Abortion: Right or Wrong?

[palerider]

To kill or not, and therein lies the issue of power. Women want that power and you want to take it from them. This is a power struggle in which both sides feel that they have the right to control others.

Finish the sentence. Women want the power to kill their unborn children without legal consequence for any or no reason. No one else can claim the right to kill another human being for any or no reason. You seem to be all about special rights and will twist logic into a literal pretzel in order to justify your wants.

 

[palerider]

Picture this

A woman gets off the bus and enters a clinic, she is there for some time (whos turn is it to time events?) she exits, gets a cab (or?) and leaves,
Now I ask you, what just happened? and is it anybodys business?

A woman gets off a bus and enters a clinic. She is there for some time, she exits, gets a cab and leaves. Now I ask, what just happened? And is it any body's business?

The next person who enters the clinic finds the receptionist dead at her desk and the staff of 11 dead throughout the building. In a room near the back, there are 12 dead unborns at various stages of development.

The staff has been killing all morning and the woman came in and killed some more? Is any of thie killing anyone's business? The answer is yes. All killing is everyone's business. The woman who killed the staff rightly deserves to be punished to the full extent of the law for killing for reasons other than self defense and the staff also deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law for reasons other than self defense.

Whatever happened to ultimate individual sovergnty and LIBERTY.

Yep, whatever happened to it. The child is an individual and is exactly as human as its mother. What has happened to individual soveriegnty when mom can simply kill the child for any or no reason without legal consequence?

Far too many things are legislated because its in the interest of somebodys MORAL standard to force everybody to behave a certan way.

Do you object to laws that make rape, assault, and other sorts of killing illegal because they enforce someone's "moral" standard or are you just fine with laws that protect you and "just happen" to enforce someone else's moral standard?

 

[The Scotsman]

A human being is a human being.

.... not the point in my oppinion. Okay in for penny in for a pound as they say - Look to me a bundle of cells tucked snuggly into some lasses inner bits aren't a "person" agreed they're human cells but not a "person". Point here I guess is your and my perspectives are obviously different.

The real question is what gives one human being the right to kill another human being for any or no reason without legal consequence?

....simple...the law! Because abortions are legal!

Of course they looked in all manner of places for a justification to make abortion legal. They had to since there is no such provision in the US Consitution where they are sworn to look. They had an agenda that they intended to push before the first word of testimony was ever heard and they went to any source available at which they believed that they could get a plausible justification.

...Ah c'mon that's not the way your Justice system works and you know it! If you were talking of some hick court in Cowpat, Iowa maybe but not from the Supremes!

 

[arbitor]

what are you talking about? its legal therefore its ok?! slavery was legal too once you know. did that make it any less evil?

 

[The Scotsman]

what are you talking about? its legal therefore its ok?! slavery was legal too once you know. did that make it any less evil?

.....tell you what then if in two hundred years time abortion is illegal I'll come back here and you can be all smug and I'll moan and groan coz its not fair - okay for you?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Finish the sentence. Women want the power to kill their unborn children without legal consequence for any or no reason. No one else can claim the right to kill another human being for any or no reason. You seem to be all about special rights and will twist logic into a literal pretzel(you missed a heck of a good chance here, Pale, when you didn't use the term "liberal pretzel") in order to justify your wants.

And you seem to be on a police-state power trip like Ceaucesceu who mandated a death sentence for any woman who got an abortion. Worked good too, as I recall.

Like I said, Pale, you convinced me, it's the woman's baby, a parasite inside her body and she should have the right to kill it if she wishes. She also has the right to stand before God on judgment day and explain her decision. In my opinion YOU don't have the right to tell her NO. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord, I will repay. It ain't your job to be the world's policeman, put your ego back in its cup and pay attention to the beam in your own eye.

 

[palerider]

.... not the point in my oppinion. Okay in for penny in for a pound as they say - Look to me a bundle of cells tucked snuggly into some lasses inner bits aren't a "person" agreed they're human cells but not a "person". Point here I guess is your and my perspectives are obviously different.

Aren't a person? What is a person? What do you think makes a person?

The business of being a person, like being a human being, is a matter of kind, and not degree. Person is a word that we use to describe a human being but unlike infant, zygote, toddler, fetus, teenager, embryo, and old geezer, it covers the span of a human being's life rather than a specific period. A person is the kind of creature that you are, not something that you can become.

