their regular practices and became abortion clinics the day after roe was decided.

 

[Coyote]

It is a crime not to report it. The victim doesn't have to press charges, but if someone else learns of it, and fails to report it, they, in reality, become an accessory.

Whether it is a crime or not, and whether some fails to report it or not - is irrelevant. Rape is traumatic, violent, and frightening. Many women choose not to report it because it is a violation of the most intimate nature or because they are frightened or have been threatened. If a woman was raped, and her life or family and the rapist made threats against her life or -more important - her family should she report it, she may think twice about making an official report.

Statistics on the number of times a crime was not reported seem very dubious and subject to the whims of the one who is creating the statistic. There is little there to be believed and no evidence to support them.

You consider the USDoJ subject to whims?

It calls back to the myth of the "coathanger" and the thousands who died in back alley abortions. Decades later, the one who started the myth stepped up and admitted that it was all just made up. That there was little evidence, if any, to support the claim and that the vast majority of abortions were performed in doctor's offices, by licenced doctors who were willing to perform them. The very doctors who dropped their regular practices and became abortion clinics the day after roe was decided.

Just because someone started what they believed was a "myth" doesn't mean it was a myth. Doctors providing illegal abortions charged a tremendous financial price, limiting avaiability to those who could afford to pay. For a poor woman, that wasn't an option and I'm sure dirty, cheap alternatives with a high mortality risk were all that was available. This is reflected today in many third world countries where abortion is either illegal or medical facilities scarce.

I looked to try and find some relatively unbiased sources (from neither pro-choice or pro-life camps) and came up with the following on "back alley" abortions.

From http://www.answers.com/topic/unsafe-abortion:

Unsafe abortion is a significant cause of maternal mortality and morbidity in the world, especially in developing countries (95% of unsafe abortions take place in developing countries).

Every year, 40 million induced abortions occur globally (IPAS) and according to the 2000 estimates (WHO) 19 million unsafe abortions take place each year. According to WHO around 68,000 women die as a result of complications of unsafe abortion and between two million and seven million women each year survive unsafe abortion but sustain long-term damage or disease (incomplete abortion, infection (sepsis), haemorrhage and injury to the internal organs, such as puncturing or tearing of the uterus).(IPAS) According to WHO statistics, one in ten pregnancies ends in an unsafe abortion. The risk rate for unsafe abortion is 1/270, but according to other sources unsafe abortion is responsible for one in eight maternal deaths.

Unsafe Abortion: Mortality and Risk Estimates of Death data from WHO press, Geneva, 1997 Region
​

 

[palerider]

Whether it is a crime or not, and whether some fails to report it or not - is irrelevant. Rape is traumatic, violent, and frightening. Many women choose not to report it because it is a violation of the most intimate nature or because they are frightened or have been threatened.

The point is that statistics about unreported events are hardly reliable enough to base a position upon.

Just because someone started what they believed was a "myth" doesn't mean it was a myth. Doctors providing illegal abortions charged a tremendous financial price, limiting avaiability to those who could afford to pay. For a poor woman, that wasn't an option and I'm sure dirty, cheap alternatives with a high mortality risk were all that was available. This is reflected today in many third world countries where abortion is either illegal or medical facilities scarce.

Once again, you have no evidence that coud be claimed to be even remotely reliable to back up such a statement. The fact that you continue to believe in the myth when the man who invented it admitted to making it up is testament to the strength of myth.

I looked to try and find some relatively unbiased sources (from neither pro-choice or pro-life camps) and came up with the following on "back alley" abortions.

All abortions are unsafe. It is a dangerous proceedure and a startling number of women die or experience permanant injury every year in this country and yet, pro choice advocates continue to champion the "cause" because their god requires the sacrifice.

It is interesting, and ironic, to note that many of those who champion pro choice can be also found among those who would make restaurants and businesses smoke free, and put a fat tax on certain foods, and champion all sorts of activities that they woud claim are unsafe.

The question was, however, "Does one human being's fabricated "right" to not be inconvenienced outweigh another human being's very real right to live?

 

[Coyote]

The point is that statistics about unreported events are hardly reliable enough to base a position upon.

I think the source has to be considered. Just because it isn't reported to law enforcement doesn't mean it does not get reported to rape and domestic crisis counseling agencies for example, or other groups. I tend to think that statistics from the DoJ are likely to be a fairly accurate estimate - certainly enough to base a position in when considering rape.

Once again, you have no evidence that coud be claimed to be even remotely reliable to back up such a statement. The fact that you continue to believe in the myth when the man who invented it admitted to making it up is testament to the strength of myth.

I provided modern day evidence of what happens when abortionis illegal and/or medical facilities are sparse. What makes you think the situation would have been any different for poor or even middle class women prior to Roe vs. Wade, in the US? Thus far, I think I have provided more evidence then you have.

All abortions are unsafe. It is a dangerous proceedure and a startling number of women die or experience permanant injury every year in this country and yet, pro choice advocates continue to champion the "cause" because their god requires the sacrifice.

Mortality and health risks from abortion is appreciably lower than that of childbirth (the risks depend on gestational age).

For example:

In American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology
January 2006
Dr. David Grimes (MD) notes the following:

The comparative safety of pregnancy outcomes has clinical and public health importance. Using national statistics for 1991 to 1999, I estimated the risk of maternal death associated with various outcomes. Abortion (legal and spontaneous) was associated with the lowest risk, live birth intermediate risk, and ectopic pregnancy and fetal death the highest risk.​

Mortality and health risks have also significantly diminished over the years (particulary after 1980) with better anesthesia and practices and remain less then those associated with childbirth until you get into later gestational age.

What god? We're talking about a diety here?

It is interesting, and ironic, to note that many of those who champion pro choice can be also found among those who would make restaurants and businesses smoke free, and put a fat tax on certain foods, and champion all sorts of activities that they woud claim are unsafe.

Irrelevent to this debate. A logical fallacy known as "poisoning the well".



(are you suggesting I don't have a right to sue McDonalds because I can't stop stuffing supersized baconcheeseburgerfrenchfriechocolateshake combo meals in my face?)

 

[Coyote]

The question was, however, "Does one human being's fabricated "right" to not be inconvenienced outweigh another human being's very real right to live?

No. The question was: Does a person have a right to control their what happens to their own body? Who owns your body? You? The state? Some religious group? The baby growing inside you?

 

[top gun]

In reality, no one can be prevented from killing another if they set their mind to it. Should we strike all laws that pertain to killing off the books because we can't really stop the killing anyway?..or are those laws on the books to punish killers more than to actually stop killers?

It is a tough decision to kill anyone but in the end, it is the decision of the one who kills. Are you suggesting that it is a decision between the one who kills and the one being killed and the government shoud simply get out of the business of punishing killers?

There is legal killing in our society. There is war. There is the death penalty. There is even euthanasia in some medical cases. I could make a case right there and say all or none but that is really not where I draw my conclusion from.

My conclusion comes from this. Abortions especially early term abortions (which I personally would hope all abortions would be) are a situation where life cannot exist outside of the womb. The womb is the mothers ergo the deciding factor. And once again the difference and proof of intent between throwing yourself down the stairs and accidentally tripping can produce the exact same result.

I think abortion is a burden that must always be left to the mind of the mother. Not me... not you... not the government... the person presented with the condition.