Allow me to explain. If being a person, or a human being were a matter of the degree to which you have manifested your potential, then those who manifest more potential would be more human or more person than those who manifest less potential. No one denies that an infant is both a human being and a person even though they are far from mature and whether they grow up to be a nuclear engineer with an IQ of 175 or a Down's victim with an IQ of 35, the two are equally human and equally persons. There is nothing that you can do to make yourself more human or more of a person because that is simply what you are. By the same token, you can't be un humaned or un personed no matter what may befall you that results in a lesser manifiestation of your potential.

If you are unable to adequately defend your "perspective" of what value is it exactly?

....simple...the law! Because abortions are legal!

In this country there is no law making abortion legal. There is a court decision which is probably why the issue is so devisive. In europe, the duely elected legislators wrote law that made abortion legal thus effectively giving the people their say. No such thing happened here. Nine unelected, unaccountable robed justices made the decision for us.

...Ah c'mon that's not the way your Justice system works and you know it! If you were talking of some hick court in Cowpat, Iowa maybe but not from the Supremes!

Then you are not very familiar with our legal system. The majority of the unconstitutional, imposed liberalism that we live with in this country is forced upon us by the courts because little, if any of it would make it through the congress and the senate. The supreme court, in the past, has been as guilty of judicial activism as any hick court in Cowpat, Iowa.

 

[palerider]

Like I said, Pale, you convinced me, it's the woman's baby, a parasite inside her body and she should have the right to kill it if she wishes.

In typical fashion, you couldn't be more wrong. Perhaps in other countries a woman may own her child because in other countries the law doesn't prohibit the ownership of one human being by another. Alas, in this country, you can not own another human being. And if you knew anything at all, you wouldn't even try to compare an unborn with a parasite. In this, as with everything, you base your position on ignorance, misunderstanding, and deliberate misrepresentation.

She also has the right to stand before God on judgment day and explain her decision. In my opinion YOU don't have the right to tell her NO.

Following that deficient logic, all murderers, thieves, and rapists have the right to stand before God on judgement day and explain thier decisions and none of us have the right to tell them NO while they are here. Of course, in your hypocritical way, you don't feel that way and are perfectly fine with telling people who might hurt you NO. Isn't that right. In fact, you are perfectly fine with asking for special rights that none of the rest of us have based on something so trivial as sexual preference.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord, I will repay. It ain't your job to be the world's policeman, put your ego back in its cup and pay attention to the beam in your own eye.

If you want to play Bible verses, you are going to come out on the short end of the stick. You might start with Romans 13 where you are instructed to submit yourself to the governing authorities. So when Roe is overturned as some 200 other cases have been overturned, if you are really a bible thumper, you won't have any problem submitting will you?

 

[palerider]

.....tell you what then if in two hundred years time abortion is illegal I'll come back here and you can be all smug and I'll moan and groan coz its not fair - okay for you?

200 years? You haven't been paying attention have you? Not very long ago, the court upheld a ban on late term abortion and openly invited states to further restrict abortion. There are a number of cases winding their way through the lower courts at this time that are expected to be upheld by the new conservative majority in the court.

Not to mention the growing body of legal precedent for the legal personhood of the unborn.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Nine unelected, unaccountable robed justices made the decision for us.

Pretty annoying isn't it? Just like when a similar group of unaccountable robed justices made that monkey our President.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

In typical fashion, you couldn't be more wrong. Perhaps in other countries a woman may own her child because in other countries the law doesn't prohibit the ownership of one human being by another. Alas, in this country, you can not own another human being. And if you knew anything at all, you wouldn't even try to compare an unborn with a parasite. In this, as with everything, you base your position on ignorance, misunderstanding, and deliberate misrepresentation.

Following that deficient logic, all murderers, thieves, and rapists have the right to stand before God on judgement day and explain thier decisions and none of us have the right to tell them NO while they are here. Of course, in your hypocritical way, you don't feel that way and are perfectly fine with telling people who might hurt you NO. Isn't that right. In fact, you are perfectly fine with asking for special rights that none of the rest of us have based on something so trivial as sexual preference.

If you want to play Bible verses, you are going to come out on the short end of the stick. You might start with Romans 13 where you are instructed to submit yourself to the governing authorities. So when Roe is overturned as some 200 other cases have been overturned, if you are really a bible thumper, you won't have any problem submitting will you?

You keep trying to make this a contest--your Scriptures are better than mine--when in fact this is NOT a contest. The Bible is such a confused mass/mess of conflicting rules, laws, suggestions, and prohibitions that no one has been able to say for certainty what it actually says/means for two thousand years, that's why the Christian religion has been splitting into new sects at the rate of almost 2 per year since Christianity was invented.

It's irrelevant that our laws prohibit a person from owning another person since the Bible ALLOWS ownership of persons and even allows the passing of that ownership to one's progeny. It also allows the killing of slaves with no punishment under certain circumstances, and it allows the selling of children.

I know you don't like the "parasite" comparison, but it's technically true if you go and look up the word. It is even more true if the woman involved doesn't want that "thing" growing in her body. I didn't say I agreed with this outlook, I just said it's technically true and I disagree with your incessant attempt to gain power over others and force them to bend to your religious tenets.

Poor Pale, almost every post you call me ignorant or stupid or ill-informed, but yet you continue to try to convince me that your police-state theocracy is a good idea and all you do is prove over and over again that any government that you design would be a kakistocracy (government by the people least suited to govern) since you are on a religious power trip which you vainly try to hide behind a fog of other arguments.

Oh yeah, I like the "all murderers, theives, and rapists..." argument. When the thief or murderer or rapist is INSIDE your body, living in your most intimate parts, leaching off your blood supply, and putting your very life at risk, THEN your argument will carry some weight with me. Until then it's just another specious example like your insistence that homosexual people should not have equality. Loving relationships between consenting adults should be legal, anything else is religious bigotry since there is no rational reason for not recognizing them--as has been amply demonstrated by the countries that do recognize them.

I find you an interesting study, my Pale friend (using the term "friend" somewhat loosely), in that your monomania about other people's sex lives is more intense than any other Christian I have personally spoken to or corresponded with in my life. I have met others with the same drive for power and control that you exhibit, but never one so tightly focused on regulating what others do with their sexual organs.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

200 years? You haven't been paying attention have you? Not very long ago, the court upheld a ban on late term abortion and openly invited states to further restrict abortion. There are a number of cases winding their way through the lower courts at this time that are expected to be upheld by the new conservative majority in the court.

Not to mention the growing body of legal precedent for the legal personhood of the unborn.

It is unfortunately true that the Bible-beaters will probably get safe, legal, abortions outlawed and thus they will have their revenge--mostly on poor women--who will die from back-alley abortions. According to my brother this is nothing more than what they deserve, God's justice meted out by the hand of the Pale's of the religious world, doing God's Work.

The upside is that RU-486 and other things like it are becoming more and more commonly available and at some point--thanks to the internet--we won't all be required to run the religious gauntlet of Pale-look-a-likes in order to live our lives. I think the moring after pills will put the Pales out of business--except of course for their incessant attempts to get the manufacture of those drugs banned. Just think, RU-486 could be the new marijuana.

 

[The Scotsman]

Aren't a person? What is a person? What do you think makes a person?

What a great and truly complex question - trouble is that for the purposes of this debate and my position it has a simple answer, a person is one that lives when extracted from its mother; if it lives its a person, if it doesn't it ain't. Doctors and medical science can keep alive such tiny wee mites nowadays its amazing, unfortunately there comes a point where its just not possible and I guess for me that's where one draws a line. Okay I can hear the philosophical and religious arguments about personhood yadda yadda yadda but in the context of my belief in the rights of women its not relevant to me - don't get me wrong I know it is to you though and respect that difference

Then you are not very familiar with our legal system.

mea maxima culpa Can't keep up with every development on the planet

abortions outlawed and thus they will have their revenge--mostly on poor women--who will die from back-alley abortions.

......who in some cases are the lucky ones. Agreed MT the whole topic of back street abortions is quite horrific.

 

[palerider]

Pretty annoying isn't it? Just like when a similar group of unaccountable robed justices made that monkey our President.

And once more you prove beyond any doubt that you don't have a clue. Do you even know what the supreme court said in the case of bush v gore? They said that the florida supreme court could not change the rules of an election in the middle of the game.

 

[arbitor]

1)you understand NOTHING about the bible mare. so quit talking like you do.
2) we arent controlling their organs. we didnt make them get themselves knocked up. not letting them kill the child is not the same as makeing them have kids.
3) if we shouldnt have laws on based on religion than why do we have laws at all. morals can all be traced to religion.
3) once again you selfishly think of ONLY the womans rights and not the helpless childs. you hide behind your PATHETIC exuses. how sad.